Khawaja v Marsh

At #3, Khawaja v Marsh

  • Khawaja

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  • Marsh

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  • Watson

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  • Ponting

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  • Other

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  • Poll closed .

aussierulesrules

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Marsh looked shocking tonight. Poor average in first class. Adelaide should be his final test.. I hope he does well but I doubt it.
Which suggests even more that he's simply going through a form slump, or severe lack of confidence, at the moment, as he usually looks fantastic in T20 games, like he did when he made 99 off 50 odd balls a month ago.
This is all the more reason to not judge him too much on his test performances at the moment. Otherwise, it would have been like judging Hussey on his test capabilities based on his run of low scores a month or so ago, or Hilfy, on how he went last summer, when he was out of form, or Siddle, when he wasn't getting wickets, etc.
As for his first class average, didn't someone say earlier in the thread that in his last two Sheffield Shield seasons he averaged over 50? Surely that is far more relevant to anything than his overall record. I personally don't care what he did 3+ years ago.
If we were only going by overall records, Cowan wouldn't be considered any good, either, as he only has a first class average of 40, from 100+ innings. Only one or so more than Marsh.
 

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aussierulesrules

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Very fair to say. But then it would also have been fair to say that Ponting shouldn't have been in the test team for much of the past two years and that Clarke shouldn't have been in there during the Ashes last year and that Brad Haddin also shouldn't be there now. They clearly don't just pick on form.
They rolled the dice by picking Marsh on the back of one T20 innings and very little batting in 6 weeks and it's backfired badly so far. Not good for Australia, or for his confidence (or form, leading up to the T20's and ODI's he would have been playing anyway).
Warner turned it all around in a week though, so hopefully Marsh will too. If the Marsh who played for us in Sri Lanka and Sth Africa turns up at the Adelaide Oval next week and makes another big ton, we'll all be very happy, I imagine.
On the flip-side, if he does poorly again and gets the flick, it could be just the thing he needs to finally take it as seriously as he ought to and really apply himself (if these have been issues for him). He will have had a taste of it and if he has that taken away from him it might be the best thing to motivate him to get back in and stay there next time.
 

aussierulesrules

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Who's comparing him to Clarke? I was comparing what they were going through, which is a form slump. I would have thought that was pretty obvious. You do know that you can actually compare situations, without actually comparing those involved in them, don't you? Things don't have to be exactly the same in all regards to be able to learn something from a situation, or to be able to compare it.
I don't like a team having to carry anyone when they're clearly out of form, so it doesn't really matter to me what their name is, or what they've done in the past. I put the best interests of the team first and if someone needs to go back to domestic level to get their form back, then so be it, whether they're new on the scene, or if they've been around for years.
Carrying those who are out of form for long stretches has been a major cause of our big slide in the test rankings in the past couple of years, IMO and it was a huge part of why we lost the Ashes last summer, with Ponting, Hughes and Clarke, for instance, in horrible form (averaging 16, 16 and 21 respectively, for the series). It was very obvious early enough on that they were way out of form and that our chances of winning the series were just about nil, when 3 of the top 6 are almost certain to get out cheaply.
That is why it could have been very fair to say Clarke (as well as Hughes and Ponting and also Hilfenhaus and maybe Siddle) "shouldn't" have been playing in that series, the one we wanted to win more than any other, but gave ourselves little chance of doing.
 

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Trouble is the next knock could be the one that breaks the form slump. Its a difficult task knowing how long one will last, so to drop without too many chances can be harsh.

For mine much depends on the credits in the bank, how good their best is and importantly how much pressure is being applied for the spot.

There really arent any batsmen knocking the door down atm. So selectors are likely to stick with those guys they know can perform at the level. Sometimes they just have to back their man, if they feel he has the talent then fast track him. As examples given earlier, Bell has turned into a fine test bat and we all know how much criticism Watson had.

Experience and a knowing you belong (which comes with the first) makes such a big difference. Thats when players stop playing with fear of getting out and let their natural games flow.

We know we have 2 massive pairs of shoes to fill shortly, we cant just throw players around with a test here and there and expect them to be filled. We need to identify a few people and give them an extended run at it.

Marsh has shown the last few years he's up to it, has all the talent in the world and performed against the best bowling attack going around (SA). I really hope he makes it, as he's sensational to watch. Not in a Warner crash smash style but in a pure cricket stroke effortlessly smoked to the boundary style.
 

aussierulesrules

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Exactly. There are a lot of things to weigh up and you also have to remember that Watson is due back hopefully for the following test match, so he will most likely take Marsh's spot then, unless he pulls out a big score or two in the Adelaide test.
So for those who don't want Marsh to even play this coming test match, do you really think it would be a good idea to bring say Usman in for this game, only to have Watson replace him for the following game? That would be very disruptive for all concerned.
 

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marsh's first class record suggests that this may not be a form slump so much as it's all that he's really capable of at test level and that his form in sri lanka was a mere purple patch
 

aussierulesrules

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So we're going by what Marsh did 3+ years ago, are we? Isn't that the Andrew Hilditch way of selecting teams? Judge their "worthiness" on what they did 3 or so years ago? Because I just checked and Marsh averaged 59 for both the 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 Sheffield Shield seasons. Plus he had some good scores in the Tour games in Sri Lanka and Sth Africa, late last year, including I believe a century, a 50 (our second highest score of the innings) and a 73 not out (again our second highest score of the innings and on track to pass the highest, which was Watson's 77. In that match he got 2 of the 6 highest scores for the 4 innings, with our full test batting line-up all playing and the likes of Philander and Parnell bowling to them).
So it sounds like he had a two year "purple patch", until his recent injury had him miss 6 weeks of cricket, before being rushed back into the test team and having a slump. Then again, maybe it makes more sense that he's actually matured and started playing to his very obvious potential in this past two years, rather than it being a two year "purple patch"? Just maybe?
The other thing to be taken into account when looking at his averages over any length of time, is that fact that he's been getting injured on a regular basis, which would not be likely to be helping that at all. Probably every time he gets on a roll and into really good form (like he was for Australia, in Sri Lanka and Sth Africa) he's getting injured and then he has to come back a few weeks later and virtually start over again. That lack of continuity would not be doing his cricket any favours at all, I don't imagine, so he's probably done well to average 59 for the past two seasons under those circumstances.
He's clearly got the ability and in the past two years he's been putting the score on the board as well, including in test cricket. The fact he's getting injured regularly is the only major negative I see with him at this point in time, as poor form is temporary, class is permanent.
 

Thommo 42

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He's clearly got the ability and in the past two years he's been putting the score on the board as well, including in test cricket. The fact he's getting injured regularly is the only major negative I see with him at this point in time, as poor form is temporary, class is permanent.
I think thats the point mate. I would say 'form is temporary, class is permanent' and drop the 'poor' bit.

Ultimately, you're record is a refelection of your ability. Shield cricket has had countless guys put up 1 or 2 years of great cricket surrounded by mediocrity, everyone finds their natural level. Noffke once had a year where he averaged close to 45 with the bat and sub 20 with the ball, Klinger has consecutive seasons averaging around 70, the list goes on and on.

The guys with class put it on the board year after year after year, Marsh aint one of them. David Hussey must shake his head in disbelief as these blokes collect their baggy greens while he puts together his 10th consecutive outstanding shield season!
 

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Ultimately, you're record is a refelection of your ability. Shield cricket has had countless guys put up 1 or 2 years of great cricket surrounded by mediocrity, everyone finds their natural level. Noffke once had a year where he averaged close to 45 with the bat and sub 20 with the ball, Klinger has consecutive seasons averaging around 70, the list goes on and on.

The guys with class put it on the board year after year after year, Marsh aint one of them. David Hussey must shake his head in disbelief as these blokes collect their baggy greens while he puts together his 10th consecutive outstanding shield season!
Add Chris Rogers and Stuart Law, who along with Hussey are even more unlucky than Hodge and North not to have been able to make more of their international careers.

This is exactly why Khawaja who has now put together several outstanding Shield seasons should have been given more time to find his feet.
 

Thommo 42

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Add Chris Rogers and Stuart Law, who along with Hussey are even more unlucky than Hodge and North not to have been able to make more of their international careers.

This is exactly why Khawaja who has now put together several outstanding Shield seasons should have been given more time to find his feet.
Can't agree on Law in particular. He was unlucky in the sense that he played in an unbelieveable era of depth, but I wouldn't say he was particularly unlucky at the selection table. Most of his career he was competing for middle order places with Waugh x 2, Ponting, Martyn, Blewett, Langer etc In addition to other fringe dwellers like Katich, Hodge & Love.

Rogers was a bit unlucky as just as he was ready to take his place in the side, a bloke called Hughes came along and averaged about 70 in first 2 shield seasons and leapfrogged him. By the time Hughes had failed, they had middle order players opening (Watson/Katich) and Rogers missed the most crucial 12 months of his career with a knee injury.

D.Hussey is unlucky because he (like Hodge) has just been mysteriously and repeatedly overlooked, even though spots in the middle order started to become available when Hussey was only 30 odd (incidentally, Hayden had played about 10 tests when he was 30, so still plenty of time for a long career). D.Hussey has been the best credentialed first class player in the last 3 years of middle order struggles, and seems to have never even been given a look in.

Hodge will remain an eternal mystery, they even gave him a go, he succeeded and then they still dropped him!
 
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Can't see Marsh touring the West Indies on the back of his form against India. Just hasn't looked up to it. Such a shame, as his century on debut against Sri Lanka was excellent.

EDIT - Marsh might still tour as a backup batsman, I suppose.
 
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How can anyone be serious about dropping Ponting and Hussey when these are the two they will be raplaced with? Clearly not up to it. Don't get me wrong, Khawaja will be a good cricketer, but one 50 in 7 or so matches isn't good enough. Come back when Punter's had enough.
 

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Agree with above sadly. Would dearly love for Ponting and Huss to be shoved out of the side but both Marsh and Khawaja has stuffed there recent opportunities and don't look capable at the moment.

Watson in for Marsh asap. That dismissal today was just absolutely disgusting. Don't know where in the order Watson bats but yea Marsh is the obvious out now.
 

frankrizzo

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Pity people just go on the raw stats, Khawaja faced some pretty dicey green tracks in his short 6 test career in south africa and against the kiwis and at least fought it out, marsh in current form might not have even survived an over on those same pitches.

Just two tests before being dumped Khawaja made what i thought was his breakthrough innings, his 65 set up our series saving run chase in south africa and yet it was basically forgotten while the more scratchy innings of 62 from ponting was praised as a career saving knock.

Yes i know ponting has the pedigree so he gets more rope but marsh certainly doesn't have the ponting style record and yet he was able to leapfrog Khawaja without any recent form to warrant it.
 

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Marsh may be a Test batsman, a 5 or 6 perhaps, but batting him at 3 is a joke. If you are looking at number THREE, Khawaja is so far ahead of Marsh it's laughable.
 

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Marsh may be a Test batsman, a 5 or 6 perhaps, but batting him at 3 is a joke. If you are looking at number THREE, Khawaja is so far ahead of Marsh it's laughable.
:thumbsu:

Anyhow, on the way to work this morning I got thinking in retrospect Marcus North was a little unlucky to be dropped. If they are going to put up with this from Marsh...
 
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