Conspiracy Theory Kennedy Assassination - 50 years on

[Partridge]

Acquilla Clemons. Before the first shot, she observed two men standing near Officer Tippit's police car. She saw one of the men with a pistol, waving away the other, as he trotted toward Jefferson Street on the far side of the block.

The running man, the one she recalled as having shot the police officer, was in her words "kind of short, kind of heavy." The second man she recalled as tall and thin, wearing a white shirt and khaki slacks clothing which no other witnesses recalled Oswald wearing that day. Clemons said Dallas police officers told her not to tell anyone what she had seen lest she be killed, a familiar piece of law enforcement advice in Dallas that day.

Ah well that must settle it then. Forget the other witnesses who saw Oswald either a) shoot Tippit, or b) Oswald walking quickly from the scene with his gun in his hand. I would dismiss their testimony out of hand.

I would also dismiss immediately the forensic evidence that tied the bullets recovered from Tippit's body to Oswald's gun (to the exclusion of all others). Hearsay really.

This is Conspiracy Theory 101 - debunk and nitpick minor parts of the chain of events, but fail to provide an alternative.

So the floor is yours.

If Oswald was innocent, or framed, or both. What happened? By whom? In what order?

Go for it....

 

[Partridge]

I wouldn't be surprised at all, if the whole truth ever came out and all the facts came to light, that somehow officer Tippit was more involved in the events of that day than most people realise
In fact, with the witnesses who came out and said that two gunmen were at the scene of his death, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to begin to think Tippit was set up, maybe because he was involved in the assassination himself somehow
An interesting thought

Well we've been waiting 50 years, so they're not exactly rushing to get the "whole truth" out there.

Either that of course or - imagine this - there might actually not be a conspiracy.

 

[Glacier]

Well we've been waiting 50 years, so they're not exactly rushing to get the "whole truth" out there.

Either that of course or - imagine this - there might actually not be a conspiracy.

So what you refuse to acknowledge is that Tippit and Oswald were commonly seen dining together by multiple witnesses in the months leading up to the assassination ?

 

[Glacier]

Ah well that must settle it then. Forget the other witnesses who saw Oswald either a) shoot Tippit, or b) Oswald walking quickly from the scene with his gun in his hand. I would dismiss their testimony out of hand.

I would also dismiss immediately the forensic evidence that tied the bullets recovered from Tippit's body to Oswald's gun (to the exclusion of all others). Hearsay really.

This is Conspiracy Theory 101 - debunk and nitpick minor parts of the chain of events, but fail to provide an alternative.

So the floor is yours.

If Oswald was innocent, or framed, or both. What happened? By whom? In what order?

Go for it....

Just a point
The bullets found in Tippit were never forensically matched to any gun of Oswalds
Also there was never any proof found on Oswald himself that he had fired any gun that day
Oswald and Tippit had previously been seen dining together many times and also I might add, been seen dining together in the presence of one Jack Ruby
Shall I continue ?

 

[Glacier]

Or we could also talk about witness Gordon Arnold who described his encounter with two policemen who he identified as officer Tippit and one Roscoe White who he says kicked him and confiscated his film of the motorcade on the spot
Or do we just dismiss him as another nutter because his testimony doesn't fit ?

 

[Partridge]

So what you refuse to acknowledge is that Tippit and Oswald were commonly seen dining together by multiple witnesses in the months leading up to the assassination ?

Says who? First I've heard of that.

Here's what we do know. When Oswald returned from Mexico City in September 1963 he lived at a rooming house. All the other tenants and landlady said to the FBI he had no visitors, kept to himself, and made one phone call a week and spoke in a foreign language (that sounds suspicious........must be a conspiracy!).

Oh s**t, hang on, his wife was Russian. Maybe not.

So no one contacted him, but via magical spells and incantations it was secretly arranged that he would be the fall guy for an assassination attempt.

Problem was, his fingerprints were found on the rifle tied to the bullets recovered from Kennedy, Connolly, and the car. His fingerprints were found all over boxes in the sniper's nest on the 6th floor. He worked in the building, had access to every floor, and was the only employee not accounted for 45 minutes afterwards when a roll call was taken. He was also spotted on the 6th floor 30 minutes before the assassination. Plus 3 other employees on the fifth floor heard a) shots being fired directly above them (three of them), and heard the bolt being released, and heard the casings hit the floor. Over 80% of the witnesses said they heard 3 shots from the direction of the sixth floor of the Book Depository.

However, that's too suspicious. It's much more logical to imagine a phantom shooter on the grassy knoll. Where there was no gun, no gunman, no bullets that hit anything (and from that distance that means missing Kennedy and his wife, Connolly and his wife, the secret service agents, the driver, all the bystanders, and the car (a pretty large object to a no doubt expert CIA / KGB / Government / Castro / Alien assassin).

And then of course, if the assassin happened to be stopped and queried by the closest policeman to the area, rather than think that a slightly deranged and armed guy (which he was) might panic and shoot the policeman, it's far more likely that they were close friends. Except there's no evidence of this.

Got a photo handy? Of them whispering sweet nothings in each other's ear? I thought not.

 

[Predator35]

I would also dismiss immediately the forensic evidence that tied the bullets recovered from Tippit's body to Oswald's gun (to the exclusion of all others). Hearsay really.

The bullets from Tippit were sent to the F.B.I. lab. But Special Agent Courtlandt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken from Lee Oswald

 

[Partridge]

Just a point
The bullets found in Tippit were never forensically matched to any gun of Oswalds
Also there was never any proof found on Oswald himself that he had fired any gun that day
Oswald and Tippit had previously been seen dining together many times and also I might add, been seen dining together in the presence of one Jack Ruby
Shall I continue ?

Yes they were.

Do you think if you keep repeating things it makes them more true?

 

[Partridge]

Or we could also talk about witness Gordon Arnold who described his encounter with two policemen who he identified as officer Tippit and one Roscoe White who he says kicked him and confiscated his film of the motorcade on the spot
Or do we just dismiss him as another nutter because his testimony doesn't fit ?

Absolutely. Talk about that witness.

Now it's my turn. Aside from that one witness, we also have Helen Markham, Virginia Davis, Barbara Davis, William Scoggins, Domingo Benavides, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Warren Reynolds, William Arthur Smith, B.M.Patterson and Jack Tatum, who all identified Oswald and only Oswald.

I'm guessing they were all lying / can't be trusted / imagining things / KGB plants / part of the conspiracy as well? Makes sense.

 

[Partridge]

The bullets from Tippit were sent to the F.B.I. lab. But Special Agent Courtlandt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken from Lee Oswald

And Joseph D.Nichol testified there were sufficient markings on one of the bullets to conclude it had been fired from Oswald's gun.

 

[Glacier]

Yes they were.

Do you think if you keep repeating things it makes them more true?

Read above
As for my other post re the relationship between Tippit and Oswald, Numerous witnesses stated seeing them together at Dobbs House restaurant in Dallas and together with Jack Ruby at the Pig and Whistle in Dallas
Now these reports are very easy to find, so for some interesting research and a bit of a mission, go have a search and a read and ask yourself " if this is true, what does it mean in the context of Tippit's involvement and the whole case"
Now I know you are a very good and intelligent poster, but it would be nice to find you don't have a closed mind to this
Also, while your at it, check out the problems and conflicting reports of the bullets in Tippit's body matching anything Oswald had, you might just find that the Warren Commission seem to have disregarded their own ballistic experts

 

[Glacier]

Absolutely. Talk about that witness.

Now it's my turn. Aside from that one witness, we also have Helen Markham, Virginia Davis, Barbara Davis, William Scoggins, Domingo Benavides, Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, Warren Reynolds, William Arthur Smith, B.M.Patterson and Jack Tatum, who all identified Oswald and only Oswald.

I'm guessing they were all lying / can't be trusted / imagining things / KGB plants / part of the conspiracy as well? Makes sense.

So if you have witnesses who say they saw Oswald and witnesses that say the man ( or men ) they saw was nothing like Oswald then does it not stand to reason that we may have a slight problem ?

 

[Glacier]

And Joseph D.Nichol testified there were sufficient markings on one of the bullets to conclude it had been fired from Oswald's gun.

Are you ignoring the fact that Tippit's body had bullets from two different guns and ballistic experts were unable to match them with any of Oswalds firearms?

 

[Partridge]

So if you have witnesses who say they saw Oswald and witnesses that say the man ( or men ) they saw was nothing like Oswald then does it not stand to reason that we may have a slight problem ?

Well when 10 eyewitnesses positively identify someone it's fairly compelling. When the guy they identify is carrying a gun that is tied to the murder that's compelling too. When the guy they identify pulls his gun on the cops who arrest him and punch one of them (remember, if he's innocent, why do that?), that's even more compelling.

Any theory provided is great, but until there is actual EVIDENCE - of any kind - that links other people to the assassination you have to go with what evidence there is. And all of it, circumstancial, character and especially physical - points to only one person.

 

[Partridge]

Are you ignoring the fact that Tippit's body had bullets from two different guns and ballistic experts were unable to match them with any of Oswalds firearms?

One ballistic expert did match them. I just wrote that.

Two different guns? One .38 calibre gun. Where did the two gun theory come from, I can't wait for this?

(I still think it was aliens.)

 

[Glacier]

Well when 10 eyewitnesses positively identify someone it's fairly compelling. When the guy they identify is carrying a gun that is tied to the murder that's compelling too. When the guy they identify pulls his gun on the cops who arrest him and punch one of them (remember, if he's innocent, why do that?), that's even more compelling.

Any theory provided is great, but until there is actual EVIDENCE - of any kind - that links other people to the assassination you have to go with what evidence there is. And all of it, circumstancial, character and especially physical - points to only one person.

Must correct you again
No one, well not me anyway , have said Oswald is completely innocent of anything
Now, before you get all stroppy, coz you are way better than that, I should point you to re read the testimony of witnesses who said there were two shooters at the Tippit murder scene and neither was Oswald
Now these witnesses include those who were with the dead man and even used the police radio to call it through
Now, my point is, if I have witnesses who say one thing and witnesses who say something completely different then what are we to do
Also remember the most important witness to the commission was Helen Markham, who it is also important to remember didn't recognise Oswald from a line up and what's more was even said by others at the scene to not even be there !!
Now I also implore you to research into the full story about the matching of bullets to guns etc and then see for yourself that, hang on a minute, there is a hell of a lot of doubt here about what the commission came up with let alone how they came up with it , just an example of that being the fact that markings made by the officer on recovery of shells at the scene not being recognised by the same officer when later viewing the shells themselves
Also, research as I said the MANY reports that se to be completely ignored about the relationship between Tippit, Oswald and Ruby
It's eye opening stuff

 

[Glacier]

One ballistic expert did match them. I just wrote that.

Two different guns? One .38 calibre gun. Where did the two gun theory come from, I can't wait for this?

(I still think it was aliens.)

The body of Tippit contained four bullets of two different makes
This is FACT and has been touched upon earlier in the thread, although once again just dismissed as not important
Maybe Oswald swapped firearms whilst pumping Tippit full of bullets !!

 

[Partridge]

The body of Tippit contained four bullets of two different makes
This is FACT and has been touched upon earlier in the thread, although once again just dismissed as not important
Maybe Oswald swapped firearms whilst pumping Tippit full of bullets !!

Two questions:

1. Are the 4 bullets all .38 calibre or two different calibres?
2. Could they have been fired from one gun?

 

[Partridge]

Must correct you again
No one, well not me anyway , have said Oswald is completely innocent of anything
Now, before you get all stroppy, coz you are way better than that, I should point you to re read the testimony of witnesses who said there were two shooters at the Tippit murder scene and neither was Oswald
Now these witnesses include those who were with the dead man and even used the police radio to call it through
Now, my point is, if I have witnesses who say one thing and witnesses who say something completely different then what are we to do
Also remember the most important witness to the commission was Helen Markham, who it is also important to remember didn't recognise Oswald from a line up and what's more was even said by others at the scene to not even be there !!
Now I also implore you to research into the full story about the matching of bullets to guns etc and then see for yourself that, hang on a minute, there is a hell of a lot of doubt here about what the commission came up with let alone how they came up with it , just an example of that being the fact that markings made by the officer on recovery of shells at the scene not being recognised by the same officer when later viewing the shells themselves
Also, research as I said the MANY reports that se to be completely ignored about the relationship between Tippit, Oswald and Ruby
It's eye opening stuff

With 10 eyewitnesses, I would be amazed if they all completely converged. On anything. We know this now, we certainly didn't know this in 1963, as to how imperfect our memories are.

So Markham's testimony is flawed - allegedly. What about the other nine?

If the eyewitness testimony disagrees, try and corroborate it with physical and circumstantial evidence. Where does that lead?

Have you read the Warren Report? Because I haven't. And I know everyone dismisses it immediately. Probably should see what it actually says first.*

* We know they got some things wrong. The sequence of shots fired for starters.

 

[Glacier]

Two questions:

1. Are the 4 bullets all .38 calibre or two different calibres?
2. Could they have been fired from one gun?

Now according to different accounts I have read they were different makes and different calibre
However I do stand corrected, these were found at the scene according to some reports and in the body according to others, whilst the report that I favour and I take as correct states that four were found in the body of two different makes and calibre's and 4 were found at the scene, 3 of one and one of the other
Now, not being a firearms expert at all I have to ask, do revolvers expel cartridges when fired because I was under the impression they didn't ?

 

[Glacier]

With 10 eyewitnesses, I would be amazed if they all completely converged. On anything. We know this now, we certainly didn't know this in 1963, as to how imperfect our memories are.

So Markham's testimony is flawed - allegedly. What about the other nine?

If the eyewitness testimony disagrees, try and corroborate it with physical and circumstantial evidence. Where does that lead?

Have you read the Warren Report? Because I haven't. And I know everyone dismisses it immediately. Probably should see what it actually says first.*

* We know they got some things wrong. The sequence of shots fired for starters.

I have read parts of the warren commission but not all
I found it hard to read in parts, and not being a smart arse but I can't really say why I found it so
As for eyewitness testimony at the Tippit scene, the point is that when does differing accounts make each other null and void or at least put doubt in exact events ?
Having had a little bit of experience in this field I say that if I have 5 people say one thing and someone say something different, it's that one person who is adamant that what they saw is true that is often the most important
Also intriguing is the amount of people who have connections to the case who met untimely endings in the years afterwards, a staggering number when you delve a bit deeper

Edit
Having read some more on my lunch break I would also like to just query as to how many of these witnesses actually saw the shooting itself? I would actually state that the answer maybe one, or even none
Jack Tatum is, to my knowledge, the only witness to the actual shooting, and this was in fact a gunman shooting an already prone body on the ground
He described the shooter as short with dark hair and wearing a white shirt
Others describe two shooters, both with dark hair and one wearing a jacket, one in a white shirt
One fled on foot and one in a grey Plymouth
Very interesting stuff

 

[DIG]

Was reading in a bookstore (and I may be embarrassingly late to all this I don't know). But this book theorized that after first shot was fired, a rookie agent in the car (behind?) accidentally fired, while fumbling with his newly issued gun (which they scrapped straight after the shooting). And this shot took out JFK.

Hence the cover up, lack of ballistic evidence, etc.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Been covered apparently dismissed.

Also a bookstore isn't a bloody library by the books!

 

[pantskyle]

Been covered apparently dismissed.

Also a bookstore isn't a bloody library by the books!

*buy

 

[Partridge]

Was reading in a bookstore (and I may be embarrassingly late to all this I don't know). But this book theorized that after first shot was fired, a rookie agent in the car (behind?) accidentally fired, while fumbling with his newly issued gun (which they scrapped straight after the shooting). And this shot took out JFK.

Hence the cover up, lack of ballistic evidence, etc.

What "lack of ballistic evidence"? There's a mountain of it.

The gun found near the 6th floor window had Oswald's fingerprints on it.
The gun was bought by Oswald.
The bullet fragments recovered (from Connolly, from the car, from Kennedy's skull) all match to that rifle.
The entry and exit wounds are consistent with shots fired from behind (and only from behind).
All 4 commissions agree that two shots hit Kennedy / Connolly and Kennedy.

There's an excellent documentary called "Cold Case JFK" on PBS Nova. It's on YouTube. They don't even mention Oswald, the only focus on the ballistics of the case. Have a look and see what you think.