Opinion Knightsight v Hinesight v Hindsight 2015

[Robroy22]

I think you need the right mix of both in your team, but i am very surprised that you rank Mitchell above both Fyfe and Pendles.
Fyfe has been the best player in the comp for 2 years straight, and by quite a fair margin.
Mitchell's 2015 was better than Pendles, but over their careers (if Pendles maintains his level) i would much rather have Pendles.

As i said you need both.
But i also agree with the idea proposed (but very badly worded) by Carey, that Mitchell on a poor team would be rated very differently. He would still be a top 20 or so mid, but nowhere near the top mids in the game.
Pendles - that is questionable.
Fyfe? He would be a champion on any team - same as Ablett.

I think I must rate players differently to lots of other people then because I rate them on what they do in finals or BIG games. Pendles won a Norm Smith so he can play, but Mitchell has been so vital for that Hawthorn side that he's won their B+F 4 times in a team that's supposidly full of champions everywhere. Fyfe I'll admit looks like a beauty but I'll wait till he's won a big game to tout him as the best in the comp.

As for Mitchell playing in a poor team? Carey's just a nong! He's basically roved to opposition rucks his entire career because the Hawthorn rucks have been so ordinary, its never stopped him dominating clearances. If Fyfe didn't have Sandilands would he be so dominant? Pendles doesn't appear as dominant as 2010-2011 when he had Jolly winning so many taps for him and Bally doing the grunt work.

I'm gonna give up flogging a dead horse here but just a case in point from my own club. Charlie Curnow is being touted as a massive midfielder by the "draft watchers" yes he can run (like everyone else in his family) but unless the blues are gonna transplant a midfielders brain and nous into what's always been a KPP's body...its just hype, like so many others of these "big mids"

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I think I must rate players differently to lots of other people then because I rate them on what they do in finals or BIG games. Pendles won a Norm Smith so he can play, but Mitchell has been so vital for that Hawthorn side that he's won their B+F 4 times in a team that's supposidly full of champions everywhere. Fyfe I'll admit looks like a beauty but I'll wait till he's won a big game to tout him as the best in the comp.

As for Mitchell playing in a poor team? Carey's just a nong! He's basically roved to opposition rucks his entire career because the Hawthorn rucks have been so ordinary, its never stopped him dominating clearances. If Fyfe didn't have Sandilands would he be so dominant? Pendles doesn't appear as dominant as 2010-2011 when he had Jolly winning so many taps for him and Bally doing the grunt work.

I'm gonna give up flogging a dead horse here but just a case in point from my own club. Charlie Curnow is being touted as a massive midfielder by the "draft watchers" yes he can run (like everyone else in his family) but unless the blues are gonna transplant a midfielders brain and nous into what's always been a KPP's body...its just hype, like so many others of these "big mids"

It's fair enough to rate someone on "big games" but don't do that in isolation of their whole careers, and don't do it in isolation of the teams they play for.

Of course he has had more big games - he's played for a team that's won 4 flags. Yes he's a very important part of their team, but he's also surrounded by champions. Also he may be 4-time BnF, but not one of those have come in a premiership season. Take from that what you will, but in no flag-year did his club think he was their best player that year, and he has not won Norm Smith in any of those games - again, take from it what you will.

If you are looking at "Big Games" then you MUST rate Fyfe incredibly highly, and above Mitchell IMO, even on his short career.
If not for some poor goal kicking in the '13 GF, Fyfe has been nothing but incredible in big games. In fact, often, he's one of the few dockers players to step up. In this years prelim he wasn't far off BOG despite playing on one leg and being barely able to move. Fyfe IS the best player in the game right now, and his performance in big games is a big part of that... noone comes close to Fyfe for the last 2 years. And I don't think Mitchell has ever had a year that I would rate alongside Fyfe's last 2.

 

[BPikkers]

I think Bucks got Read of the Vet's as they were MM Boys and did not like what Bucks Brought in and some where not big Bucks Fans.

Fraser and Thomas going backwards Injuries played a big part of that and I did not sees Didak go Backwards

Didak suffered from injury as well

 

[BPikkers]

I just love Heeney. I think he is just on top of DGoey. Free with most of the rest. Looking forward to watching petracca. Also Lever looks excellent

 

[Saintly Viewed]

It's fair enough to rate someone on "big games" but don't do that in isolation of their whole careers, and don't do it in isolation of the teams they play for.

Of course he has had more big games - he's played for a team that's won 4 flags. Yes he's a very important part of their team, but he's also surrounded by champions. Also he may be 4-time BnF, but not one of those have come in a premiership season. Take from that what you will, but in no flag-year did his club think he was their best player that year, and he has not won Norm Smith in any of those games - again, take from it what you will.

If you are looking at "Big Games" then you MUST rate Fyfe incredibly highly, and above Mitchell IMO, even on his short career.
If not for some poor goal kicking in the '13 GF, Fyfe has been nothing but incredible in big games. In fact, often, he's one of the few dockers players to step up. In this years prelim he wasn't far off BOG despite playing on one leg and being barely able to move. Fyfe IS the best player in the game right now, and his performance in big games is a big part of that... noone comes close to Fyfe for the last 2 years. And I don't think Mitchell has ever had a year that I would rate alongside Fyfe's last 2.

I'm with you.
Mitchell is a fine player, but Fyfe already better with one proviso, Mitchell been good for a long time.

Mitchell v Pendlebury is so clear to me that Scott is the better player I simply only offer this question:
If either Collingwood or Hawthorn could only take one of them for their whole careers who would they take?
Both clubs would take Pendlebury in heart beat. .and hawthorn would be far scarier with Scott than Sam.

 

[BPikkers]

It's fair enough to rate someone on "big games" but don't do that in isolation of their whole careers, and don't do it in isolation of the teams they play for.

Of course he has had more big games - he's played for a team that's won 4 flags. Yes he's a very important part of their team, but he's also surrounded by champions. Also he may be 4-time BnF, but not one of those have come in a premiership season. Take from that what you will, but in no flag-year did his club think he was their best player that year, and he has not won Norm Smith in any of those games - again, take from it what you will.

If you are looking at "Big Games" then you MUST rate Fyfe incredibly highly, and above Mitchell IMO, even on his short career.
If not for some poor goal kicking in the '13 GF, Fyfe has been nothing but incredible in big games. In fact, often, he's one of the few dockers players to step up. In this years prelim he wasn't far off BOG despite playing on one leg and being barely able to move. Fyfe IS the best player in the game right now, and his performance in big games is a big part of that... noone comes close to Fyfe for the last 2 years. And I don't think Mitchell has ever had a year that I would rate alongside Fyfe's last 2.

Mitchell is all polish and class on both sides of his body. He hits targets consistently. May not be the same athlete as Fyfe, but his kicking and hand balling make the Hawks look a lot better than how Fyfe makes the dockers look.

Both great players. One more as an individual while the other makes his team great.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

Mitchell is all polish and class on both sides of his body. He hits targets consistently. May not be the same athlete as Fyfe, but his kicking and hand balling make the Hawks look a lot better than how Fyfe makes the dockers look.

Both great players. One more as an individual while the other makes his team great.

I agree that Mitchell is all polish and class, but I really, really disagree with the bolded bits.

Take Mitchell out of the Hawks and they probably still win those flags - or would at least be a strong chance to do so.
Take Fyfe out of the Dockers and we're looking at a 5-8 team, not a premiership contender.

Suggesting that Fyfe is only a great individual but doesn't make his team better suggests to me that you don't watch enough of the Dockers.
As a west aussie, I have seen a lot of the Dockers and a lot of Fyfe.

At the half-way point of this year, a healthy Fyfe was having the type of season like none we've ever seen (seriously, has anyone ever had that many Brownlow votes in that short a run?) - and this wasn't votes just based on high possession numbers. This guy was dominating almost every single game he played, and was consistently BOG by a very big margin. And when he was playing so well? The Dockers were well clear on top of the ladder and looked like they would run away with the flag.

Once Fyfe got injured, they were a completely different team - and looked very average when Fyfe was not palying or was hurt. (People complain about Lyon not resting Fyfe enough this year, and that is fair enough - except they would very clearly have lost top spot, and Top 4 would've been in question, if they rested him more). You CANNOT have watched the dockers this year, and not acknowledge how much better he makes his team. It's not even close.

 

[SchuPie]

I just love Heeney. I think he is just on top of DGoey. Free with most of the rest. Looking forward to watching petracca. Also Lever looks excellent

Lever was my pick for no5 before the draft.
V happy w DGo but would have loved to have got Moore for 2nd rounder (the pipe dream) and then been able to take Lever at 9

 

[TradeDraft]

Lever was my pick for no5 before the draft.
V happy w DGo but would have loved to have got Moore for 2nd rounder (the pipe dream) and then been able to take Lever at 9

Only Chance we had getting Moore in the 2nd Round is IF we won the Wooden Spoon

 

[SchuPie]

Only Chance we had getting Moore in the 2nd Round is IF we won the Wooden Spoon

Agree Dave - I just really wanted to draft Lever somehow

 

[mike123]

I'd have Mitchell over Fyfe any day of the week, can actually hit a target.

 

[DWil6]

Mitchell is an out and out gun. A super star. He's the backbone of the mighty Hawthorn team. More so even than Hodge. He's been unlucky not to win a few Brownlows too. Consistently one of the best players in the comp and the engine room leader in a superstar team. With Mitchell in Hawks colours, it's no surprise they have threepeated.

 

[sirlothie]

Yes Mitchell is a champion but on the other hand you do get a lot of 180cm, slow players who turn out to be lemons so even though every 190cm player won't be Pendlebury, every 180cm player won't be Mitchell.

 

[Heritier 09]

Fyfe is from a different planet to Mitchell.

Mitchell is a gun. Fyfe is an alien.

He's the best I've seen since early days WC judd. Maybe better for the marking ability.

More Brownlow votes than games played. And that's not stopping in a hurry.

Pendles v Mitchell is a good comparison. Pendles had him until he broke his leg vs gc in 2012. In my opinion the upward curve he was on at that point has since flatlined.
Still a star, but Mitchell's last 3 years are better for mine

 

[TradeDraft]

Mitchell is an out and out gun. A super star. He's the backbone of the mighty Hawthorn team. More so even than Hodge. He's been unlucky not to win a few Brownlows too. Consistently one of the best players in the comp and the engine room leader in a superstar team. With Mitchell in Hawks colours, it's no surprise they have threepeated.

But he is not the most Fairest though

 

[DRIZZT]

But he is not the most Fairest though

Snow white wins that hands down
Thats what the mirror tells me anyway

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Swan v Mitchell probably the better comparison.
Swan for me, I think if Mitchell was say in Melbourne nobody would say he's a star more a boomer Harvey level and Swan is better than boomer.
My 2 cents rounded down

 

[Robroy22]

It's fair enough to rate someone on "big games" but don't do that in isolation of their whole careers, and don't do it in isolation of the teams they play for.

: So you think Sam Mitchell only plays well in the big games? Isolate his entire career and you'll see he's incredibly consistent, he's had to be to keep getting a game. Being from the "too slow, too small" brigade Mitchell has had to excel at his style of play (contested posession, clearances, inside feeds to outside runners and pin point disposal on both sides of his body) in every season he's played

Of course he has had more big games - he's played for a team that's won 4 flags. Yes he's a very important part of their team, but he's also surrounded by champions.

: So its easier to maintain a position as a GUN midfielder at a great club full of champions? Surely there'd be more competition for spots and in Hawthorn's case they've always traded in just what they needed to keep on winning....strangely enough, since he started winning them 75% of clearances Mitchell has never been dropped, never been mooted as "tradeable"....he's missed about 10 games in the last dozen years. He's also the first player chosen by everyone at his club in terms of who's the most valuable to the team

If you are looking at "Big Games" then you MUST rate Fyfe incredibly highly, and above Mitchell IMO, even on his short career.

: You're correct I DO rate Fyfe incredibly highly....but above Mitchell? Not even in the same street until Fyfe has the body of work behind him as Mitchell (or Judd, or Pendles, or GAJ). He's a great kid Fyfe....and I hope he goes onto be the best there's ever been, but until he does....a couple of great years is just a couple of great years.

I also agree that Fyfe has been one of the few Dockers to step up in finals and he was incredibly brave to play with his injury in the GF....but no more brave than Millane, or Adam Goodes and hundreds of others who have done the same in an attempt to win a flag.





And I don't think Mitchell has ever had a year that I would rate alongside Fyfe's last 2.

And that of course is your right and I applaud you for it, I simply don't agree. For mine, great mids like Mitchell, Tony Shaw and Greg Williams will always stand the test of time because they make their teams function better.

 

[Robroy22]

I agree that Mitchell is all polish and class, but I really, really disagree with the bolded bits.

Take Mitchell out of the Hawks and they probably still win those flags - or would at least be a strong chance to do so.
Take Fyfe out of the Dockers and we're looking at a 5-8 team, not a premiership contender.

: So if Mitchell doesn't play in those grand finals you're saying Hawthorn might still have won? Or they could have lost....fact is he did and they did, thats why I rate him so highly. Without his knowledge and skill he unbalances their entire structure.


Suggesting that Fyfe is only a great individual but doesn't make his team better suggests to me that you don't watch enough of the Dockers.

: Totally agree, Fyfe makes the Dockers tick over and he's their barometer. Without him they are ordinary.


At the half-way point of this year, a healthy Fyfe was having the type of season like none we've ever seen (seriously, has anyone ever had that many Brownlow votes in that short a run?) - and this wasn't votes just based on high possession numbers. This guy was dominating almost every single game he played, and was consistently BOG by a very big margin.

: I hate to burst your bubble again but Have you ever heard of Johnny Greening? He was Fyfe on steroids and would have won the 1972 Brownlow by 50 votes had Jimmy O'Dea not "intervened". Peter Moore had a couple of "unbelievably dominant" years when he won Brownlows too and Paul Salmon absolutely obliterated the league when he burst onto the scene as a 200cm full forward in 1984 (63 goals in 12 rounds before he did his ACL).....Gary Ablett snr?, Coleman?,.....Fyfe had a great start to the season but its all been done before.

It's not even close.

: Again I agree. One's been a champion for a decade, ones been a champ for a couple of years, apples and oranges.

 

[Apex36]

: Again I agree. One's been a champion for a decade, ones been a champ for a couple of years, apples and oranges.

Longevity is not an indication of quality. As of now, Fyfe is light years ahead of Mitchell. He will likely be up there for many years to come.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with their height though...

 

[Robroy22]

Longevity is not an indication of quality.

: Longevity at the highest level is though (an indication of the highest quality)

As of now, Fyfe is light years ahead of Mitchell. He will likely be up there for many years to come.

:Maybe (I hope so cos I love watching him play) but until he has......Mitchell has the runs on the board. Last time I looked: "What might happen" doesn't stack up against "What already has happened"

 

[Prochard123]

Menegola has certainly been very good this year