Preview Key to success - Hard Edge

[Accidental genius]

just common sense really. footy is a physical game so hard edge is absolutely necessary and we need more of it in our team but no need for the stupid stuff that give away frees/fines/suspensions.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Never saw Doull or Jezza or Kenny Hunter or Kouta or Bradley or Lance or Ratts or the vast majority in Navy Blue go the man.
A determination to win the ball and tackle hard does not equal thuggery. Play hard but play fair is what we've always done with a few rare exceptions. And 16 flags says that works.

But they had a Long list of players around them that would light it up ..

 

[DangerousD]

I think being good is the necessary component to success, not the nastiness. There can and will be people who are successful because they're nasty, but without being at least a little talented they're not getting real far.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect when people look at sport. People remember the winners, and seek to make comparisons between them, try to see some correlation. They see - in our sport and others - thuggishness, ruthlessness and a willingness to hurt, so they see that as the necessary component to success, despite it not always being there. They don't remember the majority of cases which comprise the losers, who were just as ruthless and thuggish (perhaps moreso; there's always more losers than winners in sport) but not as competent.

I'm not an expert on multiple sports; I'm pretty knowledgeable about cricket and footy, and in both you can be a right campaigner or you can be fair. I see that great Australian side of the late 90's/early 2000's, and I see people talk of the mental disintegration tactics they used to demoralize opposition. Funny thing, though; when you've got a batting lineup of Langer, Hayden, Ponting at three, Waugh/Clarke at 5, Hussey at 6, and Gilly at 7, you're going to make a few bowlers look pretty shitty, and when you've got Warne and McGrath, you're going to bowl a lot of opposition out regardless of conditions. Were they great because they were arseholes, or were they great and huge arseholes?

On the first paragraph, yes of course.

Second paragraph. It’s clear that I have done this and history is written by the winners/victors, most people don’t remember who comes second or the fact a team was better all year but lost the GF.

Im a cricket man, so I really like paragraph 3, you are correct, it was a fantastic team full of talent, but they were ruthless and were happy to win anyway they could.

Its a really good topic

 

[DangerousD]

I think mostly part of the greats’ make up is they have screws lose. Either they have ludicrous dedication to working at their craft (McGrath, Djokovic), the genuine (and possibly correct) arrogance that they’re better than everyone and should win (Warne, Carey), the combative do anything to win doggedness (Hodge, Nadal). Or a combo (Michael Jordan).

Players who have talent, but sort of expect it to happen, or will train just “enough”, or can be put off by someone targeting them or would like to win rather than absolutely pathologically need to... will always struggle to compete against the others.

Again, or saying we need a list of nutters... just that wall to wall nice young men with sensible haircuts and good manners DOES lack something. Where’s the bloke who’ll start a melee? Where’s the bloke who will do something mad to ignite the side? Who just won’t be beaten unless their arms fall off? Who does the opposition actually fear?

Im glad you mentioned the joker, I’m unashamedly a big fan, he sums up what we are debating here, he’s an animal, winning is the only goal, he’s not as pretty as a player than Fed or Nadal but he has them covered in pushing himself to win and will probably end up eclipsing them both and be the clear GOAT (tennis player).

We have some great players, do they have this killer instinct that a joker has?

 

[JustaBattler]

Thread needs more mongrel JustaBattler

As usual some peopel confuse mongrel with thuggery.

If people wish to know what real mongrel is - go back and look at Alex Silvagni's game against Buddy Franklin at his peak. Alex gave away a foot in height 3 yards in speed over 10 meters and about 10 kilos in weight at least - and totally pantsed Franklin made him look like an overhyped spud. Was one of the best man on man performances I can remember since supporting Carlton these last 20 painful years. What a shame injury and age took him away from us.

Post Judd, until Cripps arrived we were the smallest most insipid and pathetic on ball brigade in the game - now we have risen to the heights of bottom four as far as midfield gravitas is concerned and that is all off the back of Cripps - who some nuff nuffs on here want to replace as Captain. Years of supporting Carlton has blinded too many supporters to what is minimum standards required of on ballers and players. Cripps is a lone hand out there and the blokes around him are clueless about giving him a chop out - apart from Kennedy who everyone wants traded out - because we have ...(wait for it...wait.....Murphy!!!) Simmo was respeceted y all opposition for being brave in contests - that is one side of the equation - the other side is being able to put some hurt on - apart from Cripps/MCGovern and Martin - ive seen no one actuially hurt an opposition player with a legal tackle at Carlton in years - heck I'd take an illegal tackle hurt from anyone else occassionally.

Watch Martin line blokes up and tackle - that is how a small man with leg speed can actually smash any opponent. This too small to tackle nonsense is very annoying to read because it is total BS.

No wonder the Club is trying its level best to trade in some midfield ability - DOH!!

Richmond became relevant when Cotchin discovered he could use his speed to hunt and tackle blokes - he stopped being their Murphy and started being their hard edged captain - he led by example - loved the way he took out Shiel in the semi a couple of years ago.

We are so used to our players being punching bags and watching Murphy take dives for frees that we describe hard edged players from opposition as thugs - LOL they have been taking pot shots at Carlton players for years - because for years no one in the side had any interest in giving some back X10.

St Kilda sent Geary to Docherty - and no one in defence actually ran through the little runt - how many goals did he kick on us in that game FFS mongrel is looking after your team mates being smart enough to give oppopsiiton players reason to look twice.

Anyway nice thread - reminds me of another one buried in the back pages ...

 

[Jabba73]

As usual some peopel confuse mongrel with thuggery.

If people wish to know what real mongrel is - go back and look at Alex Silvagni's game against Buddy Franklin at his peak. Alex gave away a foot in height 3 yards in speed over 10 meters and about 10 kilos in weight at least - and totally pantsed Franklin made him look like an overhyped spud. Was one of the best man on man performances I can remember since supporting Carlton these last 20 painful years. What a shame injury and age took him away from us.

Post Judd, until Cripps arrived we were the smallest most insipid and pathetic on ball brigade in the game - now we have risen to the heights of bottom four as far as midfield gravitas is concerned and that is all off the back of Cripps - who some nuff nuffs on here want to replace as Captain. Years of supporting Carlton has blinded too many supporters to what is minimum standards required of on ballers and players. Cripps is a lone hand out there and the blokes around him are clueless about giving him a chop out - apart from Kennedy who everyone wants traded out - because we have ...(wait for it...wait.....Murphy!!!) Simmo was respeceted y all opposition for being brave in contests - that is one side of the equation - the other side is being able to put some hurt on - apart from Cripps/MCGovern and Martin - ive seen no one actuially hurt an opposition player with a legal tackle at Carlton in years - heck I'd take an illegal tackle hurt from anyone else occassionally.

Watch Martin line blokes up and tackle - that is how a small man with leg speed can actually smash any opponent. This too small to tackle nonsense is very annoying to read because it is total BS.

No wonder the Club is trying its level best to trade in some midfield ability - DOH!!

Richmond became relevant when Cotchin discovered he could use his speed to hunt and tackle blokes - he stopped being their Murphy and started being their hard edged captain - he led by example - loved the way he took out Shiel in the semi a couple of years ago.

We are so used to our players being punching bags and watching Murphy take dives for frees that we describe hard edged players from opposition as thugs - LOL they have been taking pot shots at Carlton players for years - because for years no one in the side had any interest in giving some back X10.

St Kilda sent Geary to Docherty - and no one in defence actually ran through the little runt - how many goals did he kick on us in that game FFS mongrel is looking after your team mates being smart enough to give oppopsiiton players reason to look twice.

Anyway nice thread - reminds me of another one buried in the back pages ...

Correct. That game from ASOS was worthy of a highlights reel of its own.

Not sure who our tackling coach is, as a team we ain't doing it right and some players are downright embarrassing at it. Either we have no technique (which can be taught and practiced) and/or we have insufficient strength or speed to impact (not as big a problem with the correct technique). We need to get much better or we will languish where we are on the ladder until the next rebuild.

Would add that Willo, JSOS, Betts and Cotterell hit the contest hard and Levi and Jones split packs. Other than that, we do lack real aggression at the ball.

We have struggled for years against teams that niggle and physically harrass our players, even if their skills are poor. Can't remember the last time we took it up to the Saints, Hawks, Demons, Swans, Eagles, Norf, Tigers and it took until this season to kill off the Dogs. That is half the competition that could confidently go into a game knowing if they were trailing on the scoreboard it was a simple matter of physical intimidation to put us back into our shells. They could target one player and the rest would back off, even if it was subconscious.

A recent example was the Saints game this season. The first 4 centre clearances the Saints ran through/over Marc Murphy, won the first 4 clearances, locked down on Cripps and the game was effectively over. No one came in to help Cripps because we had been intimidated by them running over their target in Murphy. He has been their target before, no one thought to plan for it happening again and we suffered because of it.

Love the skill base we are building, hope like hell we work on attacking the ball and ball carrier between now and next season. There is a time to corral a player and a time to go full bore at them, we always choose the former, which gives the opposition time and space we never get for ourselves. It is one thing to identify a problem, another thing entirely to retrain players to change their instincts.

 

[Love the Drake]

As usual some peopel confuse mongrel with thuggery.

If people wish to know what real mongrel is - go back and look at Alex Silvagni's game against Buddy Franklin at his peak. Alex gave away a foot in height 3 yards in speed over 10 meters and about 10 kilos in weight at least - and totally pantsed Franklin made him look like an overhyped spud. Was one of the best man on man performances I can remember since supporting Carlton these last 20 painful years. What a shame injury and age took him away from us.

Post Judd, until Cripps arrived we were the smallest most insipid and pathetic on ball brigade in the game - now we have risen to the heights of bottom four as far as midfield gravitas is concerned and that is all off the back of Cripps - who some nuff nuffs on here want to replace as Captain. Years of supporting Carlton has blinded too many supporters to what is minimum standards required of on ballers and players. Cripps is a lone hand out there and the blokes around him are clueless about giving him a chop out - apart from Kennedy who everyone wants traded out - because we have ...(wait for it...wait.....Murphy!!!) Simmo was respeceted y all opposition for being brave in contests - that is one side of the equation - the other side is being able to put some hurt on - apart from Cripps/MCGovern and Martin - ive seen no one actuially hurt an opposition player with a legal tackle at Carlton in years - heck I'd take an illegal tackle hurt from anyone else occassionally.

Watch Martin line blokes up and tackle - that is how a small man with leg speed can actually smash any opponent. This too small to tackle nonsense is very annoying to read because it is total BS.

No wonder the Club is trying its level best to trade in some midfield ability - DOH!!

Richmond became relevant when Cotchin discovered he could use his speed to hunt and tackle blokes - he stopped being their Murphy and started being their hard edged captain - he led by example - loved the way he took out Shiel in the semi a couple of years ago.

We are so used to our players being punching bags and watching Murphy take dives for frees that we describe hard edged players from opposition as thugs - LOL they have been taking pot shots at Carlton players for years - because for years no one in the side had any interest in giving some back X10.

St Kilda sent Geary to Docherty - and no one in defence actually ran through the little runt - how many goals did he kick on us in that game FFS mongrel is looking after your team mates being smart enough to give oppopsiiton players reason to look twice.

Anyway nice thread - reminds me of another one buried in the back pages ...

So much about this post is what this thread is about.

Look at our stalwarts and best players over the last five years.

• Crippa is a nice guy.
• Doc is a nice guy.
• Simmo is a nice guy.
• Murphy is a nice guy.
• Levi is a nice guy.
• Jones is a nice guy.
• Kruez is a nice guy.

When can you remember any of these players becoming emotionally charged and giving it to the opposition with a huge bump or a big tackle? Crippa against Mayne. Levi (199 cm and 105 kg) maybe once or twice.

Over the last 10-20 years I can't remember a Carlton team ever being physically dominant over the opposition. That is an indictment on any footy team. Footy is a physical, combative sport. The tough not only survive, but generally win. Head over the ball. Be fearless. Never let the opposition bully you. LOOK AFTER YOUR MATES.

These are the intangibles. This is what we have to aspire to. I'm not talking dirty footy. I'm talking brave, fearless, head over the ball and stand up for your mates. Tackle extra hard to make a statement. Bump harder. Jump in to the intercept defender so he doesn't want to stand there next time (Dangerfield & Lynch did this perfectly (and legally) on the weekend).

Who doesn't remember Earl Spalding's bump on Bluey McKenna in Perth in 1995. Absolutely brutal. Absolutely legal. Set the tone for the match. Deano, Ratts, Fraser Brown, Diesel Hoggy & Ricey putting their head over the ball fearlessly that year. Look at that list of names. Remember Big Nick and the dominator and Wow Jones and Jimmy Buckley and Rhys...all premiership players whose team-mates stood taller around. And people on here say our premiership teams were skilful and not tough!

That's what wins you flags. We need to get to that level.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I just think it's more of a transformation thing than a deliberate mindset.
There is no switch that can be flicked.
Win 7 8 9 10 games on the trot and we will soon see some bustling agro developing.
Teams that regularly lose are never going to be all that hard edged.

 

[3rd Grade Maggy]

Lucky we've kept Marc with a C on the list.

 

[JustaBattler]

Correct. That game from ASOS was worthy of a highlights reel of its own.

Not sure who our tackling coach is, as a team we ain't doing it right and some players are downright embarrassing at it....

A recent example was the Saints game this season. The first 4 centre clearances the Saints ran through/over Marc Murphy, won the first 4 clearances, locked down on Cripps and the game was effectively over. No one came in to help Cripps because we had been intimidated by them running over their target in Murphy. He has been their target before, no one thought to plan for it happening again and we suffered because of it.

Ratten just rolled out the same game plan that the other teams you mentioned have been playing aginst us ...more than any other players - Murphy and Gibbs killed Ratten's coaching career at Carlton - week in week out - with 'weak'.

Teague has his hands tied for another what is it? 15 games...?

 

[Faz 2000]

Remember when we bullied Callum Mills? Remember how uncomfortable it was? Remember how effective it was?

 

[jj1978]

The Paperbag saga really impacted the whole club spiritually, mentally, physically on and off the field. Although I hate to agree with * on anything but their new president even mentioned that * has lost their voice and have been too afraid to speak up since the injection infestation occurred.

After paperbag our new president bent over and the club as a whole agreed to do whatever it could to appease the AFL who enjoyed having us finally in that position and went above and beyond in making us pay. If the AFL had at least tried to be as lenient and understanding as they have been with * we'd be 5 years better off and perhaps would not have made some of the stupid decisions we did.

Teague was a hard edged player and I think given another pre-season and some of the things he's doing with the younger kids in Dow, LOB, Filpe etc to get them to re-earn games is a good thing. How would you feel when you have old-farts in Eddie and Murphy taking your spot in the team and now SAAD and Williams are walk up starts! This is how we find those kids that have the hard edge, as they'll fight to make it back into the 22 and keep it. I think our maintaining of the older-heads has been as much about protecting the kids as well as psychologically seeing if they're up for the fight.

 

[Wickzki]

I just think it's more of a transformation thing than a deliberate mindset.
There is no switch that can be flicked.
Win 7 8 9 10 games on the trot and we will soon see some bustling agro developing.
Teams that regularly lose are never going to be all that hard edged.

This is why I think Richmond is a great comparison.

Before they won the premiership they were mocked as being weak, mild, and basically, Meekmond was a meme.

Then they flipped the switch with mostly the same players (at first) and they became the hunters when they should have become the hunted.

They've added to that 22 since (e.g. Lynch) and become even more ferocious.

 

[Wickzki]

Remember when we bullied Callum Mills? Remember how uncomfortable it was? Remember how effective it was?

Remember when Jed Lamb bullied James Sicily to the point where Jed's teammates started joining in to the point where the almighty Hawks didn't back him up and we broke the streak?

 

[Faz 2000]

Remember when Jed Lamb bullied James Sicily to the point where Jed's teammates started joining in to the point where the almighty Hawks didn't back him up and we broke the streak?

I do! For all his flaws and limitations, Jed Lamb had a belligerence about him I'd like a lot more of in our current team.

 

[Michael Jezz]

I do! For all his flaws and limitations, Jed Lamb had a belligerence about him I'd like a lot more of in our current team.

AKA cotrell

 

[Matty411]

From our current list, I think these guys are the ones who need to take charge of that hardness:

• Crippa (no excuses, must use his size and leadership)
• Pittonet (when he plays)
• Williamson
• Martin
• Levi (not sure he can find that edge at this stage, but when he uses his body, its a sight to behold)

Any others, baggers?

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I know this thread isn't condoning thuggery as a tactic, but could we all just stop and imagine how McKay would be treated by the MRO if he did what Lynch did the other night?
3-4 weeks?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

This is why I think Richmond is a great comparison.

Before they won the premiership they were mocked as being weak, mild, and basically, Meekmond was a meme.

Then they flipped the switch with mostly the same players (at first) and they became the hunters when they should have become the hunted.

They've added to that 22 since (e.g. Lynch) and become even more ferocious.

It is a really interesting one because guys like Lynch and Cotchin were so far from hard edged that it wasn’t funny so it can obviously be instilled in players.

richmond also brought in about half of that premiership side over the three years leading upto that win so although the core was still there they still turned that side over massively, maybe that naturally changed the group.

 

[Faz 2000]

It is a really interesting one because guys like Lynch and Cotchin were so far from hard edged that it wasn’t funny so it can obviously be instilled in players.

richmond also brought in about half of that premiership side over the three years leading upto that win so although the core was still there they still turned that side over massively, maybe that naturally changed the group.

I think Cotchin is the one who really flipped the switch. It coincided with the making of him as a leader/the captain. Basically, he began to embody the team-first, play-your-role-in-the-machine mentality that has made them the best team of the past few years. Of course he didn't completely change as a player, but the emphasis of his game definitely did. Less ball-chasing, more impactful moments. Less finishing work off, more starting plays. Certainly greater focus on tackling, the contest and taking the body. It made him less likely to do well in Supercoach points or win the Brownlow (again), but made the Tigers a better team and won greater admiration from his teammates. He set the example. Cripps would do very well to pick up some elements of what Cotchin did, IMHO.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

the other side is being able to put some hurt on - apart from Cripps/MCGovern and Martin - ive seen no one actuially hurt an opposition player with a legal tackle at Carlton in years - heck I'd take an illegal tackle hurt from anyone else occassionally.

Something Levi disappoints me with, every now and then you hear from a player or commentator how strong he is and how ridiculously heavy his lifts are. Doesn't crunch players very often. Lynch and Riewoldt aren't the thickest or strongest key forwards but they love leaving defenders on the ground.

 

[Faz 2000]

Something Levi disappoints me with, every now and then you hear from a player or commentator how strong he is and how ridiculously heavy his lifts are. Doesn't crunch players very often. Lynch and Riewoldt aren't the thickest or strongest key forwards but they love leaving defenders on the ground.

Levi should be able to have the impact that Charlie Dixon does in terms of physicality and intimidation.

 

[Love the Drake]

How good would it be to recruit Selwood as an assistant coach next year. Wouldn’t put up with players being bullied..

 

[Gethelred]

This is why I think Richmond is a great comparison.

Before they won the premiership they were mocked as being weak, mild, and basically, Meekmond was a meme.

Then they flipped the switch with mostly the same players (at first) and they became the hunters when they should have become the hunted.

They've added to that 22 since (e.g. Lynch) and become even more ferocious.

They were bagged as being soft, and because they had a habit of going missing in the last 10 minutes of games and quarters - mainly because we had a habit of beating them that way - and they didn't lay tackles nearly enough. Well, if you look at the players they have in common from 2015, they still don't really tackle, it's who they've surrounded them with.

And in recognising that they didn't tackle nearly enough, they built their gameplan around it in a way no other club has. For the first three terms, they borderline ignore getting the ball themselves, instead focusing on tackling and pressuring their opponents. If they score early, it's from turnover. They do this, to give the Martin's, the Cotchin's, the Houli's, the Edwards and now the Bolton's to rest. They sit off the play, almost letting their teammates do all the work before swooping on the suddenly loose ball. They stream forward, and those toiling hardworking tacklers job changes to either getting it to one of them or smashing it to a predetermined field position. This means that, late in games and quarters, these players suddenly seem like titans, winning the ball with speed and strength (because of course they're stronger, they're fresh and their opponents are not).

This is nothing that hasn't been said before, so why bring it up here? Because that softness and habit of going missing is still there. I had a look I can't remember how long ago, and for a top echelon team, they have a habit of losing games by biiiig margins. If plan A (tackle the opposition into turnovers) isn't working and the opposition can cut through their zone, they get scored against, heavily, and if you force them to exert effort from those quality players to force them to win the ball, they can't do what they do late in terms. It's a patch job. They're not harder, or more ruthless, or any adjective you want to put to them to explain the change. What they are is better coached, and their game is better planned.

 

[Dunna Heartknee]

How good would it be to recruit Selwood as an assistant coach next year. Wouldn’t put up with players being bullied..

Not having a go at you
**** him he's a slapper