Kouta: get draft pick

[sherb]

I guess it depends on how you define supporting. Certainly I don't regard supporting as advocating the club to lose in any circumstances - never have, never will.

It appears now to me that we have two classes of supporters - those who want to win at all times, and those who want to selectively win. Or those who regard as all wins as important, and those who regard some wins as important and other wins as meaningless.

Unfortunately, the "abuse" has been flying both ways. I have seen people here who want to win at all costs being accused of not having the best interests of the club at heart. Whilst not falling into the "calling people a scumbag" category, it isn't very complimentary either - and is most certainly divisive. There are other instances of similar uncomplimentary accusations being levelled at these people as well (which I can't be bothered digging up).

The people who have been advocating losing have every right to their opinion, and every right to express it. I can only speak from my point of view, but whilst I won't "abuse" them, I reserve my right to have little or no respect for them. I have to say I feel slightly ashamed to be a part of a supporter base which has a portion of it openly wanting the club to lose matches.

And if all that means I have lost respect for Koutoufides as well - then yes I have to some extent. And irrespective of your views on wanting the draft pick or not, it was just a dumb, dumb thing for Kouta to come out and say publicly, as all it has done is add fuel to the "tanking" accusations - both in the general football world and for the mindless Carlton-hating and Carlton-obsessed trolls (without naming names ) here on BigFooty.

As I have said before, my view is that you win as many games as you can and then take the draft picks on offer. Once you do that, you then concentrate on developing those players. If that occurs I have every confidence in the club achieving success - high draft picks or no high draft picks.

 

[Smell The Glove]

That's disappointing. I expected more from Koutoufides, Elliot and Rhys Jones.

 

[Deej]

I guess it depends on how you define supporting. Certainly I don't regard supporting as advocating the club to lose in any circumstances - never have, never will.

It appears now to me that we have two classes of supporters - those who want to win at all times, and those who want to selectively win. Or those who regard as all wins as important, and those who regard some wins as important and other wins as meaningless.

I respect your opinions but you haven't quite nailed the opposing perspective. It's not that we want the club to lose, it's that with the bigger picture of the mechanics of the draft system in mind we believe that to lose on sunday will be the actual true win. See we're barracking for the club to win too, it's just we have a different idea about what needs to take place on sunday for us to get the actual real win (as opposed to getting the 4 points which I believe is meaningless in this situation).

 

[sherb]

That's disappointing. I expected more from Koutoufides, Elliot and Rhys Jones.

Koutoufides and Rhys-Jones, yes.

Elliott, however - nothing to this day would surprise me what came out of his mouth. So no surprise there whatsoever.

 

[Scruff83]

it's that with the bigger picture of the mechanics of the draft system in mind we believe that to lose on sunday will be the actual true win. See we're barracking for the club to win too, it's just we have a different idea about what needs to take place on sunday for us to get the actual real win (as opposed to getting the 4 points which I believe is meaningless in this situation).

No one is arguing that the benefits of losing this week outweigh winning! Its the supporters whove been on the tanking bandwagon for weeks now that need to take a long hard look at themselves. I cant be bothered going back through threads but I suspect you are one of them.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

And irrespective of your views on wanting the draft pick or not, it was just a dumb, dumb thing for Kouta to come out and say publicly, as all it has done is add fuel to the "tanking" accusations - both in the general football world and for the mindless Carlton-hating and Carlton-obsessed trolls (without naming names ) here on BigFooty.

While I don't disrespect Kouta, I have no idea why Carlton identities have openly supported losing. There is nothing to be gained. If anything, even if we lost genuinely, nobody would believe it and the AFL would be forced to look at it. Pro-tankers could just sit back, stay silent and privately hope for the loss. Ex-players could tell the club they hope to lose so the club know they are backed. Promoting it in the media and writing about it on message boards is of no benefit to the club whatsoever.

Still nobody has offered up one single valid reason for publicly promoting the idea. I suspect nobody will.

 

[HBF]

Whilst I would love to have Kreuzer at Carlton, I cannot wait until Sunday is over and done with, so we don't have to keep hearing about us losing, and barracking for our club to lose.

 

[Deej]

While I don't disrespect Kouta, I have no idea why Carlton identities have openly supported losing. There is nothing to be gained. If anything, even if we lost genuinely, nobody would believe it and the AFL would be forced to look at it. Pro-tankers could just sit back, stay silent and privately hope for the loss. Ex-players could tell the club they hope to lose so the club know they are backed. Promoting it in the media and writing about it on message boards is of no benefit to the club whatsoever.

Still nobody has offered up one single valid reason for publicly promoting the idea. I suspect nobody will.

I think it's a pretty complicated issue personally and goes back a long way, and not just to 2002 when we lost the picks. I think it goes way back to the late 60's and 70's when the culture and mindset of winning was established at Carlton. This type of arrogance was our achilles heel in dealing with the draft system and all the built up frustrations throughout everything everyone has been through over the last 30yrs or so contributes to what you see happening now.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think it's a pretty complicated issue personally and goes back a long way, and not just to 2002 when we lost the picks. I think it goes way back to the late 60's and 70's when the culture and mindset of winning was established at Carlton. This type of arrogance was our achilles heel in dealing with the draft system and all the built up frustrations throughout everything everyone has been through over the last 30yrs or so contributes to what you see happening now.

So you are saying publicly embracing tanking is our way of accepting the draft system and removing old school arrogance? Like therapy ... letting everyone know we are no longer the same Carlton?

I'm sorry ... I am struggling with the concept.

Tank if we must but why drag our name through the mud while doing so?

 

[Deej]

To lose is to win this weekend, and i think it's the win at all costs mentality combined with a bit of stick it up the AFL is what is driving some of it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

To lose is to win this weekend, and i think it's the win at all costs mentality combined with a bit of stick it up the AFL is what is driving some of it.

So, you think we are deliberately trying to let the AFL know we are using their system? Dangerous I would have thought.

 

[Deej]

I dont know if it's tanking in the way people think tanking works, as in deliberately engineering to lose. Wouldn't comment on that. I was just giving my theory as to why so many carlton people want to lose and why so many are prepared to go on record as thinking that way.

 

[bmaurizio]

A win on Sunday would be a huge step backwards.
Bitter situation in a frustrating footy season admittedly , but one should be realistic and think long term development.

 

[parrot]

Kouta: get draft pick


BAM!

An amazing article. It's pretty obvious what the Clubs desire is. We need to be careful not to make it too obvious though.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I dont know if it's tanking in the way people think tanking works, as in deliberately engineering to lose. Wouldn't comment on that. I was just giving my theory as to why so many carlton people want to lose and why so many are prepared to go on record as thinking that way.

Thanks. While it doesn't really justify the public nature of it, it is the first time someone has attempted to answer it.

Cheers

 

[Blues_Man]

Perhaps I just dont like your attitude?

Meh... you tankers are going to win the arguement and the club is possibly going to get the #1 draft pick and I am sure that there are going plenty of sticky trousers come the end of the match.

Personally I feel that manipulating the team and the way they play is a form of cheating.

Perhaps I am to honest and fair to be associated with the club any more if thats the case.

You've stated your stance in many a thread ..and belittled anyone who had a differing opinion..now former greats of the club are opposed to your ideals .so the question still stands ..are you going to denigrate these greats of the Carlton footy club because they are much more smarter than you and KNOW what our club needs ??
You are like a spoilt child who knows they are dead wrong but just can't admit it .

 

[Blues_Man]

No one is arguing that the benefits of losing this week outweigh winning! Its the supporters whove been on the tanking bandwagon for weeks now that need to take a long hard look at themselves. I cant be bothered going back through threads but I suspect you are one of them.

Now now ..you can't have it both ways ..either you want the draft picks or you want the win...it's like claiming you only a little bit gay .
It's all or nothing.

 

[Astro_]

An amazing article. It's pretty obvious what the Clubs desire is. We need to be careful not to make it too obvious though.

Because its not obvious already?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Now now ..you can't have it both ways ..either you want the draft picks or you want the win...it's like claiming you only a little bit gay .
It's all or nothing.

I have a philosophy that what happens is out of my control so what will be will be. I also disagree with the public nature of this issue and Carlton supporters and identities being so open about it.

Does this mean I am asexual but just don't like talking about it?

 

[one_twelve112]

Disgraceful..........I cannot believe the comments that were made.

 

[Blues_Man]

I have a philosophy that what happens is out of my control so what will be will be. I also disagree with the public nature of this issue and Carlton supporters and identities being so open about it.

Does this mean I am asexual but just don't like talking about it?

So do you want carlton to win this weekend or not ??

and please answer honestly ..not just what you think you should say

 

[one_twelve112]

So do you want carlton to win this weekend or not ??

and please answer honestly ..not just what you think you should say

I want the Blues to lose....I can admit that. There are probably plenty of people at the club who want them to lose too. But for Kouta to come out and fuel the tanking fire is absolutely ridiculous. Talk about damaging the brand of the club.......We are actually starting to look like we are throwing games and we will have to put up with the same shit in 2 years as we did when the salary cap breaches came to light.

 

[Scruff83]

Now now ..you can't have it both ways ..either you want the draft picks or you want the win...it's like claiming you only a little bit gay .
It's all or nothing.

All I said was its clear that we have more to gain from losing this week. Up until about half time last week I wholeheartely believed we had more to gain from winning. Obviously a win against an undermanned Melbourne this weekend will do bugger all for the confidence. If you read my post properly you'd see my issue is with people praying for losses weeks out from the end of the season. Its pathetic and if we all start thinking like that we're gonna create one hell of a losing culture. Are the pro-tankers gonna do the same thing next year if we only have 4 wins on the board after round 14?

I can totally understand why people wouldnt wanna win this weekend. I really dont care one way or the other. Building a successfull club isnt all about getting the best kids in the draft. You can have all the talent in the world but if you dont have an enviroment that encourages success you wont get anywhere. By the same token you can have minimal talent and still get alone way on determination alone, ala Kangaroos.

 

[Deej]

Blame the system not the club.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Don't hate the player ... hate the game