Kreuzer development, serious question?

[jonoman89]

He's out of sorts. If Henderson and Waite are back for the Port game I'd give Kreuzer a rest.

 

[Big Red is back]

He's out of sorts. If Henderson and Waite are back for the Port game I'd give Kreuzer a rest.

206 and hammer have him covered at the moment but really positive today and agreed if knee sore give him a rest.

 

[Stamos]

Thought he was good today. Reckon it really helped him having Warnock giving him a chop out.

 

[Faz 2000]

It is OK if I admit to having mixed feelings about Kreuzer? And it's got naught to do with HIM, but in Carlton's decision to select him. I can't shake the feeling that ruckmen are a commodity. There aren't many taken in the first round of the draft, and those that are don't tend to turn out much/any better than those that come from other sources.

The recent premiership rucks:
Ottens - OK, first rounder, talented from the start... but won Cups at his second club.
Jolly - rookie, won Cups at his second and third club after doing very little at Melbourne.
Renouf - WTF

Other dominant/impressive/effective/notable rucks in the game right now:
Cox - rookie list
Sandilands - rookie list
Mumford - rookie list, second club
Jacobs - rookie list, second club
Minson - pick 27, routinely lambasted as being crap until this year
Maric - pick 40, second club
Bellchambers - pre-season draft

I'm not saying these guys are all better than Kreuzer (or Warnock, or Hampson), or that some aren't just in the middle of a 10-game purple patch in an otherwise iffy career. BUT.... when you have a #1 pick you must make it count. It needs to be a difference-maker. Especially when it seems you can (often) source an effective ruck for minimal outlay. So here's where I admit to not loving the decision to draft Kreuzer:

1. How good does Kreuzer need to be as a ruckman to justify taking him at #1?
2. How much better would we look (seriously) if we had Jacobs as #1 ruck and Trent Cotchin in our midfield?
3. If ruckmen take 3-5 years longer than midfielders to hit their straps, and even if Kreuzer's peak is as high or higher than anyone's from his draft, don't we still lose out over the course of their careers compared to drafting an A-grade mid? Ie. All those (these, right now) years of development and potential vs actual delivery?
4. At 200cm and 101kg, what sort of ruckmen is he? He's not overly big (Sandilands style), overly strong (Mumford style), overly athletic (Naitanui style) or a bonafide forward option (Ottens style).

I love Kreuzer. The guy is talented, seems a great bloke, is loyal to the club, tries his guts out. All of those things are good, and I'll cheer him on for his entire career. I might be impatient or blinkered, and he may become an unstoppable superstar and I'll have egg all over my face. I hope that happens! I WANT him to succeed.

BUT... is it going to happen? He's a good player. I am sure he'll improve. But is he going to become something really special? Is he going to become something the opposition genuinely worries about? If so, what does it look like? Because splitting the hitouts 50-50, getting 11 touches and taking 2-3 marks (1 contested) does not feel like having a massive influence on games to me. When and how will he develop into a weapon?

On the ruck thing in general.... looking ahead to the next generation (cos Kreuzer is here on the list, now, what's done is done)... I would not bother with a ruckman in the first round. KPFs yes. KPDs yes. Midfielders yes. Ruckmen and small forwards... no.

 

[The Grover]

It is OK if I admit to having mixed feelings about Kreuzer? And it's got naught to do with HIM, but in Carlton's decision to select him. I can't shake the feeling that ruckmen are a commodity. There aren't many taken in the first round of the draft, and those that are don't tend to turn out much/any better than those that come from other sources.

The recent premiership rucks:
Ottens - OK, first rounder, talented from the start... but won Cups at his second club.
Jolly - rookie, won Cups at his second and third club after doing very little at Melbourne.
Renouf - WTF

Other dominant/impressive/effective/notable rucks in the game right now:
Cox - rookie list
Sandilands - rookie list
Mumford - rookie list, second club
Jacobs - rookie list, second club
Minson - pick 27, routinely lambasted as being crap until this year
Maric - pick 40, second club
Bellchambers - pre-season draft

I'm not saying these guys are all better than Kreuzer (or Warnock, or Hampson), or that some aren't just in the middle of a 10-game purple patch in an otherwise iffy career. BUT.... when you have a #1 pick you must make it count. It needs to be a difference-maker. Especially when it seems you can (often) source an effective ruck for minimal outlay. So here's where I admit to not loving the decision to draft Kreuzer:

1. How good does Kreuzer need to be as a ruckman to justify taking him at #1?
2. How much better would we look (seriously) if we had Jacobs as #1 ruck and Trent Cotchin in our midfield?
3. If ruckmen take 3-5 years longer than midfielders to hit their straps, and even if Kreuzer's peak is as high or higher than anyone's from his draft, don't we still lose out over the course of their careers compared to drafting an A-grade mid? Ie. All those (these, right now) years of development and potential vs actual delivery?
4. At 200cm and 101kg, what sort of ruckmen is he? He's not overly big (Sandilands style), overly strong (Mumford style), overly athletic (Naitanui style) or a bonafide forward option (Ottens style).

I love Kreuzer. The guy is talented, seems a great bloke, is loyal to the club, tries his guts out. All of those things are good, and I'll cheer him on for his entire career. I might be impatient or blinkered, and he may become an unstoppable superstar and I'll have egg all over my face. I hope that happens! I WANT him to succeed.

BUT... is it going to happen? He's a good player. I am sure he'll improve. But is he going to become something really special? Is he going to become something the opposition genuinely worries about? If so, what does it look like? Because splitting the hitouts 50-50, getting 11 touches and taking 2-3 marks (1 contested) does not feel like having a massive influence on games to me. When and how will he develop into a weapon?

On the ruck thing in general.... looking ahead to the next generation (cos Kreuzer is here on the list, now, what's done is done)... I would not bother with a ruckman in the first round. KPFs yes. KPDs yes. Midfielders yes. Ruckmen and small forwards... no.

good post looking at all angles.

I agree he shouldn't have been taken at no.1

I didn't have an opinion at draft time so I'm not trying to vindicate anything I said at the time.

He is an undersized ruckmen, & not good enough to play key forward.

We have been burnt in a way by the 3 interchange + 1 sub.

4 interchange & you play our 3 rucks every single match.

And I guess we didn't know Gibbs wasn't going to be a midfielder.

 

[Silvagnis]

Meh. Richmond and nearly every club would have had Kreuzer ranked at one or two. Footy fans are gold fish who need to stop beating players to death with their expectations. We heard similar logic about Kennedy not being worth pick four. And now he's the 200 game forward that everyone would build a list around after finishing list

Rucks/forwards who were top 20 picks without F/S picks

Meesen, Wood, Pattison, Willits, Ryder, Bailey, Leuenberger, Hampson, Kreuzer, McEvoy, Lobbe, Naitanui, Vickery, Cordy, Gorringe and Longer.

Clubs want rucks in the first round. They're worth their weight in gold and something you can't live without.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Meh. Richmond and nearly every club would have had Kreuzer ranked at one.

Not so. I remember well discussions on this board where expert draft watchers couldn't separate he and Cotchin.

I'm happy with our choice, but Special has to get his body right, and looks like he's playing injured right now.

For the first few years Cotchin was perennially injured and Kreuzer looked the blessed choice. Now their situations are reversed.

My tip - they'll both be champions.

 

[Silvagnis]

Not so. I remember well discussions on this board where expert draft watchers couldn't separate he and Cotchin.

I'm happy with our choice, but Special has to get his body right, and looks like he's playing injured right now.

For the first few years Cotchin was perennially injured and Kreuzer looked the blessed choice. Now their situations are reversed.

My tip - they'll both be champions.

I meant to post at one or two to say that clubs want rucks. Thought the Tigers wanted Cotchin, but a Richmond supporter said that they wanted Kreuzer. Rendell had Kreuzer at one.

 

[T2B_]

I think when Kreuzer gets his body fully sorted and gets going at 100% there will be a lot of egg on faces.

 

[Faz 2000]

I think when Kreuzer gets his body fully sorted and gets going at 100% there will be a lot of egg on faces.

I hope so.

 

[Sector 7G]

I meant to post at one or two to say that clubs want rucks. Thought the Tigers wanted Cotchin, but a Richmond supporter said that they wanted Kreuzer. Rendell had Kreuzer at one.

I certainly don't remember going to watch the Cotchin Cup against Melbourne.

Cotchin and Kreuzer play together in the same side U18 and Kreuzer won the Morrish Medal.

You have to wonder whether Richmond said they would have taken Cotchin at No1 as that they were never going to get the chance to take Kreuzer.

 

[The Toad]

Cockchin stands out because he's surrounded by shit, Kreuzer is sorrounded by superstars and still stands out.

Know which one i want.

P.S Cockchin is still a quality player but

 

[Kramer1]

It is OK if I admit to having mixed feelings about Kreuzer? And it's got naught to do with HIM, but in Carlton's decision to select him. I can't shake the feeling that ruckmen are a commodity. There aren't many taken in the first round of the draft, and those that are don't tend to turn out much/any better than those that come from other sources.

The recent premiership rucks:
Ottens - OK, first rounder, talented from the start... but won Cups at his second club.
Jolly - rookie, won Cups at his second and third club after doing very little at Melbourne.
Renouf - WTF

Other dominant/impressive/effective/notable rucks in the game right now:
Cox - rookie list
Sandilands - rookie list
Mumford - rookie list, second club
Jacobs - rookie list, second club
Minson - pick 27, routinely lambasted as being crap until this year
Maric - pick 40, second club
Bellchambers - pre-season draft

I'm not saying these guys are all better than Kreuzer (or Warnock, or Hampson), or that some aren't just in the middle of a 10-game purple patch in an otherwise iffy career. BUT.... when you have a #1 pick you must make it count. It needs to be a difference-maker. Especially when it seems you can (often) source an effective ruck for minimal outlay. So here's where I admit to not loving the decision to draft Kreuzer:

1. How good does Kreuzer need to be as a ruckman to justify taking him at #1?
2. How much better would we look (seriously) if we had Jacobs as #1 ruck and Trent Cotchin in our midfield?
3. If ruckmen take 3-5 years longer than midfielders to hit their straps, and even if Kreuzer's peak is as high or higher than anyone's from his draft, don't we still lose out over the course of their careers compared to drafting an A-grade mid? Ie. All those (these, right now) years of development and potential vs actual delivery?
4. At 200cm and 101kg, what sort of ruckmen is he? He's not overly big (Sandilands style), overly strong (Mumford style), overly athletic (Naitanui style) or a bonafide forward option (Ottens style).

I love Kreuzer. The guy is talented, seems a great bloke, is loyal to the club, tries his guts out. All of those things are good, and I'll cheer him on for his entire career. I might be impatient or blinkered, and he may become an unstoppable superstar and I'll have egg all over my face. I hope that happens! I WANT him to succeed.

BUT... is it going to happen? He's a good player. I am sure he'll improve. But is he going to become something really special? Is he going to become something the opposition genuinely worries about? If so, what does it look like? Because splitting the hitouts 50-50, getting 11 touches and taking 2-3 marks (1 contested) does not feel like having a massive influence on games to me. When and how will he develop into a weapon?

On the ruck thing in general.... looking ahead to the next generation (cos Kreuzer is here on the list, now, what's done is done)... I would not bother with a ruckman in the first round. KPFs yes. KPDs yes. Midfielders yes. Ruckmen and small forwards... no.

Reasonably reasonable as per usual Faz.

If we were talking about Josh Fraser I think we would have grounds for a mental health group action against CFC. In this instance I think the focus needs to be on return rather than opportunity cost. If a team was guaranteed the career of a Cox or a Sandilands with pick one I don't think too many would baulk...hopefully Kreuzer is keeps this sort of company come careers end.

As comparisons go we probably have to take the focus off 'pick 1' and think more in terms of ruckmen taken early...Leunberger, McEvoy etc. I apologise to all for stirring up this memory but at the time we had Cameron Cloke staring down the opposition ruckman at the centre bounce...the need to secure a quality young career ruckman was huge, and junior ruckman aren't rated much higher than a young M Kreuzer in 2007.

 

[Weiterbot23]

Have to agree with Faz2000.

With the benifit of hindsight we would be looking very good with Jacobs, Warnock and Hamma as our rucks and Cotchin in the midfield with Murph and Judd (or even Dangerfield and Josh Kennedy ), but who was to know hamma would be servicable, Warnock would be availible and Jacobs would come on like he did.

But Kreuzer isn't and won't be a dissapointment. Every team has made mistakes/passed over players. IMO we should continue to draft the best availible talent with picks 1-40 and fill holes with mature age recruits or recycled players with later picks, rookie draft.

NO MORE TRADING PICKS FOR PLAYERS!

Good drafting = sustained success!

 

[Big Red is back]

It is OK if I admit to having mixed feelings about Kreuzer? And it's got naught to do with HIM, but in Carlton's decision to select him. I can't shake the feeling that ruckmen are a commodity. There aren't many taken in the first round of the draft, and those that are don't tend to turn out much/any better than those that come from other sources.

The recent premiership rucks:
Ottens - OK, first rounder, talented from the start... but won Cups at his second club.
Jolly - rookie, won Cups at his second and third club after doing very little at Melbourne.
Renouf - WTF

Other dominant/impressive/effective/notable rucks in the game right now:
Cox - rookie list
Sandilands - rookie list
Mumford - rookie list, second club
Jacobs - rookie list, second club
Minson - pick 27, routinely lambasted as being crap until this year
Maric - pick 40, second club
Bellchambers - pre-season draft

I'm not saying these guys are all better than Kreuzer (or Warnock, or Hampson), or that some aren't just in the middle of a 10-game purple patch in an otherwise iffy career. BUT.... when you have a #1 pick you must make it count. It needs to be a difference-maker. Especially when it seems you can (often) source an effective ruck for minimal outlay. So here's where I admit to not loving the decision to draft Kreuzer:

1. How good does Kreuzer need to be as a ruckman to justify taking him at #1?
2. How much better would we look (seriously) if we had Jacobs as #1 ruck and Trent Cotchin in our midfield?
3. If ruckmen take 3-5 years longer than midfielders to hit their straps, and even if Kreuzer's peak is as high or higher than anyone's from his draft, don't we still lose out over the course of their careers compared to drafting an A-grade mid? Ie. All those (these, right now) years of development and potential vs actual delivery?
4. At 200cm and 101kg, what sort of ruckmen is he? He's not overly big (Sandilands style), overly strong (Mumford style), overly athletic (Naitanui style) or a bonafide forward option (Ottens style).

I love Kreuzer. The guy is talented, seems a great bloke, is loyal to the club, tries his guts out. All of those things are good, and I'll cheer him on for his entire career. I might be impatient or blinkered, and he may become an unstoppable superstar and I'll have egg all over my face. I hope that happens! I WANT him to succeed.

BUT... is it going to happen? He's a good player. I am sure he'll improve. But is he going to become something really special? Is he going to become something the opposition genuinely worries about? If so, what does it look like? Because splitting the hitouts 50-50, getting 11 touches and taking 2-3 marks (1 contested) does not feel like having a massive influence on games to me. When and how will he develop into a weapon?

On the ruck thing in general.... looking ahead to the next generation (cos Kreuzer is here on the list, now, what's done is done)... I would not bother with a ruckman in the first round. KPFs yes. KPDs yes. Midfielders yes. Ruckmen and small forwards... no.

High quality post.

I cannot disagree with anything in this.

The heart of the issue really is should you use pick 1 on a ruckman given we all agree they take longer to develop and they seem to be relatively easy to pick up once nearing premership window anyway.

Examples including Cats - Ottens, Pies - Jolly & Swans - Jolly.

 

[Erko Blue]

NO MORE TRADING PICKS FOR PLAYERS!

Good drafting = sustained success!

No good recruiting team would use such a finite rule forever, there has to be a balance between the two.
There are so many variables that this concept seems amateurish.

Anyway, love is blind.
I still believe in the next few years, with more maturity, Kreuzer will be one of the best, fear-inducing big men ever to play.

 

[entourage]

Cox didn't have a really good season until 2004, when he was about 23-24.
Kreuzer matched Cox the most part in 2009, when he was just 19, in terms of statistics. This is Kreuzers' first (fingers crossed) full season since that year, and I expect those numbers to improve.

I understand people asking questions because it can be frustrating waiting for it to happen, but it will-you must be patient with ruckman, there is simply no other way. I get the feeling the wait will be more than worth it.

 

[Silvagnis]

[YOUTUBE]hgukduYJZ44[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]vLanU5i0Clo[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]LXRcAUKCP3s[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]XozmZTRzijc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]6MUc6hXYBSM[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]1GWEJdRI7yk[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]pht_GDEZKMM[/YOUTUBE]

Videos beat hindsight and the rhetoric about how easy it is to get big men.

 

[Kades_Dad]

What rubbish. Malthouse would of selected Kruezer in a heartbeat. Kruezer is a KPP who has played one less season than Cotchin. We selected the right player.

 

[Big Sim]

Cox didn't have a really good season until 2004, when he was about 23-24.
Kreuzer matched Cox the most part in 2009, when he was just 19, in terms of statistics. This is Kreuzers' first (fingers crossed) full season since that year, and I expect those numbers to improve.

I understand people asking questions because it can be frustrating waiting for it to happen, but it will-you must be patient with ruckman, there is simply no other way. I get the feeling the wait will be more than worth it.

Most sensible post and from a Pies man!

Kreuzer is going along nicely, you simply cannot compare the development of a 200cm man child with a nugget like Cotchin. Matty's best is already awe inspiring and we can fairly safely assume that at about 25 his best will be better than that. At the moment there is a gap between his best and his ordinary but he is developing and that is what developing means.

I think he will equal or better Cox.

 

[walking star]

kreuzer is a star! You can see in that pies youtube clip he is moving a little better then he is atm, maybe a little niggle.

He is still doing very well so far this year just a bit more consistency in ruck contest and contested marking and he will just about be the best ruck in the AFL. Think the team could kick to him a bit smarter in the forward line, one of gibbs passes on the weekend was borderline ******ed

 

[Tanks_Alot]

There is absolutely no point comparing Kreuzer to Cotchin they're two completely different players. We drafted Kreuzer at a time where we had Sam Jacobs still in development along with Hampson and no Warnock.

He was the star upcoming kid and for a tall to be that impressive there was no way we were going to pass him up.

He's had a whole year on the sidelines so really he's only been playing for 3 and a half years. It is common knowledge that tall players take longer to develop in the AFL than the midfielders.

Still Kreuzer has had a fair impact on many games in his short career so far. He is not a KPF, playing him there in the hope of him kicking bags every week, I just don't see that happening. He needs to play as a ruck and rest forward. He has great endurance for a guy his size and never gives up at the contest so there shouldn't be anybody having a go at him, he's trying his guts outs.

I have a feeling that when he does develop some form and consistency, he will be very hard to stop.

 

[Kramer1]

The real question here is what if Kreuzer slipped to Richmond...then the next year they don't burn a pick on Vickery as they have a great young ruck and go with a Ziebell or Sidebottom...and maybe this somehow influences them not to burn another pick on Conca and they go with Caddy or Heppel.

Kreuzer, Sidebottom, Caddy sounds more threatening than Cotchin, Vickery, Conca...even with Cotchin now having a pre-season under his belt. By taking Kreuzer we have in fact inflicted many more years of misery on the Richmond supporter group...I have just made my own day.

 

[Artie Bucco]

Kreuzer will be fine, he needs a rest soon though

 

[blueboy25]

Kreuzer will be fine, he needs a rest soon though

Watching him live when we played freo at subi I noticed a few times he was signaling to Hammer to have a run on the ball but Hammer either didn't see him or ignored him and Kruezer just kept battling away.

I don't think he is type to complain and just soldiers on the way that he plays which is his 2nd, 3rd and 4th efforts eventually takes its toll on your body and like you said he needs a rest soon.

Maybe having Warnock in the side will give his body a rest while still allowing him to play.