Past Kieren Jack - retired 2019

caesar88

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I think the only thing that has given Jack another chance at AFL level is the injury to McVeigh. I would've thought the plan was only to ever have one of them in the team at a given point.
But when does it end? Do we keep them around forever because we just cannot imagine this team without McVeigh and Jack’s leadership?
 

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MC Bad Genius

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But when does it end? Do we keep them around forever because we just cannot imagine this team without McVeigh and Jack’s leadership?
I'm not saying I agree with that, but it seems to have been the decision made. If McVeigh didn't get injured, he was playing well enough to keep his spot in the side even without his leadership.
 

RUNVS

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How many other teams are keeping in a player in their best 22 who is averaging around 8 disposals a game simply because they are experienced?
 

CheapCharlie

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But when does it end? Do we keep them around forever because we just cannot imagine this team without McVeigh and Jack’s leadership?
This is surely Jack's last year.
He has been sadly out of top form for a couple of years now, but i don't mind us having him in the 22. Having the solid experience on field is only going to benefit the younger guys in years to come.
No way we are playing finals this year and sure play more youth, but manage them too
 

Number37

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So the Swans would be worse off getting 12 disposals at 70% from Rowbottom than we would getting 8 disposals at 55% from Jack?
Picking a player because they are old, for experience, is the same as picking a player because they are young, for learning.
It is not as cut and dried as some people like to make out and almost always the decision rests on who else is in the team.
 

RUNVS

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Picking a player because they are old, for experience, is the same as picking a player because they are young, for learning.
It is not as cut and dried as some people like to make out and almost always the decision rests on who else is in the team.
Learning though means scope for improvement. We all expect Rowbottom has a lot of growth in him as a player. Jack though, we all know he is only going to get worse, not better due to his age and condition of his body. Playing him is essentially like treading water as our team in 2020, 2021 is not going to benefit from Jack being in the team in 2019.
 

TheMase

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Learning though means scope for improvement. We all expect Rowbottom has a lot of growth in him as a player. Jack though, we all know he is only going to get worse, not better due to his age and condition of his body. Playing him is essentially like treading water as our team in 2020, 2021 is not going to benefit from Jack being in the team in 2019.
Whilst true, Rowbottom might also be a better player for working on specific parts of his game in an environment with more time and space (NEAFL). At AFL level that would be harder to do without compromising the rest of the team (whereas at NEAFL level that is not so important) or perhaps hurting his confidence.

I can see him yoyoing a little this year as he goes to learn, then back to seniors to apply etc. I don’t really see any issues with that for an 18 year old draftee.
 

caesar88

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Whilst true, Rowbottom might also be a better player for working on specific parts of his game in an environment with more time and space (NEAFL). At AFL level that would be harder to do without compromising the rest of the team (whereas at NEAFL level that is not so important) or perhaps hurting his confidence.

I can see him yoyoing a little this year as he goes to learn, then back to seniors to apply etc. I don’t really see any issues with that for an 18 year old draftee.
Which would be fine if we were a strong, dominant side and he just couldn’t get his opening in the best 22. But I honestly can’t see how a player who is averaging 28 possessions, 6 tackles and over a goal a game in the reserves cannot get a game in our team. We’ve played teenagers in years past who have not put together the body of work that this kid has, and we’ve just backed them in because we rate them and their potential even when they didn’t always show it.

I think there’s a point in a player’s development where you have to put aside the semantics and just reward a youngster who deserves it and who is doing everything right.
 

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TheMase

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Which would be fine if we were a strong, dominant side and he just couldn’t get his opening in the best 22. But I honestly can’t see how a player who is averaging 28 possessions, 6 tackles and over a goal a game in the reserves cannot get a game in our team. We’ve played teenagers in years past who have not put together the body of work that this kid has, and we’ve just backed them in because we rate them and their potential even when they didn’t always show it.

I think there’s a point in a player’s development where you have to put aside the semantics and just reward a youngster who deserves it and who is doing everything right.
I totally see where you’re coming from. I think he could be picked in seniors and he’d give a good account of himself. I am just saying I can see the value of what I think they are doing with him. His numbers are very good statistically, but they also have his GPS data as well as reviewing the vision what he does off the ball etc. That stuff could be good too, no idea not any idea what is specifically being asked of him.

In regards to those other players this is true however they were backed by more senior players at the time. Given the mix of our current senior group, I can see why they might err on the side of caution.

On that last point he is at the beginning of his development but again I know where you’re coming from.

Anyway in any case he is going to play lots of senior footy and he looks like a 200 gamer to me. Let’s hope he wants to spend those games playing in Red and White across his career! :)
 

TheMase

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It was ROK treatment time 18 months ago.

In comparison, in 2014, the season where ROK was dropped and never returned to the main team he played 4 games and averaged 11 disposals. Jack in comparison (this year) is averaging 10 disposals.
Find it hard how you can compare the two sides they played in. 2019 version of Jack wouldn’t be getting a game for the 2014 team.

2014 version of ROK would probably get a game for the 2019 Swans.
 

Number37

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Whilst true, Rowbottom might also be a better player for working on specific parts of his game in an environment with more time and space (NEAFL). At AFL level that would be harder to do without compromising the rest of the team (whereas at NEAFL level that is not so important) or perhaps hurting his confidence.

I can see him yoyoing a little this year as he goes to learn, then back to seniors to apply etc. I don’t really see any issues with that for an 18 year old draftee.
A bit of healthy competition amongst the young ones for senior spots would be good.
Rowbottom shows all the signs and could easily play seniors, every week...but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't.
 

Tedeski

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It was ROK treatment time 18 months ago.

In comparison, in 2014, the season where ROK was dropped and never returned to the main team he played 4 games and averaged 11 disposals. Jack in comparison (this year) is averaging 10 disposals.
You’ll be right one of these weeks. Keep trying. It will eventually happen.
 

caesar88

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I totally see where you’re coming from. I think he could be picked in seniors and he’d give a good account of himself. I am just saying I can see the value of what I think they are doing with him. His numbers are very good statistically, but they also have his GPS data as well as reviewing the vision what he does off the ball etc. That stuff could be good too, no idea not any idea what is specifically being asked of him.

In regards to those other players this is true however they were backed by more senior players at the time. Given the mix of our current senior group, I can see why they might err on the side of caution.

On that last point he is at the beginning of his development but again I know where you’re coming from.

Anyway in any case he is going to play lots of senior footy and he looks like a 200 gamer to me. Let’s hope he wants to spend those games playing in Red and White across his career! :)
Those games should be happening now instead of dragging out another 200+ game career that’s done
 

Tedeski

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So what Longmire does is always right and by definition that means anyone who disagrees with him is wrong?

No not at all. You will be proven right no doubt. It's just a matter of time frame but if you can be more specific with dates when you think all these people will be done, other than from 2015 when the guessing started until when their contracts end, then it will become life changing for you.............obviously.

Until then, from my family & I, 9 members in total, it's well done Kizza for your valued contribution in another win for the club.
 

RUNVS

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No not at all. You will be proven right no doubt. It's just a matter of time frame but if you can be more specific with dates when you think all these people will be done, other than from 2015 when the guessing started until when their contracts end, then it will become life changing for you.............obviously.

Until then, from my family & I, 9 members in total, it's well done Kizza for your valued contribution in another win for the club.
You make it sound like Jack played a big role in the win. He got 8 disposals. He was there, but he didn't really contribute.

My problem is that I think objectively in the here and now Rowbottom would provide more on the field than Jack would, and I find the argument that Jack needs to be there for leadership or something to be odd considering that eventually all captains and former captains retire. Leadership only works as a quality if the player is still playing at an okay level, sort of like Hodge. If Hodge became a liability to the Lions in terms of output he would get dropped because onfield leadership is only valuable if the players output is sufficient.

It is why Maxwell was retired by Collingwood, and Kirk was retired by us. Sooner or later great leaders (of which it is debateable if Jack would be considered a great leader) all are forced out because their on field performances just don't warrant their inclusion.

All Longmire is doing is telling the younger guys tearing it up in the NEAFL that the name of a person is more important than their performances.
 

Tedeski

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You make it sound like Jack played a big role in the win. He got 8 disposals. He was there, but he didn't really contribute.

My problem is that I think objectively in the here and now Rowbottom would provide more on the field than Jack would, and I find the argument that Jack needs to be there for leadership or something to be odd considering that eventually all captains and former captains retire. Leadership only works as a quality if the player is still playing at an okay level, sort of like Hodge. If Hodge became a liability to the Lions in terms of output he would get dropped because onfield leadership is only valuable if the players output is sufficient.

It is why Maxwell was retired by Collingwood, and Kirk was retired by us. Sooner or later great leaders (of which it is debateable if Jack would be considered a great leader) all are forced out because their on field performances just don't warrant their inclusion.

All Longmire is doing is telling the younger guys tearing it up in the NEAFL that the name of a person is more important than their performances.
You will be right soon. Be patient.
Jack played last night so those at the club that know more than you, say you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not saying that by the way because I didn't pick the team.
 

RUNVS

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You will be right soon. Be patient.
Jack played last night so those at the club that know more than you, say you don't know what you're talking about. I'm not saying that by the way because I didn't pick the team.
Yes but again you are implying there that coaches and the match committee are never wrong which is clearly an opinion no one should have.

We have clear evidence of mistakes as well since Buddy was not ready for the 2019 season since the Swans refused to get his ankle fixed properly in 2018. Then when Hannebery moved to St Kilda, St Kilda practically said outright that the Swans ran Hannebery into the ground and destroyed his body.
 

Tedeski

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Yes but again you are implying there that coaches and the match committee are never wrong which is clearly an opinion no one should have.

We have clear evidence of mistakes as well since Buddy was not ready for the 2019 season since the Swans refused to get his ankle fixed properly in 2018. Then when Hannebery moved to St Kilda, St Kilda practically said outright that the Swans ran Hannebery into the ground and destroyed his body.
Whoa there. I'm not implying anything & your assuming everyti\hing.

Though it is pretty irresponsible of any AFL club to force a player to have to play for their $1.5M & 800K salary.
But let's go with your assumption on Hanners. Why didn't the Saints do their due diligence if we wrecked his body an...an....an....an...and why did they not rest him & start "rebuild his body" when they recruited him back in October?:think::think::think:
 

The King!

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Whoa there. I'm not implying anything & your assuming everyti\hing.

Though it is pretty irresponsible of any AFL club to force a player to have to play for their $1.5M & 800K salary.
But let's go with your assumption on Hanners. Why didn't the Saints do their due diligence if we wrecked his body an...an....an....an...and why did they not rest him & start "rebuild his body" when they recruited him back in October?:think::think::think:
horse is great

players picked are wonderful

buddy is on 1.5 million

if jack is picked he must be good

copy and paste into your sig and save some time mate
 

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