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Key Forward

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pokerspiv said:
At the end of the day you arent going to get a quality key forward without giving up a quality player. I like Hill as much as anyone, but we have a surplus of outside mids, and he's the only one with real currency.

Consider the guys on our list now who could take Hill's spot either now or in the future:

Morabito, Crozier, Sheridan, Sylvia, Simpson

At least 3 of those guys won't be getting a game next year, meanwhile we have Matt De Boer as a key forward.
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Excellent post.

It's not really about who we want to give up either, it's about what type of player Sydney would need. Other than Jett's what outside mods do they have that are better than hill?

He would slit right in for them as Sam would for us.
 
Don't stress, no deal will be done with Sydney regarding Reid until the buddy deal is sanctioned by the AFL. Its holding up a few other deals as well, one being Jesse White to Collingwood.

3 weeks of this to go. Where is the fast forward button...
 
When Sydney beat us to the premiership next year because we payed overs for a sub standard key
forward you'll kick yourselves. I'd pay overs to a team like Melbourne or GWS. But not Sydney.

If GWS get Shaw like is rumored. Then Collingwoods bargaining power for Jesse White suddenly changes. We should be upping our monetary offer for White. Convince him to come West. Offer nothing more than a 2nd rounder and go from there.
 
A bunch of players were listed above ... but none of them really are good comparisons to Hill. Crozier is a forward. Sheridan and Simpson ... we have no idea if they will make it. Morabito must have serious question marks. Sylvia is here for 2-3 years to play as a forward and hard tackling nut in the midfield, he doesn't play like Hill.

Regardless, Hill is worth a lot more than Reid. That would be a shocking trade from our part. I don't care if Reid is tall, he does not help our side more than Hill would.
 

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Alfonz said:
A bunch of players were listed above ... but none of them really are good comparisons to Hill. Crozier is a forward. Sheridan and Simpson ... we have no idea if they will make it. Morabito must have serious question marks. Sylvia is here for 2-3 years to play as a forward and hard tackling nut in the midfield, he doesn't play like Hill.

Regardless, Hill is worth a lot more than Reid. That would be a shocking trade from our part. I don't care if Reid is tall, he does not help our side more than Hill would.
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Agreed. Stephen Hill is massively underrated on this Board. As Paul Roos has said, he is a 100 metre player. He is our ONLY 100 metre player. And he has the vision to spot options that is only shared by Mundy and Walters. If we want to be more attacking next year - and Lyon realises we must - we don't get rid of our best attacking weapon. While I like that he has worked on his inside game, it is up to the club to keep finding ways to release him on the outside.
 
clogged said:
I wouldn't call Hill attacking. Attacking players kick goals.
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As I see it ATM, Hilly is capable of ruining 40 to 50m off the half back line and kicking the ball with precision into our forward line. He is not to blame for a game plan that revolves around kicking it into the forward line and using mass forward pressure to lock it in there. None of our midfielders kick enough goals. Changing this, with the addition of Sylvia assisting here, will be the evolution of the Ross Lyon style.

Hilly can kick goals. The Geelong game showed that.
 
Hill plays more games where he doesn't kick goals than games he does, and has only kicked more than two goals in a game once.

I agree with you that none of the midfielders kick goals, aside from Fyfe. Therein lies the problem, the players people call "attacking" don't actually do all that much goal scoring. And this was an issue pre-Lyon.
 
clogged said:
Hill plays more games where he doesn't kick goals than games he does, and has only kicked more than two goals in a game once.

I agree with you that none of the midfielders kick goals, aside from Fyfe. Therein lies the problem, the players people call "attacking" don't actually do all that much goal scoring. And this was an issue pre-Lyon.
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Goals kicked isn't the only stat to look for, maybe check out another 3.

1. Inside 50's
2. Goal Assists
3. Score involvements

We don't need him to kick a goal every game. Mundy and Barlow would struggle to get a goal a game.
 
pistol17 said:
Goals kicked isn't the only stat to look for, maybe check out another 3.

1. Inside 50's
2. Goal Assists
3. Score involvements

We don't need him to kick a goal every game. Mundy and Barlow would struggle to get a goal a game.
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I refer to my post in the J-Pod thread. When the opposition's half defence are trouncing Fremantle's forwards, what should Fremantle's midfielders do? Look to hit up someone inside 50 or go for goal themselves?

Hill and Mundy are amazing kicks of the football, both are long and precise kicks. They almost never score though. They might have nice numbers to indicate how often their involvement in a chain of possession results in a score, but in the specific context of a game like the grand final, they need to be more than that. They need to be scoring options.
 
clogged said:
Hill plays more games where he doesn't kick goals than games he does, and has only kicked more than two goals in a game once.

I agree with you that none of the midfielders kick goals, aside from Fyfe. Therein lies the problem, the players people call "attacking" don't actually do all that much goal scoring. And this was an issue pre-Lyon.
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I don't want to get into semantics here except you may have missed my point. He is attacking because he has the ability to set up goals. Just as Mundy does. I expect the interchange cap and the GF result will lead to less reliance on forward pressure alone and more use of skilled players like Mundy and Hill to score themselves. Fyfe too; I am sure he will be practising his kicking a lot over the preseason, as he should. Barlow's goal kicking improved significantly over the last half of 2013 which is a bonus (never thought I'd have any confidence in his ability to execute a banana kick from deep in the pocket near the boundary).

Anyway, Hilly is really important for our premiership aspirations, in my view.
 
Also Hill is the first player targeted by the opposition in a tagging sense, if he were to leave then that mantle would probably fall to Mundy/Fyfe which would have far more serious implications to our ball movement.
 

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clogged said:
Hill plays more games where he doesn't kick goals than games he does, and has only kicked more than two goals in a game once.

I agree with you that none of the midfielders kick goals, aside from Fyfe. Therein lies the problem, the players people call "attacking" don't actually do all that much goal scoring. And this was an issue pre-Lyon.
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Yeah agree. When I look at the team, hill is the midfielder we could afford to lose. Very up and down, but has currency. Only if we could get a Boyd or Hogan though.

I think we'll see Walters start to rotate through the mids. Lachie Neale knows his way around goals, and I did notice an adjustment in the last few games with Fyfe starting in the center then pushing forward more. If he had kicked straight in the GF......

We need Morabito or Simpson to start pushing into the side, and you can see the logic of getting Sylvia. He loves a goal
 
clogged said:
Hill and Mundy are amazing kicks of the football, both are long and precise kicks. They almost never score though. They might have nice numbers to indicate how often their involvement in a chain of possession results in a score, but in the specific context of a game like the grand final, they need to be more than that. They need to be scoring options.
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It's actually amazing how many goals Mundy misses whilst running into the forward 50 considering he's such a good kick, hits everything up around the ground but whiffs badly in front of goal.
 
clogged said:
I refer to my post in the J-Pod thread. When the opposition's half defence are trouncing Fremantle's forwards, what should Fremantle's midfielders do? Look to hit up someone inside 50 or go for goal themselves?

Hill and Mundy are amazing kicks of the football, both are long and precise kicks. They almost never score though. They might have nice numbers to indicate how often their involvement in a chain of possession results in a score, but in the specific context of a game like the grand final, they need to be more than that. They need to be scoring options.
Click to expand...
They generally are floating forward and providing an option but midfielders will struggle to average the 1 goal per game you are talking about. My comments were more in reference to you saying Hill isn't attacking because he doesn't kick goals, stats are not everything. I notice you are from Nederland so assuming you mainly see the TV coverage or just the live stats etc. Apologies if that isn't the case but if you were to see a game live in the flesh and see Hill carry the ball 40-50m then kick it 50-55m to a target inside our forward 50 - I would count that as attacking. The stats would say 1 kick which hardly describes what actually just happened.
 
pistol17 said:
They generally are floating forward and providing an option but midfielders will struggle to average the 1 goal per game you are talking about. My comments were more in reference to you saying Hill isn't attacking because he doesn't kick goals, stats are not everything. I notice you are from Nederland so assuming you mainly see the TV coverage or just the live stats etc. Apologies if that isn't the case but if you were to see a game live in the flesh and see Hill carry the ball 40-50m then kick it 50-55m to a target inside our forward 50 - I would count that as attacking. The stats would say 1 kick which hardly describes what actually just happened.
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Sorry, but that is exactly my point. People are citing score involvements, inside 50s, etc. Those are just averaged stats. I am looking for outliers. Hill has a generally reliable game of 15-20 disposals, half kicks, half handballs, maybe a goal, a few inside 50s, etc.

People see his skills and call him an elite talent. I don't see it. What I want to see from him, before I call him "attacking", before I call him "elite", is the occasional game where he takes apart an opposition side. A 20+ possession, 3+ goal game, a few times a season. He doesn't do this. He's a highly effective cog in a well oiled machine, but when you need a matchwinner, when you desperately need someone to kick you goals, he is not the player you can call upon.
 
rgauci said:
The more I think about it. We should be at the trade table with Adelaide, West Coast and North. All have superfluous tall forwards. Adelaide would be particularly keen to trade into the first two rounds.
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This. Definitely this. Although Adelaide might be reluctant now that McKernan has said he wants to go home. in fact given their recent terrible run with holding onto talls, they might want to hang onto everyone 190+ 'just in case'...
 
What decent KPFs do Adelaide, North and WC have, that will actually leave? Kennedy, Darling, Walker and Black are not going anywhere. The rest are barely even worth thinking about. They aren't even better than Kepler.

I really don't think we need some average tall to plonk in our forward line at the expense of a runner. We should have won the flag with what we have. We need someone to replace Pavlich, but not some imported hack to sit along side him. Though some insurance would be OK, maybe that is where Pods can come into calculations.

But I don't think we should waste time trading to bring in some tall dude who can't get a game at another club. Focus all plans on Hogan as Pav's replacement.
 

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Apart from Walker, Adelaide's talks are not much chop. Jenkins? Meh...
WC are not going to give up Kennedy or Darling so what's left there? McGovern who just got upgraded to the senior list. Maybe.
The only one from North you'd have a crack at is Black and he rejected our offer. Tarrant is injury prone and shit, Petrie is past it and a one club player, Hansen is flakey.

So really, where is this excess?
 
salim malik said:
Mentioned this ages ago in a post somewhere on here.He wasn't getting a senior game at the time and he had shown he had a fair bit of upside.Surely would get him for a Mitchie or Mellington swap
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He might be the only forward we can get.... (aside from J-Pod)

Michie/Mellington for Grant seems like an alright deal to me.
 
I'd prefer to see Zac Clarke used in a running CHF role rather than Jarrod Grant. A better mis-match, taller, just as mobile and likely to be a better contested mark in 2014 ( if improvement keeps tracking ) .

Jarrod Grant offers nothing we need
 
DMan 11 said:
I'd prefer to see Zac Clarke used in a running CHF role rather than Jarrod Grant. A better mis-match, taller, just as mobile and likely to be a better contested mark in 2014 ( if improvement keeps tracking ) .

Jarrod Grant offers nothing we need
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Zac can take a mark but he doesn't move like a forward. He doesn't give our team structure when he's being played as a forward.
 

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