Unsolved Karmein Chan

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raven echo

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I was just reading more about this case last night.

The reoffending thing is interesting as the EARONS did the same thing, and many links have already been drawn between the two.
So much so that VicPol looked into the possibility the Golden State Killer and Mr Cruel were the same person.
 

JWS2019

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Man I would like to see this one solved along with most of the population. Just commenting to bump.

Also just listened to a couple of Andrew rule podcasts speaking to Damien Marrett who worked on the case for a time.

Couple of comments to note that are news to me, from him and some digging around his name on the case.

1. His thoughts are that Mr Cruel has either suicided or since died
2. They investigated suicides in the time after her death to see if anything came up on potential suspects
3. Houses where checked in the area at the time under the guise of detectives working for water and sewerage company (planned In conjunction with council as it was something they were checking at the time) so that they could check as many houses as they could without a warrant for each
4. Investigations on known pedophiles was in depth and he commented that it was quite a shock to see the sheer number rock spiders needed to be ticked off the list
 

kickazz

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Man I would like to see this one solved along with most of the population. Just commenting to bump.

Also just listened to a couple of Andrew rule podcasts speaking to Damien Marrett who worked on the case for a time.

Couple of comments to note that are news to me, from him and some digging around his name on the case.

1. His thoughts are that Mr Cruel has either suicided or since died
2. They investigated suicides in the time after her death to see if anything came up on potential suspects
3. Houses where checked in the area at the time under the guise of detectives working for water and sewerage company (planned In conjunction with council as it was something they were checking at the time) so that they could check as many houses as they could without a warrant for each
4. Investigations on known pedophiles was in depth and he commented that it was quite a shock to see the sheer number rock spiders needed to be ticked off the list
Surprised he admitted to number 3, doesn't sound particularly legal.
 

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JWS2019

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An overview of suspects from April 2016 news article:

1. Brian Alan Elkner – self confirmed suspect lives in Thornbury

2. 66 at time of article approx 70 today - lived in Eltham at the time of attacks, then moved to box hill, owned businesses in Mont Albert North, then moved to Lake Cathie, then married a Canadian moved to Canada
3. Name changed by deed poll 1988, has changed his name twice- lives in musk near Daylesford
4. Died in 2015 at age 66 lived in Knoxfield at time of attacks
5. lived in Balwyn at time of attacks
6. barely resides at his harcourt home - usually in Melbourne
7. no one has seen, formerly resided in glen iris aged at 67 at time of article and would be approx 71 now if alive.


 

Kangapirate

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I doubt he suicided, it’s possible he is dead. If he is still alive he has been squeaky clean since 91. This person could be the friendly bloke living in your street and you would be none the wiser.

I too am desperate to see this one solved, being 7 years old in grade 1 at the time it was absolutely frightening.
 

JWS2019

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I doubt he suicided, it’s possible he is dead. If he is still alive he has been squeaky clean since 91. This person could be the friendly bloke living in your street and you would be none the wiser.

I too am desperate to see this one solved, being 7 years old in grade 1 at the time it was absolutely frightening.
Yep!!! Me too same age Mr cruel was a constant topic in the family through fear and being in the news etc.
 

JWS2019

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I doubt he suicided, it’s possible he is dead. If he is still alive he has been squeaky clean since 91. This person could be the friendly bloke living in your street and you would be none the wiser.

I too am desperate to see this one solved, being 7 years old in grade 1 at the time it was absolutely frightening.
Tim Watson-Munro who profiled Mr Cruel has recently spoke of the fact that he was not solely a child rapist - and there were cases connected one being an elderly nun and some other adult rape cases.

I do wonder if this may have damaged the case from the public’s perspective as I’ve only known his MO to be child abduction and rape.
 

johnymac1

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An overview of suspects from April 2016 news article:

1. Brian Alan Elkner – self confirmed suspect lives in Thornbury

2. 66 at time of article approx 70 today - lived in Eltham at the time of attacks, then moved to box hill, owned businesses in Mont Albert North, then moved to Lake Cathie, then married a Canadian moved to Canada
3. Name changed by deed poll 1988, has changed his name twice- lives in musk near Daylesford
4. Died in 2015 at age 66 lived in Knoxfield at time of attacks
5. lived in Balwyn at time of attacks
6. barely resides at his harcourt home - usually in Melbourne
7. no one has seen, formerly resided in glen iris aged at 67 at time of article and would be approx 71 now if alive.


He could be none of these, most of these suspects seem to old for the description of MrC

Is it possible he's fled to an Asian country? lot of nasty dudes opperating in places like Thailand and Philippines.
 

JWS2019

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He could be none of these, most of these suspects seem to old for the description of MrC

Is it possible he's fled to an Asian country? lot of nasty dudes opperating in places like Thailand and Philippines.
I thought it was interesting that the age of potential suspects are all pretty much the same age give or take a year.

This would give the average age say 70 right now and born around 1950.

Noting Mr cruel associated attacks:
1. 1st victim: 22 August 1987
2. Sharon: 27 December 1988
3. Nicola: 3 July 1990
4. Karmein: Died: 13 April 1991

Estimate age at event based on suspects average date of birth if 1950:

1. 37
2. 38
3. 40
4. 41

I agree potentially a bit older than what all of the victims stated.
 

JWS2019

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He could be none of these, most of these suspects seem to old for the description of MrC

Is it possible he's fled to an Asian country? lot of nasty dudes opperating in places like Thailand and Philippines.
And on the nasty dudes that have fled... yes could well be.

I believe Scully has been ruled out due to not being in the area... would need to check that is accurate. He was born in 1963 and would have been 24 at time of first attack..
 

Hard Ball Get

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Are all these suspects 'nasty' people and investigators looked into them because of that, or were they 'regular guys' who potentially have done horrible things outside of what friends and family know them for and did something to catch the eye of detectives?

For some reason I feel as though this was the work of someone who is seen as a valued person in society - not a known horrible human being.
 

johnymac1

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So how do police find MrC?



Locate the House

The house must have come up for sale by now.

Produce a better digital picture of his bathroom and bed room. Info provided from victim descriptions. Distributing this new picture to all real estate agents across Melbourne. And see if the agents remember something. This its a long shot, as he may not be the owner the house. Or even could be from out of town.



Call for Witnesses

A plea to other witnesses or victims to come forward. Surely somebody must remember something odd about these dates. A family member going missing for a few days. Or acting strangely after.



Suspect Identification

These seven suspects were likely taped in interview. Possibly police could run these recording past the surviving victims. Although this will be distressing for the victim. It may identify the culprit by his voice. But its likely its none of the seven top suspects.
 

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sprockets

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So how do police find MrC?



Locate the House

The house must have come up for sale by now.

Produce a better digital picture of his bathroom and bed room. Info provided from victim descriptions. Distributing this new picture to all real estate agents across Melbourne. And see if the agents remember something. This its a long shot, as he may not be the owner the house. Or even could be from out of town.



Call for Witnesses

A plea to other witnesses or victims to come forward. Surely somebody must remember something odd about these dates. A family member going missing for a few days. Or acting strangely after.



Suspect Identification

These seven suspects were likely taped in interview. Possibly police could run these recording past the surviving victims. Although this will be distressing for the victim. It may identify the culprit by his voice. But its likely its none of the seven top suspects.
I'm not totally across the case but if there are only 7 suspects you'd think police would know the layout of their houses.
 

johnymac1

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Kurve

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Kurve

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This in his history is not inconsistent with an offender who targets the weak.


Forensic psychologist Tim Watson-Munro, who worked on the Mr Cruel case, told Mallett he did not believe the offender had a specific attraction to prepubescent children.

Watson-Munro said investigators had asked him to profile Mr Cruel's offending, which included previous sexual assaults of adult women not known to the public.

In one of those attacks Mr Cruel had raped an elderly nun then driven her car to a bank where he used her ATM card to steal her savings.

'There were a number of other crimes involving the detention and rape of adult women,' Watson-Munro told Mallett.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-Mr-Cruel-raped-old-nun-abducting-girls.html
 

BonzaRam

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Man I would like to see this one solved along with most of the population. Just commenting to bump.

Also just listened to a couple of Andrew rule podcasts speaking to Damien Marrett who worked on the case for a time.

Couple of comments to note that are news to me, from him and some digging around his name on the case.

1. His thoughts are that Mr Cruel has either suicided or since died
2. They investigated suicides in the time after her death to see if anything came up on potential suspects
3. Houses where checked in the area at the time under the guise of detectives working for water and sewerage company (planned In conjunction with council as it was something they were checking at the time) so that they could check as many houses as they could without a warrant for each
4. Investigations on known pedophiles was in depth and he commented that it was quite a shock to see the sheer number rock spiders needed to be ticked off the list
You might find this interesting


"However, one suspect was detained in 2013 that ultimately could have been Mr. Cruel. Robert Keith Knight was a man who had made a living as a youth worker and school volunteer, but had been arrested on two separate occasions for a variety of crimes against children. In 1980 and 1996, Knight had been arrested and convicted for sexual assaults on minors, and a multitude of other victims had come out of the woodwork following his convictions.

According to the original Operation Spectrum investigators, Robert Keith Knight was one of their suspects that had never quite panned out, but investigators had been unable to eliminate him from contention. He remained a person of interest throughout the following investigations, and the time of the Mr. Cruel assaults would coincide with his post-1980 conviction release.

After being released from prison for his 1996 conviction in 2009, Knight began to amass thousands of child pornography images, and he was later detained in an investigation by Victorian police. He plead guilty to the overwhelming evidence, and while awaiting trial, he leaped from a second-story prison railing to his death-by-suicide.

So he is just one of the many suspects that the Victorian police force have had to this day, and they have refused to make much more information public."

____________________________________________________________________________________

More about Knight here


I suspect if he was still alive that he left Victoria after the murder of Karmein, possibly to SA...
 

BigPond101

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This in his history is not inconsistent with an offender who targets the weak.


Forensic psychologist Tim Watson-Munro, who worked on the Mr Cruel case, told Mallett he did not believe the offender had a specific attraction to prepubescent children.

Watson-Munro said investigators had asked him to profile Mr Cruel's offending, which included previous sexual assaults of adult women not known to the public.

In one of those attacks Mr Cruel had raped an elderly nun then driven her car to a bank where he used her ATM card to steal her savings.

'There were a number of other crimes involving the detention and rape of adult women,' Watson-Munro told Mallett.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-Mr-Cruel-raped-old-nun-abducting-girls.html
How do they know its the same person? The police must have so much information they havn't released which could help

Look at the EARONs case in America, a victim had him saying over and over again " I hate you Bonnie" during one of the attacks. The police never released that until decades later

Turns out he was engaged to a woman named Bonnie who dumped him before the marriage, then he went to her house in the middle of the night with a gun to try kidnap her. At this point the police should just release everything they know and maybe it will trigger something
 

Kurve

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How do they know its the same person? The police must have so much information they havn't released which could help

Look at the EARONs case in America, a victim had him saying over and over again " I hate you Bonnie" during one of the attacks. The police never released that until decades later

Turns out he was engaged to a woman named Bonnie who dumped him before the marriage, then he went to her house in the middle of the night with a gun to try kidnap her. At this point the police should just release everything they know and maybe it will trigger something
Agree, it will be thirty years since Karmein was taken in 8 months and well over that since he started offending. Investigators could make one last really strong try at identifying him and release what they've got, not all if they have to keep something back but most of it.

I found a new pod last night that had a bit more information than I knew about, he was a monster and it's hard to understand with all the advances in forensics and DNA science that he still can't be found. Was he really that smart?

 

BonzaRam

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Agree, it will be thirty years since Karmein was taken in 8 months and well over that since he started offending. Investigators could make one last really strong try at identifying him and release what they've got, not all if they have to keep something back but most of it.

I found a new pod last night that had a bit more information than I knew about, he was a monster and it's hard to understand with all the advances in forensics and DNA science that he still can't be found. Was he really that smart?

I read somewhere that evidence has disappeared, in particular the tape he used to tape their eyes closed. It has be suggested they may have been able get DNA off of that.

I also read he went to a great deal of effort to ensure the victims were showered and cleaned up, when dropped off they only had garbage bags as clothing, which implies he knew what they would be looking for.
 

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