Khawaja v Marsh

At #3, Khawaja v Marsh

  • Khawaja

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Marsh

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Watson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ponting

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

aussierulesrules

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Posts
26,995
Likes
45,864
Location
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
If he hadnt been dismissed for 0, 3, 0, 11 he'd be getting some time in the middle to find some form.
Would he? No kidding.
And I suppose making those runs in test matches, against good quality bowling, when you've played just one innings in the 6 weeks prior to the series (in a completely different format), is just a piece of piss, especially when you're new to it and have only played 3 tests previously?

Unlike so many on here seem to be, I don't really give a flying **** what he's done for WA in the past, I care far more about what he's done for Australia and what he could do for us and while he's had a terrible series so far, it's not exactly hard to figure out why that could be the case.
Sure it may be that he's not mentally strong enough, but that didn't look to be the case in his previous tests for us, when he ground out long innings, in sometimes tough conditions, looking fantastic, when most others in the side weren't making runs.
Having seen what he did in those initial tests, it's far more likely that his current form is more due to the lack of matches in the lead-up to this series and the fact that his confidence is low, that is causing him to struggle.
As they said on Inside Cricket last night, in these games against India he's been leaving his bat out to dry, or seeming unsure how to play those balls outside off, which is the exact opposite of what he was doing in Sri Lanka and Sth Africa, where he was leaving ball after ball and making them "bowl to him", with outstanding results. (He was batting like Usman does, but with actual scoring shots in between all the leaving and blocking). If he gets back to that in Adelaide, he could very easily get back to kicking ass again, like Warner did in the last match, after he too looked ordinary and unsure how to approach things early in this series. ("Marsh could do worse than to draw inspiration from Warner's astonishing innings of 180 in Perth. In the days leading up to the Test, Warner was struggling to lay bat on ball in the nets and, like Marsh, began to seriously question his own form."- The Australian) Or like Huss did in Melbourne and Sydney, after he also had a string of very low scores in a row.
The simple fact is that Marsh has enormous natural ability, which is what those of us who watch the IPL (and his various matches in Australia's ODI and T20 side) have seen on show there numerous times, in high pressure games, with millions watching. He doesn't dominate games there because he's a "battler" with no talent, or a "slogger", with no technique. He is pretty much pure class and that was also on show in his first few tests for us. This would be why he was rushed straight back into the side when he was passed fit again, because they know how good he is and can be and they want to see if they can bring it out of him on a consistent basis, while they still have the chance.
As everyone has noted, there aren't many "banging down the door" (for batting spots) in domestic cricket at the moment, so I don't think it's unreasonable for those selecting the side to want to see if they can bring out the best in someone who has about as much natural ability and class as anyone at domestic level and who, just 3 months ago, made a big test century on debut (after the other side had just been bowled out for 175 on their home deck). I hope they do, because he is someone who could really be outstanding for us for a long time to come (if his body lets him, which is of course a big "if") and be a "bridge" between the older ones in the side and the really young ones coming through.

Here is what Mickey Arthur said about Marsh, when he was coaching him at WA last summer, for those that don't rate his ability:

"Shaun Marsh is the most talented batsman I have coached and that goes with all our players at South African level," The Sydney Morning Herald quoted Arthur, as saying.

". A. B. de Villiers and Shaun Marsh are the two best I've seen. It's a big rap and I mean it. He's a phenomenal player. He's the cleanest hitter of the ball I've seen. He should be playing Test cricket, there's no doubt in my mind," he said.

http://www.topnews.in/sports/marsh-not-hughes-should-open-australia-perth-test-arthur-214808
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

King Elvis

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Posts
45,616
Likes
36,181
Location
SA
AFL Club
Adelaide
The simple fact is that Marsh has enormous natural ability, which is what those of us who watch the IPL (and his various matches in Australia's ODI and T20 side) have seen on show there numerous times, in high pressure games, with millions watching.
Why are his domestic four day figures so crap?
 

aussierulesrules

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Posts
26,995
Likes
45,864
Location
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
Good question. There's obviously something missing there (which is another reason why spending time in the Australian team ought to be good for him, as he can see how the likes of Hussey and Ponting and co go about things and see what it takes to succeed there.), or maybe he's just been unsure how to go about things there. Maybe he's someone who, like Warner, ought to just play his natural attacking game and not worry about changing his game too much just because it's a longer format. Or maybe he's done the opposite and tried to play more like he does in T20 or ODI's and it hasn't worked.
Whatever the case is, he certainly looked every bit the part in his first 3 tests and, as they said on Inside Cricket last night, even looked better in Sth Africa when he made 44 than Clarke did when he made 150 in the same innings (the match where we got bowled out for 47 in the 2nd innings, after bowling them out for 96). In Sri Lanka, he looked as good and safe as Hussey, who was in career best form. He looked like he was born to play it.
I hope they do what it takes to get the best out of him, because he has the goods, cricket wise.
There are also plenty who have better averages in test or international cricket than they do for the same thing (batting or bowling) at domestic level (I've seen quite a few examples of that looking through profiles on Cricinfo in recent days), so he may just be someone who performs best on the big stage, or who will rise to the occasion.
 

Thommo 42

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Posts
9,782
Likes
1,198
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Collingwood
Why are his domestic four day figures so crap?

Because he has always lacked application, loved a drink and been a bit of a party boy. I don't think he should be playing test cricket, but he is a very talented player and if he gets his head and body right, he could be a quality test player.

His domestic figures are deplorable, and while they have improved in the past 2 years, the hasn't done enough to force his way into the team imo.

I would go for Kawajah every day of the week, he just needs to find the right balance between valuing his wicket and actually playing his natural game and giving himself the freedom to play some attacking strokes. He's got himself too caught up in the media campaign about leaving the ball, his technique is absolutely rock solid, but he bogs himself down and then tries to force the issue instead of just playing naturally.

He has looked incredibly comfortable at Test Level... until he tries to score.
 

Thommo 42

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Jun 2, 2007
Posts
9,782
Likes
1,198
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Collingwood
It was good enough for Warner to launch from and the comp is being dominated by guys that can actually bat. Bowling depth is greater with the likes of Nannes, Tait, Lee playing Vs SS with 3 roughly 3 top line quicks injured at a time with another 3-4 on international duties.

It is an absolute myth that Warner launched his test career via T20. Warner has been in the Australian Cricket setup since he was a teenager, he has had multiple stints at the Centre of Excellence (including being sent home once for destroying his room after a big night on the piss).

He went back to NSW and found it hard to force his way into the strong NSW side because they were winning shields, had Hughes averaging 60 as an opener, also had Phil Jacques, Simon Katich, Shane Watson, Kawajah etc etc. Ed Cowan left NSW for the very same reason, but Warner decided to stay put and try and force his way in. He made several 1st Grade hundreds last year and eventually made his way into the NSW team.

From 11 first class matches he averaged 60 and went on an AustA tour where he made a double century and then forced his way into the Test Squad. He very much did it the hard way, having to bat at #6 on debut for NSW and work his way into the side. Once he was in, he dominated and went from there.

He certainly didn't launch a test career off the back of eye catching T20 efforts, he launched it via hardwork in Grade Cricket to get a go at first class level where he has flourished.
 

BarneyBent

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Posts
10,590
Likes
3,127
Location
Leeds/'Berra/Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
Would be sub 30 since he scored half a dozen tons in his first season?
Strong username to post ratio. It wasn't half a dozen, it wasn't his first season, his average hasn't been sub 30 since then (it's 35.4), and only on BigFooty is it sensible to disregard four of a player's best innings to build an argument that he's rubbish.

Nobody is claiming an average of 35.4 over the last two years is good enough to be pushing for Test selection, btw, which is why Smith isn't currently in calculations. However, to simply ignore the fact that he plundered the competition with 4 centuries and an average of 77 as a 20 year old allrounder two years ago when judging his potential is just plain silly.
 

aussierulesrules

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Posts
26,995
Likes
45,864
Location
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
Because he has always lacked application, loved a drink and been a bit of a party boy. I don't think he should be playing test cricket, but he is a very talented player and if he gets his head and body right, he could be a quality test player.
Maybe they should get Simon Katich on to him?



And hopefully his stint in test cricket will help him realise that that is where he wants to be, if he ends up losing his spot and going back to domestic level. Maybe then he will pull his head in and get to work and reach his potential.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Posts
10,933
Likes
1,657
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
only on BigFooty is it sensible to disregard four of a player's best innings to build an argument that he's rubbish.
I wasn't building an argument he was rubbish.

Pretty clear drop off however.

It's not as if he has been inconsistant and I'm taking his recent high scores out.

Scores from two years eventually do become irrelevant in discussing a players prospects.

Plenty of players burst on to the scene, only to do sfa in the coming years.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

R00StaR

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Posts
5,107
Likes
1,925
Location
Asgard
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Kangaroos
It is an absolute myth that Warner launched his test career via T20. Warner has been in the Australian Cricket setup since he was a teenager, he has had multiple stints at the Centre of Excellence (including being sent home once for destroying his room after a big night on the piss).
He actually played cricket before the 20/20s? Thought they grabbed him out the pub, well damn there goes that theory.
 
Joined
May 21, 2006
Posts
10,086
Likes
8,654
Location
WA
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
I maintain that Marsh has the talent and determination to succeed at test level, but his last few innings have worried me. Might be just bad form or it might be that India have found him out. People are forgetting that he looked much better than Khawaja in the tests in Sri Lanka and South Africa, the 141 on debut was a superb innings coming when our other batsmen failed and his 44 against Steyn, Philander and Morkel who made everyone else look silly (except Clarke) was a very very solid innings.

He's got the ability to do it, but if he fails again in Adelaide then he won't have any one else to blame but himself for a wasted opportunity. Seems a bit nervous early in his innings, but then again every batsmen out of form faces the same problem.

Khawaja is a very good prospect as well, but Marsh deserves first dibs at the number three spot for now.
 

The_Reaper

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Posts
40,121
Likes
30,969
Location
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
East Fremantle
Why are his domestic four day figures so crap?
Because he was selected at an early age and spent 4-5 years screwing around in a weak team and hitting the pub with his mates.

In both of the last two seasons he has averaged over 50.

Clarke also only averaged 35 before making his test debut because he made his first class debut at an early age
 

DeadlyAkkuret

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Posts
27,058
Likes
10,156
Location
Ensconced in velvet
AFL Club
Sydney
Other Teams
Lakers, West Ham
When does his hasn't played much cricket before this series excuse expire? Can we critisise his batting if he fails against the Windies?

He really, really needs a score on a flat deck like Adelaide otherwise the excuses surely have to be running dry.
 

King Elvis

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Posts
45,616
Likes
36,181
Location
SA
AFL Club
Adelaide
I think Khawaja should be in before him, but, in that case, I don't blame Marsh.

It's not his fault stupid scheduling forced the selectors to shoehorn him in lacking fitness and match form.
 

aussierulesrules

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Posts
26,995
Likes
45,864
Location
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
I think Khawaja should be in before him, but, in that case, I don't blame Marsh.

It's not his fault stupid scheduling forced the selectors to shoehorn him in lacking fitness and match form.
I don't think it mattered this time. From memory his back was rooted until just a few days before the first test, so it wouldn't have mattered if there was a first class game in the lead-up or not, as he wouldn't have been up to playing one anyway.
Really bad back injuries can be incredibly debilitating, so I'm not surprised he's struggled in this series, as he'd have had little lead-up practise, but then again, he looked awfully good in that T20 game, so to me it's probably more of a confusion as to how to go about batting in the tests, than anything else. He has seemed in two minds as to how to approach his play, as Warner was, until the last match.
 

BarneyBent

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Posts
10,590
Likes
3,127
Location
Leeds/'Berra/Sydney
AFL Club
Sydney
I wasn't building an argument he was rubbish.

Pretty clear drop off however.

It's not as if he has been inconsistant and I'm taking his recent high scores out.

Scores from two years eventually do become irrelevant in discussing a players prospects.

Plenty of players burst on to the scene, only to do sfa in the coming years.
You're talking about a very small sample size. He had a brilliant year, then a poor one. This year, he has been good but has battled injury. He scored a quality century early, but has had knee problems which seem to have troubled him, as he hasn't looked nearly as fluent as he did then. Still averages 40.

A single poor year, and half a meh one while battling injuries, is not enough to suggest he's in the "burst on to the scene, only to do sfa in the coming years" category. It does suggest he's a rough talent that needs more time, which nobody is really arguing against.

The refusal to give Smith any sort of credit around here is simply bizarre. The fact some people rate Maddinson, Lynn, etc above him is mind-boggling.
 

King Elvis

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Posts
45,616
Likes
36,181
Location
SA
AFL Club
Adelaide
Smith still has a big future.

They need to be careful he doesn't suffer from Cameron White syndrome though; he's a batter who bowls a bit, not a genuine leggie.
 

ChrisFooty

Premiership Player
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Posts
3,956
Likes
16
Location
Victoria
AFL Club
St Kilda
I can not believe Khawaja was dropped before Marsh. Khawaja did not look that far away from making his breakthrough innings at test level. Meduim term Watson and Khawaja will come in for both Marsh and Ponting.
 

mattymac

GM of Awareness
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Posts
12,945
Likes
21,038
Location
Yes
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
No
I can not believe Khawaja was dropped before Marsh. Khawaja did not look that far away from making his breakthrough innings at test level. Meduim term Watson and Khawaja will come in for both Marsh and Ponting.
that would be the best result for mine

i wouldn't want watto at 3 as some suggest. i'd want to keep him as far away from warner as possible in tests. also would do nothing to give him recovery time from bowling if we lose an opener cheaply. put him at 6 in a traditional allrounder role and have our two most destructive bats book-ending the order
 

R00StaR

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Posts
5,107
Likes
1,925
Location
Asgard
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Kangaroos
I can not believe Khawaja was dropped before Marsh. Khawaja did not look that far away from making his breakthrough innings at test level. Meduim term Watson and Khawaja will come in for both Marsh and Ponting.
So despite Khawaja having 11 test innings @ 29 V Marsh's 9 @ 33, despite Marsh thrown in without great preparation due to the lack of quality inform batsmen in the country its Khawaja who looks most likely.

Marsh has been getting out so early its impossible to tell how he's playing. If he made 20 and looked out of his depth sure lynch the guy, but he isnt, he's out to the first half false shot. Cricket goes that way sometimes, you can be seeing it like a basketball only to edge the ball most other people miss by a few inches. Just think the first play and miss Warner has done each innings lead to his dismissal, how'd he be travelling? Makes you wonder how many have actually played the game. Greg Chappell had a massive string of ducks, something like 4 in a row and 7 in 15 innings, didnt mean squat, he's still one of the best we've ever produced.

Watson has made the opening position he's own, not sure why so many people now think he should be forced out. Pretty sure the selectors would prefer a left hand/ right hand combo. Anyway they have this test to lay further claims and im sure the WI tour will have a couple of extra bats along - Watson and Khawja along with the existing team.
 

maxy87

Club Legend
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Posts
1,316
Likes
739
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Geelong
We bowled India out on the SCG...doesn't men that it wasn't flat, the pitches in SL are notoriously flat.
You're right they are flat, but you're using the term flat to mean easy to bat on. It's relatively easy if you're accostomed to the conditions and have a technique which can handle spin bowling and suits the slow, low nature of the wickets, which are very often rain affected (I.e Jayawardena, Sangakarra, De Silva). Not to mention the muggy conditions, oppressive heat and slow, damp outfields.

I hear a lot of talk, especially from Kerry O'Keefe that Marsh's technique is better suited to slower and lower conditions, which may explain his big innings in Lanka. What would question this theory though is the fact that he has been brought up playing at the WACA and also the fact that the weather in the high country (Kandy and Pallekele - where Marsh made the 141) is somewhat cooler (humidity the same) and the wickets offer just that little bit more for seamers
 
Top Bottom