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Proper Gander

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Feb 15, 2015
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Dunno why the Riolis are the ones with the issue. Cyril has talked about ongoing issues through his career that he has experienced as a First Nation person, and his view that not enough was done around education to assist indigenous players. Culminating in his wife being upset by a comment by a man who has a decent record of this kind of thing, generally insensitive remarks alongside genuinely racist comments, since he regards himself is right in all matters. I mean, I doubt there are too many Hawks players unaware of the Gollywogs collection, and the ‘new arrivals’ security guards comment, and they know that the club accepts a figurehead who has done these things.

They have no obligation to accept an apology, especially one along the lines of “I wasn’t trying to offend but if you got offended, I’m sorry about that”.

I don’t blame the leadership group for stuffing up the boong insult thing - they certainly tried to do the right thing by sorting it between the players involved. But it’s pretty standard workplace stuff that you report such events higher up, not necessarily to punish the culprit but to ensure that others aware of the event are looked after and supported also, and to assess whether better cultural workplace training is indicated to ensure it doesn’t happen again
 

Bostonian

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No, facts and feelings have to be evaluated together in these cases.

It may fall that whoever ‘arbitrates’ this says JK was ‘ignorant of appropriate behaviours towards Shannyn......BUT.....there is no clear evidence of a racial slur.’

This is why I keep saying...you cannot take an extreme position in these things....there’s way too much ‘grey’.

I don't disagree with anything you say.

I was just responding to his post where he says white people don't get to tell black people what is racist which is a ridiculous statement.

If someone makes a ludicrous claim and then claims its racist then the skin colour of the person asking for context and evidence is irrelevant.
 

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Bostonian

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Pretty sure thats what I wrote...twice....about ‘taking ownership of feelings’ and ‘must be supported by evidence’


But as you’re clearly so myopic about the subject you don’t even read others posts properly...I’ll leave it here and do something more intellectually rewarding...like cutting my toenails.

And I'm pretty sure I stated who I was responding to which wasn't you.

Maybe you could go reply to the person who came up with that tripe and set them straight.
 

SuperMal

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And I'm pretty sure I stated who I was responding to which wasn't you.

Maybe you could go reply to the person who came up with that tripe and set them straight.
Actually my BAD. I read ‘disgree’ as agree. I’ll delete my post.

Apologies. 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
 

SuperMal

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And I'm pretty sure I stated who I was responding to which wasn't you.

Maybe you could go reply to the person who came up with that tripe and set them straight.

For what its worth I think you’ve both got a. handle on it.

Racism IS about how the victim feels....but the ‘victim’ can’t just ‘invent’ something as being racist.

In my experience, its only in the blatant examples...like calling someone an ‘ape’....that there’s a clear case to answer.

In most cases it’s either ‘casual’ assumptions or plain insensitivity.
 

ElectricG

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For what its worth I think you’ve both got a. handle on it.

Racism IS about how the victim feels....but the ‘victim’ can’t just ‘invent’ something as being racist.

In my experience, its only in the blatant examples...like calling someone an ‘ape’....that there’s a clear case to answer.

In most cases it’s either ‘casual’ assumptions or plain insensitivity.
You paint an image of the aftermath of a successful war against racism, but the soldiers are now going after everyday impoliteness for something to do, but treating it with the same urgency (sackings, rejected apologies, media storms, etc)
 

Gralin

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I don't disagree with anything you say.

I was just responding to his post where he says white people don't get to tell black people what is racist which is a ridiculous statement.

If someone makes a ludicrous claim and then claims its racist then the skin colour of the person asking for context and evidence is irrelevant.

For what its worth I think you’ve both got a. handle on it.

Racism IS about how the victim feels....but the ‘victim’ can’t just ‘invent’ something as being racist.

In my experience, its only in the blatant examples...like calling someone an ‘ape’....that there’s a clear case to answer.

In most cases it’s either ‘casual’ assumptions or plain insensitivity.


it boils down to the oppressor not getting to tell the oppressed how they should feel
 

Taylor

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Assuming someone's oppression by how they look is some of the most insidiously racist and counter productive things white people have invented.
 

Gralin

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Assuming someone's oppression by how they look is some of the most insidiously racist and counter productive things white people have invented.
lol * off thats not what I said at all

we've got people here saying that the Rioli's are wrong about the racism they experienced while at the Hawks

and they think they are in a position to judge this which they are not
 

Taylor

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lol fu** off thats not what I said at all

we've got people here saying that the Rioli's are wrong about the racism they experienced while at the Hawks

and they think they are in a position to judge this which they are not
You assigned the status of oppressed based on race.
 

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Taylor

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When discussing racism?

The perpetuation of the idea that non white people are oppressed and white people are oppressors is highly racist.

I'm not suggesting that you are racist, but starting with the assumption that someone non white has had an oppressed life and vice versa is highly racist.

The culture of assumption and generalizations are what lead to a culture of not caring about context or intent.
 

SuperMal

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The perpetuation of the idea that non white people are oppressed and white people are oppressors is highly racist.

I'm not suggesting that you are racist, but starting with the assumption that someone non white has had an oppressed life and vice versa is highly racist.

The culture of assumption and generalizations are what lead to a culture of not caring about context or intent.

NOBODY MADE THOSE ASSUMPTIONS,EXCEPT YOU. 👈

I assigned certain likelihoods that an indigenous female MIGHT have experienced which MAY have impacted on the Rioli’s reasons to feel racially targeted.

She may well feel perfectly comfortable in her ‘own skin’...but that doesn’t mean she is not aware she comes from an oppressed minority - and her ’radar’ will be tuned as such.
 
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SuperMal

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My wife (and kids) is black and she would have your head for making the assumption she is oppressed
Some black cultures are significantly more oppressed than others.

First Nation young black males in country WA vs Indian background living in Melbourne for example.
 

ElectricG

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..but that doesn’t mean she is not aware she comes from an oppressed minority - and her ’radar’ will be tuned as such.
For someone saying we’re not allowed to judge when any person who happens to be a POC says how they feel, you sure seem to be good at reading their thoughts.
 

SuperMal

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For someone saying we’re not allowed to judge when any person who happens to be a POC says how they feel, you sure seem to be good at reading their thoughts.

Yes, you're right again.....all First Nation people are blissfully unaware that there are trolls like you out there waiting to undermine their situation.

How could I be so presumptuous to assume they feel they should be treated in a better way. Silly me.
 

SuperMal

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For someone saying we’re not allowed to judge when any person who happens to be a POC says how they feel, you sure seem to be good at reading their thoughts.
But of course she DID feel that way...because she raised it as an issue.

So am I wrong for stating what is clear and obvious to all, or is she wrong for not ‘sucking it up’ as you expect her to....

....or are you a mindless idiot boy who the Admin have allowed to troll this discussion far too long?
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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Some black cultures are significantly more oppressed than others.

First Nation young black males in country WA vs Indian background living in Melbourne for example.
absolutely. It’s the assumption that all people of a race are the same that I know she absolutely hates.
 

Bostonian

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For what its worth I think you’ve both got a. handle on it.

Racism IS about how the victim feels....but the ‘victim’ can’t just ‘invent’ something as being racist.

In my experience, its only in the blatant examples...like calling someone an ‘ape’....that there’s a clear case to answer.

In most cases it’s either ‘casual’ assumptions or plain insensitivity.

it boils down to the oppressor not getting to tell the oppressed how they should feel

Who are these oppressors?
 

Proper Gander

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All this about some races regarding other races as oppressed is veering away from the OP.

Yes it can be argued that a white Australian making assumptions about the experience of being from another race is patronising.

The Cyril story is different. It is about an indigenous player who himself encountered incidents at work that he found upsetting, and his view that more should be done. Which aligns pretty much with everything said by Eddie Betts over the years, so it’s probably not isolated or down to an overreaction by Rioli’s wife.

Surely the obvious starting point is to listen to First Nation people about their concerns, understand what they find upsetting, problematic or racist and work from there.
 

ElectricG

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Yes, you're right again.....all First Nation people are blissfully unaware that there are trolls like you out there waiting to undermine their situation.

How could I be so presumptuous to assume they feel they should be treated in a better way. Silly me.
But of course she DID feel that way...because she raised it as an issue.

So am I wrong for stating what is clear and obvious to all, or is she wrong for not ‘sucking it up’ as you expect her to....

....or are you a mindless idiot boy who the Admin have allowed to troll this discussion far too long?
Dual replies to the same post, calling me stupid numerous times now. I think you need to cool your jets - I don’t appreciate it.
Yes she’s stated her unhappiness. You’re adding layers of fan fiction.
 

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