Opinion Knightsight, Hinesight and Hindsight Nov 2016 and 2017

Knightmare

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Moore doing more rucking over time.
Emphatic yes from me.
I wonder if people realise that Moore could be a terrific ruck. In a few years think as a minimum just under Peter Moore levels, at a premium a dominant ruck.

Just my view on Moores talent levels, albeit potentially, as a ruck.

I see us being blessed in something at least for 2018.
Rucking down back with Moore.
Around the ground with AA contending Grundy.
Up front with the tallest player ever, Cox.

Gee that's something.

For what it's worth if we got Lukosius* and Lynch and surround them with the core of Grundy, Moore, De Goey, Maynard, Adams, Treloar and Pendlebury.... well be contending I reckon.

*I just cant get the idea of having a career player like a Nick Riewoldt in our midst.
So often what we have missed.
Moore I'm with you on mostly, though with a slight variation in my planned usage. I would like to see him get minutes through the ruck. Grundy is a star, and isn't great up forward, so he has to play behind Grundy, but Moore is ideal for those relieving minutes (conditional on there being two other suitable key forwards in the side to allow him to do this). And with Moore playing small being an athletic type who is terrific at ground level, Moore with two key forwards and a ruckman is the right height mix. On Moore, I would also give him occasional chances at centre bounces - as per Jarryd Roughead, as he has the height/size advantage, but like Roughead has the capacity to do it because he is so clean and capable at ground level, and has that power over the ground balls, and probably the size v midfielders with time to drag the ball forward and gain ground.

I agree having both at the club would be fantastic. Unless we are bottom 3, not sure if giving away our 2018 and 2019 1st round picks will be enough to get the number 1 pick in the draft...although you can never say never.

In terms of trading players for picks to free up cap space, I'd be interested to know who you think actually has some currency in the market place? Apart from Fas, I'm not so sure we have alot to work with that we can afford to give up. DO we make the bold move and offer up Sidebottom? Grundy? Elliot?
It would take a bottom three pick to be in the mix for Lukosius, as a bare minimum to be in the running.

Grundy, Moore, Pendlebury, Treloar and Adams are the untouchables. Howe and Varcoe due to stage of career you probably don't trade either. And with few good kicks and penetrating kicks from defence, Maynard also is a keeper.

As for some names. Potentially Elliott and Langdon are two that come to mind who could be moved. With Elliott, his injuries are concerning, but he's relatively replacable with several small/medium marking forwards, Fasolo could be an alternative though probably doesn't carry the same currency. Similarly Langdon I feel is replaceable down back with several interceptors, and some better skilled types on the list who could replace him. De Goey maybe, given the depth of numbers through the midfield. They're among the better players who could be considered in trades, if it means moving up to Lukosius in the draft.

If Collingwood were assured of securing Lukosius. Let's say Collingwood finish with pick 6. If Collingwood pair pick 6 with their 2018 first round pick, and that secured Lukosius. I'd do that every day of the week. I'd also consider throwing a player into the deal if it gets it over the line, with the player offered depending on how we see the value proposition.
 

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Moore I'm with you on mostly, though with a slight variation in my planned usage. I would like to see him get minutes through the ruck. Grundy is a star, and isn't great up forward, so he has to play behind Grundy, but Moore is ideal for those relieving minutes (conditional on there being two other suitable key forwards in the side to allow him to do this). And with Moore playing small being an athletic type who is terrific at ground level, Moore with two key forwards and a ruckman is the right height mix. On Moore, I would also give him occasional chances at centre bounces - as per Jarryd Roughead, as he has the height/size advantage, but like Roughead has the capacity to do it because he is so clean and capable at ground level, and has that power over the ground balls, and probably the size v midfielders with time to drag the ball forward and gain ground.
I'm really hoping that Cox works out, in which case we'd be much better off with the better ruckman - Cox - in the ruck and to be honest, I'm yet to see anything to suggest that Moore is terrific at ground level.
 

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Schraderbrau

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Moore I'm with you on mostly, though with a slight variation in my planned usage. I would like to see him get minutes through the ruck. Grundy is a star, and isn't great up forward, so he has to play behind Grundy, but Moore is ideal for those relieving minutes (conditional on there being two other suitable key forwards in the side to allow him to do this). And with Moore playing small being an athletic type who is terrific at ground level, Moore with two key forwards and a ruckman is the right height mix. On Moore, I would also give him occasional chances at centre bounces - as per Jarryd Roughead, as he has the height/size advantage, but like Roughead has the capacity to do it because he is so clean and capable at ground level, and has that power over the ground balls, and probably the size v midfielders with time to drag the ball forward and gain ground.
Even if Moore was as good on the ground as the next midfielder (he isn't imo), what is to be gained from putting our premium forward target in at the bounces to do a job that any ordinary midfielder could do. With all due respect to Moore, he doesn't have the agility, clean hands, composure and awareness that Roughead has (the only other forward in the last decade who does was the bloke drafted just after him) . And even though Roughead was good enough do a job at bounces, I question whether it was really in Hawthorn's best interests to have him in there, even though (unlike us) they could afford to lose him given the other talent they had up front. I wonder how much time he spent in at bounces in big games and finals.

Also teaching Moore to play in the middle takes away from time he should be using to learn how to play forward and takes away from the time we should be giving to other young midfielders to learn how to play in the square.

Also surprised you consider De Goey tradeable when he is potentially our best midfielder and began to show that last season. I mean it's not as if his form has been on a downward trajectory, he is still one of the best performed midfielders from that draft. His kicking improved dramatically last season and he demonstrated that he can be a match winner. Can't think of anyone on the list I'd want to trade less tbh.
 
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Quicky

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Even if Moore was as good on the ground as the next midfielder (he isn't imo), what is to be gained from putting our premium forward target in at the bounces to do a job that any ordinary midfielder could do. All do respect to Moore but he doesn't have the agility, clean hands, composure and awareness that Roughead has (the only other forward in the last decade who does was the bloke drafted just after him) . And even though Roughead was good enough do a job at bounces, I question whether it was really in Hawthorn's best interests to have him in there, even though (unlike us) they could afford to lose him given the other talent they had up front. I wonder how much time he spent in at bounces in big games and finals.

Also teaching Moore to play in the middle takes away from time he should be using to learn how to play forward and takes away from the time we should be giving to other young midfielders to learn how to play in the square.

Also surprised you don't consider De Goey an untouchable when he is potentially our best midfielder and began to show that last season. I mean it's not as if his form has been on a downward trajectory and he is still one of the best performed midfielders from that draft.
I reckon Moore in the ruck loosens the chains a bit. It gives him more freedom and confidence. And he takes that back to the 50 when he returns there. He's been excellent as a forward ruck and I quite like it we play him in there. But as a ruck not midfielder.
 

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Even if Moore was as good on the ground as the next midfielder (he isn't imo), what is to be gained from putting our premium forward target in at the bounces to do a job that any ordinary midfielder could do. All do respect to Moore but he doesn't have the agility, clean hands, composure and awareness that Roughead has (the only other forward in the last decade who does was the bloke drafted just after him) . And even though Roughead was good enough do a job at bounces, I question whether it was really in Hawthorn's best interests to have him in there, even though (unlike us) they could afford to lose him given the other talent they had up front. I wonder how much time he spent in at bounces in big games and finals.

Also teaching Moore to play in the middle takes away from time he should be using to learn how to play forward and takes away from the time we should be giving to other young midfielders to learn how to play in the square.

Also surprised you consider De Goey tradeable when he is potentially our best midfielder and began to show that last season. I mean it's not as if his form has been on a downward trajectory and he is still one of the best performed midfielders from that draft. His kicking improved dramatically last season and he demonstrated that he can be a match winner. Can't think of anyone on the list I'd prefer to trade less tbh.
I don't mind using Moore at the bounce as a shock tactic - my recollection is that Clarko used Roughy in the same way or if matchups allowed it. For instance if someone like Pat Cripps was dominating the square, throwing Darcy at the bounce could occasionally help us (assuming Bucks has the tactical acumen).

And giving Moore time in the middle may actually help his development, as he learns to contest for the ball in tight spaces as well as learning the value of spreading out to give his team mates an option. Nothing wrong with developing him in these areas as it'll complement his forward play.

Agree with your sentiments re JDG. Totally untouchable at the moment
 

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I reckon Moore in the ruck loosens the chains a bit. It gives him more freedom and confidence. And he takes that back to the 50 when he returns there. He's been excellent as a forward ruck and I quite like it we play him in there. But as a ruck not midfielder.
I read it as Moore playing ruck-rover but I could be wrong.

Agree with you that Moore does seem to get some confidence from finding the ball upfield and would tolerate him playing second ruck if Cox weren't in the 22.

The problem is, for 2018 anyway, if Moore is in the ruck who is the forward target?
 
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Schraderbrau

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I don't mind using Moore at the bounce as a shock tactic - my recollection is that Clarko used Roughy in the same way or if matchups allowed it. For instance if someone like Pat Cripps was dominating the square, throwing Darcy at the bounce could occasionally help us (assuming Bucks has the tactical acumen).

And giving Moore time in the middle may actually help his development, as he learns to contest for the ball in tight spaces as well as learning the value of spreading out to give his team mates an option. Nothing wrong with developing him in these areas as it'll complement his forward play.

Agree with your sentiments re JDG. Totally untouchable at the moment
Hawthorn could do whatever they like because they were beating everyone. As a team we have so many problems to solve and putting moore in the square a few times a match barely contributes anything to us winning that I just don't see the point. The only thing I can see coming from it is confusing a talented but inconsistent young forward who has already been saddled with the difficult task of being our no 1 forward at the age of 21. Plus I don't think he'd be much good at it because of agility, composure, vision, intelligence, experience etc.

It's also not as if we're lacking big bodies around the ball. Wills, Pendlebury, Greenwood, De Goey, Maynard, Crisp - all big units. We're not going to get bossed in midfield with these guys around and Grundy/Cox rucking. Or if we do it's time to get a new midfielder coach.
 

Quicky

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I read it as Moore playing ruck-rover but I could be wrong.

Agree with you that Moore does seem to get some confidence from finding the ball upfield and would tolerate him playing second ruck if Cox weren't in the 22.

The problem is, for 2018 anyway, if Moore is in the ruck who is the forward target?
Cox if that happened. Thst said while we go Grundy, Cox, Moore there won't be much use of Moore in the ruck.
 

Boris the Contradiction

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Hawthorn could do whatever they like because they were beating everyone. As a team we have so many problems to solve and putting moore in the square a few times a match barely contributes anything to us winning that I just don't see the point. The only thing I can see coming from it is confusing a talented but inconsistent young forward who has already been saddled with the difficult task of being our no 1 forward at the age of 21. Plus I don't think he'd be much good at it because of agility, composure, vision, intelligence, experience etc.

It's also not as if we're lacking big bodies around the ball. Wills, Pendlebury, Greenwood, De Goey, Maynard, Crisp - all big units. We're not going to get bossed in midfield with these guys around and Grundy/Cox rucking. Or if we do it's time to get a new midfielder coach.
Agreed.

The kid is our best key forward and one of, if not the, best in the league in his age bracket. He can be inconsistent because he is young, but he has shown incredible ability and has improved from year to year.

We should be developing him in that role exclusively IMO. I don't see how playing a player in the ruck can develop him as a forward, more than playing him as a forward can.

Despite my feelings on the above I can see why people think differently as to the potential value of ruck time. What I can't understand, however, are the calls to play him as a defender for his "development". This is lunacy.

If we see Moore as a long term forward, playing him as a defender for a year will achieve nothing but stall his development as a forward for a year.

If we see Moore as a long term defender, playing him as a defender makes more sense. However, the whole concept of developing Moore as a long term defender is lunacy in and of itself (although that's a different discussion).
 

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Agreed.

The kid is our best key forward and one of, if not the, best in the league in his age bracket. He can be inconsistent because he is young, but he has shown incredible ability and has improved from year to year.

We should be developing him in that role exclusively IMO. I don't see how playing a player in the ruck can develop him as a forward, more than playing him as a forward can.

Despite my feelings on the above I can see why people think differently as to the potential value of ruck time. What I can't understand, however, are the calls to play him as a defender for his "development". This is lunacy.

If we see Moore as a long term forward, playing him as a defender for a year will achieve nothing but stall his development as a forward for a year.

If we see Moore as a long term defender, playing him as a defender makes more sense. However, the whole concept of developing Moore as a long term defender is lunacy in and of itself (although that's a different discussion).
Playing him as a defender will be the biggest cop-out unless we're 100% certain of obtaining Lynch at the end of 2018, and given that the year hasn't even started yet I can't see how we can be.
 

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Agreed.

The kid is our best key forward and one of, if not the, best in the league in his age bracket. He can be inconsistent because he is young, but he has shown incredible ability and has improved from year to year.

We should be developing him in that role exclusively IMO. I don't see how playing a player in the ruck can develop him as a forward, more than playing him as a forward can.

Despite my feelings on the above I can see why people think differently as to the potential value of ruck time. What I can't understand, however, are the calls to play him as a defender for his "development". This is lunacy.

If we see Moore as a long term forward, playing him as a defender for a year will achieve nothing but stall his development as a forward for a year.

If we see Moore as a long term defender, playing him as a defender makes more sense. However, the whole concept of developing Moore as a long term defender is lunacy in and of itself (although that's a different discussion).
Yeah don't get me started on the Moore to defence thought bubble :D. Not only does it stifle his development but it also screws the team when the one constant forward target we've had the last 3 seasons all of a sudden isn't there anymore.

Despite the talk, I doubt (hope) we don't see too much of Moore in defence in 2018
 

si tacuisses

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Hawthorn could do whatever they like because they were beating everyone. As a team we have so many problems to solve and putting moore in the square a few times a match barely contributes anything to us winning that I just don't see the point. The only thing I can see coming from it is confusing a talented but inconsistent young forward who has already been saddled with the difficult task of being our no 1 forward at the age of 21. Plus I don't think he'd be much good at it because of agility, composure, vision, intelligence, experience etc.

It's also not as if we're lacking big bodies around the ball. Wills, Pendlebury, Greenwood, De Goey, Maynard, Crisp - all big units. We're not going to get bossed in midfield with these guys around and Grundy/Cox rucking. Or if we do it's time to get a new midfielder coach.
The last thing we want is to say "we're losing so we shouldn't try what the winners do".

I reckon we should at least trial him in the centre once or twice. Sudden flood of height might disconcert/confuse/throw off the other team. In fact, this kind of sudden mid-game variation and experimentation is exactly what I'd like to see MORE of from Bucks as coach.
 

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The last thing we want is to say "we're losing so we shouldn't try what the winners do".

I reckon we should at least trial him in the centre once or twice. Sudden flood of height might disconcert/confuse/throw off the other team. In fact, this kind of sudden mid-game variation and experimentation is exactly what I'd like to see MORE of from Bucks as coach.
Alistair Clarkson likes to punch stuff, I suppose we should tell bucks to do that as well :D

And if the aim is to disconcert/confuse/throw off the other team why don't we play Cox as the ruck rover? I'd much prefer we focus on winning clearances and kicking goals and that means having all of our players playing in their best positions. None of this experimental rubbish that sees our best key forward spending time in a position he has no experience in at the expense of players who are much better at that role than him.
 
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Three seasons for Mr Moore thus far, great upside and all that.

Goals season 1: 9
Goals season 2: 24
Goals season 3: 25

Going at 1.23 or so per game.

Let's not call him a great forward just yet.
It's all in front of him; but he hasn't done it yet, not even close.

Might be good for him to learn AFL standard defence.

All part of it.

However do suspect he'll be our long term key forward piece. Just not there yet.
 

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The last thing we want is to say "we're losing so we shouldn't try what the winners do".

I reckon we should at least trial him in the centre once or twice. Sudden flood of height might disconcert/confuse/throw off the other team. In fact, this kind of sudden mid-game variation and experimentation is exactly what I'd like to see MORE of from Bucks as coach.
Sudden influx of goals would confuse them more.
 

si tacuisses

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Alistair Clarkson likes to punch stuff, I suppose we should tell bucks to do that as well :D

And if the aim is to disconcert/confuse/throw off the other team why don't we play Cox as the ruck rover? I'd much prefer we focus on winning clearances and kicking goals and that means having all of our players playing in their best positions. None of this experimental rubbish that sees our best key forward spending time in a position he has no experience in at the expense of players who are much better at that role than him.
Not saying we copy everything, hahaha.

And I don't mean do it every game, just if we think the situation could benefit from it.
 

Boris the Contradiction

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Three seasons for Mr Moore thus far, great upside and all that.

Goals season 1: 9
Goals season 2: 24
Goals season 3: 25

Going at 1.23 or so per game.

Let's not call him a great forward just yet.
It's all in front of him; but he hasn't done it yet, not even close.

Might be good for him to learn AFL standard defence.

All part of it.

However do suspect he'll be our long term key forward piece. Just not there yet.
Marks season 1: 29
Marks season 2: 77
Marks season 3: 125

Possessions season 1: 81
Possessions season 2: 154
Possessions season 3: 220

The goals will come. He is developing rapidly nevertheless and is still 21.

He will not develop as a forward more effectively by playing as a defender, than he will by playing as a forward.
 
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Marks season 1: 29
Marks season 2: 77
Marks season 3: 125

Possessions season 1: 81
Possessions season 2: 154
Possessions season 3: 220

The goals will come. He is developing rapidly nevertheless and is still 21.

He will not develop as a forward more effectively by playing as a defender, than he will by playing as a forward.
He looks the goods, sure.

He is projecting upwards.

Just not there yet. I'm sure it's coming, but we're just waiting for it.

Hopefully it's 2018
 

Boris the Contradiction

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He looks the goods, sure.

He is projecting upwards.

Just not there yet. I'm sure it's coming, but we're just waiting for it.

Hopefully it's 2018
Hope so. I am just so excited about Moore and De Goey. Every now and then a player comes along that just so obviously "has it" that it almost feels ominous. I feel this way about both these guys.

The last one we had was Beams. Was obvious two minutes into his first preseason game that he was going to be something. Such a shame we couldn't hold onto him, although we wouldn't have De Goey if we did! Such is life.
 

Bard

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Hope so. I am just so excited about Moore and De Goey. Every now and again a player confess along that just do obviously "has it" that it almost feels ominous. I feel this was about both these guys.

The last one we had was Beams. Was obvious two minutes into his first preseason game that he was going to be something. Such a shame we couldn't hold onto him, although we wouldn't have Decided Goey if we did! Such is life.
Beams has been injured half his time at Brisbane anyway. I feel like it was probably a win-win trade for both teams, we certainly didn't lose out of it.
 

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