Kreuzer development, serious question?

[Big Red is back]

Before I pose the question let me state. He is by far my favorite of our number one draft picks, and his heart is something I wish every player on our list had.

The issue I have is cfc developing him as quickly as expected, and yes he did his knee but he has been back playing for 12 months now.

A quick look at his stats notes:

In 2009 he was averaging 13.9 disposals per game compared to 12.2, 11.7, 12and 12.1 respectively during 2010, 2011 and 2012 As noted during 2011 he was coming back from a knee injury so we must be forgiving. However what is most interesting is the significant reduction in 2010 prior to his knee injury of just 11.7 stats per game.

So the question is what do we do to accelerate his development?

The reason I raise this is simply at the completion of 2009 it was looking like the boy was charging towards stardom, and given we know his attitude is top notch, something must be going wrong in his development or game day instructions.

Personally I expect him to be averaging atleast 18 stats per game by now which isn't huge, and yes stats aren't everything, but gee heading towards dean cox type numbers wouldn't hurt.

I think his issue is he doesn't know how to spread, he is great in close but given his mobility he should be bursting away from slower lumbering rucks and slaughtering them on the spread.

It may well be time to play him as a ruck rover to teach him how to spread.

Interested to hear other ideas as to what we can do to see him move from promising average ruck to the elite player which at 23 he should be moving towards.

This thread is equally relevant to the Gibbs one IMO and I see a sudden improvement in Kruz as a key to our 2012 premership hopes.

 

[Blue and Silver]

You want Dean Cox numbers out of a fourth year ruckman whose already had a knee reco?

Rucks always take a while to develop, the knee put him back 12 months in that devlopment. I love Kreuzer and you can't question his application. His problem seems to be that he tires a bit quickly and doesn't win as many hitouts as we'd like. The cardio problem will resolve itself with another pre-season, the hitouts is a case whether we want him as first ruck or not, given he has split ruck duties with Hammer all year.

 

[Big Red is back]

You want Dean Cox numbers out of a fourth year ruckman whose already had a knee reco?

Rucks always take a while to develop, the knee put him back 12 months in that devlopment. I love Kreuzer and you can't question his application. His problem seems to be that he tires a bit quickly and doesn't win as many hitouts as we'd like. The cardio problem will resolve itself with another pre-season, the hitouts is a case whether we want him as first ruck or not, given he has split ruck duties with Hammer all year.

Not saying I expect Dean Cox numbers but I would like to see him heading in that direction.

The key issue is in 2009 he was at 13.9 stats per game as a second year ruckman and even prior to his knee injury he was going backwards in terms of stats.

I think you raise an important observation that maybe he does have a fitness issue in that he may not be endurance ready yet. Which probably explains his lack of easy ball on the spread. Nevertheless one would of thought his 2012 enduranace would be better than in 2009?

 

[gbatman]

he's going ok, just like to see more marks but for where he is at he's going ok and isn't a real concerne. He needs to find ways of getting the ball other than winning it at ground level. He's started to link up a bit which is a new string to his bow, but I'd really like to see him on the end of more kicks and holding more marks and getting out in space more in the midfield and playing more like a big man. He's got a hell of a lot to work on with his technique for when the ball is sat on his head.

 

[goreds]

Our game plan is not built for ruckman if they can't catch it...

This is Kreuzer's only real issue, if he catches it, his his game will be complete...

As gbatman has said, his marking when the ball is dropped on his head needs some major work...

I think there might be a specialist coaching issue and I think Kreuzer might benefit from a change in that area...

 

[Lance Uppercut]

despite being an awesome one, he's still a young ruckman. He will take time and will probably take a few years, even despite his undisputed talent.

I have no doubt he'll be a gun in 2-3 years time. Just have patience

 

[Silvagnis]

Big Red Is Back is my favourite poster.

Knee, then jerk.

Kreuzer doesn't look right to me. Even if he's sore, he only knows one way to play. At 110%. He could have taken it easy against the Giants, but he still went for the ball at top speed and destroyed that unit Tim Mohr with a bone shattering bump. Love him.

 

[Stamos]

Reckon he needed the week off that he was meant to have against GWS. He was good before that.

 

[audas]

During the Adelaide game, late in the last - cant remember the specifics Im blocking a lot of things out at the moment, Kruzer was in a contest for the ball - running towards a bouncing lose ball with his opponent close on him.

Instead of trying to collect the ball, stop it, trap it etc - he just stuck his foot out - it went straight past him and I believe resulted in a goal.

What struck me most was the commentators - they audibly sucked in air and "TSK' ED !", if that's a word, they went silent and all you could hear was - "oh gee", nothing was said, it just went silent, they couldn't believe what they had seen, and appeared to feel so sorry for him at how bad it was they just left it alone - what was odd was they then said "anyway" a few seconds later and continued on with the game.

Im not sold on Kruzer at all - he runs a lot, and has the odd good game which people tend to blow out of all proportions, and then returns to being a plodder who is sucking massive amounts of wind - heaving at every step, absolutely plodding, who can't really mark.


Hammer has been much better performing up forward and is better in the Ruck, Warnock has easily been better in the ruck. While Kruze has on the very on the very odd occassion ok around the ground, but for the most part plodded, sucked wind and struggled massively.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Still sorting his correct body weight Vs muscle Vs endurance etc.
In other words still a colt, put back by the knee reco.
Injuries permitting will be a top 3 ruckman in the league for the next 8 to 10 years, with potential to be THE top big man in the game

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

During the Adelaide game, late in the last - cant remember the specifics Im blocking a lot of things out at the moment, Kruzer was in a contest for the ball - running towards a bouncing lose ball with his opponent close on him.

Instead of trying to collect the ball, stop it, trap it etc - he just stuck his foot out - it went straight past him and I believe resulted in a goal.

What struck me most was the commentators - they audibly sucked in air and "TSK' ED !", if that's a word, they went silent and all you could hear was - "oh gee", nothing was said, it just went silent, they couldn't believe what they had seen, and appeared to feel so sorry for him at how bad it was they just left it alone - what was odd was they then said "anyway" a few seconds later and continued on with the game.


Im not sold on Kruzer at all - he runs a lot, and has the odd good game which people tend to blow out of all proportions, and then returns to being a plodder who is sucking massive amounts of wind - heaving at every step, absolutely plodding, who can't really mark.


Hammer has been much better performing up forward and is better in the Ruck, Warnock has easily been better in the ruck. While Kruze has on the very on the very odd occassion ok around the ground, but for the most part plodded, sucked wind and struggled massively.

FMD

 

[Jeremias]

During the Adelaide game, late in the last - cant remember the specifics Im blocking a lot of things out at the moment, Kruzer was in a contest for the ball - running towards a bouncing lose ball with his opponent close on him.

Instead of trying to collect the ball, stop it, trap it etc - he just stuck his foot out - it went straight past him and I believe resulted in a goal.

What struck me most was the commentators - they audibly sucked in air and "TSK' ED !", if that's a word, they went silent and all you could hear was - "oh gee", nothing was said, it just went silent, they couldn't believe what they had seen, and appeared to feel so sorry for him at how bad it was they just left it alone - what was odd was they then said "anyway" a few seconds later and continued on with the game.

Im not sold on Kruzer at all - he runs a lot, and has the odd good game which people tend to blow out of all proportions, and then returns to being a plodder who is sucking massive amounts of wind - heaving at every step, absolutely plodding, who can't really mark.


Hammer has been much better performing up forward and is better in the Ruck, Warnock has easily been better in the ruck. While Kruze has on the very on the very odd occassion ok around the ground, but for the most part plodded, sucked wind and struggled massively.

If I wasn't convinced in years gone, I certainly am now.

You've officially lost the plot.

 

[rampar]

Needs a rest, why else would they have tried to rest him against GWS?

However... I think he needs to be more aggressive at those bodies crowding his space. He had a few chances against Adelaide to really stamp his mark on the game, make the opposition earn the ball and put a little fear into those who dare crowd his space. I don't care if he gives away the odd free or even the odd suspension. Needs more mongrel Whole organisation needs more mongrel.

 

[thylacine60]

During the Adelaide game, late in the last - cant remember the specifics Im blocking a lot of things out at the moment, Kruzer was in a contest for the ball - running towards a bouncing lose ball with his opponent close on him.

Instead of trying to collect the ball, stop it, trap it etc - he just stuck his foot out - it went straight past him and I believe resulted in a goal.

What struck me most was the commentators - they audibly sucked in air and "TSK' ED !", if that's a word, they went silent and all you could hear was - "oh gee", nothing was said, it just went silent, they couldn't believe what they had seen, and appeared to feel so sorry for him at how bad it was they just left it alone - what was odd was they then said "anyway" a few seconds later and continued on with the game.

Im not sold on Kruzer at all - he runs a lot, and has the odd good game which people tend to blow out of all proportions, and then returns to being a plodder who is sucking massive amounts of wind - heaving at every step, absolutely plodding, who can't really mark.


Hammer has been much better performing up forward and is better in the Ruck, Warnock has easily been better in the ruck. While Kruze has on the very on the very odd occassion ok around the ground, but for the most part plodded, sucked wind and struggled massively.

Audas, what credibility you had left is heading south at a million miles an hour.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Not saying I expect Dean Cox numbers but I would like to see him heading in that direction.

The key issue is in 2009 he was at 13.9 stats per game as a second year ruckman and even prior to his knee injury he was going backwards in terms of stats.

I think you raise an important observation that maybe he does have a fitness issue in that he may not be endurance ready yet. Which probably explains his lack of easy ball on the spread. Nevertheless one would of thought his 2012 enduranace would be better than in 2009?

Had a restricted pre-season and was in the recovery group with Waite for much of the summer.

Both came out firing then fell away. I reckon its a fitness thing

 

[Blue and Silver]

During the Adelaide game, late in the last - cant remember the specifics Im blocking a lot of things out at the moment, Kruzer was in a contest for the ball - running towards a bouncing lose ball with his opponent close on him.

Instead of trying to collect the ball, stop it, trap it etc - he just stuck his foot out - it went straight past him and I believe resulted in a goal.

What struck me most was the commentators - they audibly sucked in air and "TSK' ED !", if that's a word, they went silent and all you could hear was - "oh gee", nothing was said, it just went silent, they couldn't believe what they had seen, and appeared to feel so sorry for him at how bad it was they just left it alone - what was odd was they then said "anyway" a few seconds later and continued on with the game.

Im not sold on Kruzer at all - he runs a lot, and has the odd good game which people tend to blow out of all proportions, and then returns to being a plodder who is sucking massive amounts of wind - heaving at every step, absolutely plodding, who can't really mark.


Hammer has been much better performing up forward and is better in the Ruck, Warnock has easily been better in the ruck. While Kruze has on the very on the very odd occassion ok around the ground, but for the most part plodded, sucked wind and struggled massively.

It's already been said but...wow.

As I said before, reckon it's a fitness thing, but jeez are you having a crack at him for not trying hard enough?

 

[teknodeejay]

I reckon he's not 100% fit or healthy... maybe his knee giving him a little trouble.

Can't question his endeavour though. Tipping he will have a much better 2nd half of the season.

 

[audas]

Audas, what credibility you had left is heading south at a million miles an hour.

Because he's playing so well isn't he...

And i was so wrong about us after the bombers game wasn't I....ffs. Your contributions are what ? Smug and irrelevant ?

All we ever hear, ever, is about excuses, wrong position, should be forward, is injured, is a big man takes time, there is a thread like this every other week about kruze, just as there is about Gibbs, mean while every other ruckman goes past him. BUt whooooaa anyone point out the truth, just like I did after the Essendon game, and all hell breaks loose, until about the thicker bar props amongst us finally catch on and then get shirty at those who saw the writing on the wall eons ago.

Can't mark, can't ruck, can't lead - but he has a big ticker and really tries hard and thats all that matters apparently.

 

[audas]

It's already been said but...wow.

As I said before, reckon it's a fitness thing, but jeez are you having a crack at him for not trying hard enough?

No I am saying that this is all everyone sees in him and its frustrating - the fact he tries really hard is indisputable, no doubt about it - but at the end of the day he is sucking wind badly, really badly, and ends up plodding along.

Maybe this is because he runs around after the ball too much rather than realizing he is a big man and not a midfielder - he's a god damned giant and needs to play to that role - either Ruck or forward.

Right now he is absolutely not our best ruck, that has been shown over and over again with Warnock fit. There is no question he struggles to stick marks and doesnt lead well - Hammer up until the Carlton explosion was doing really well up forward, was smashing it with 11 goals one, dobbing them on the run from out side fifty over the shoulder. The point being Hammer is a basketball convert and doing things equal to or better than Kruze - he is much, MUCH faster and clearly capable of running all day.


I really think people just see Kruzes face turning purple and think wow - he is putting in such a massive effort he is awesome.


Im not denying he has put in some great games here and there - he has - but this is just the point, these games have been as a midfielder, have been pretty rare if your being absolutely honest about it - and are not in his specialist position - what ever that is meant to be.


If someone wants to correct me and say yeah he is a much better tap rucman than warnock then ok fine (not going to happen).
If someone wants to correct me and say he is a fantastic forward and has proven himself then fine - which game / games was it ?
If someone wants to tell me he is a great inside midfielder / outside midfielder and thats what we need a galooping 200 centimeter midfielder who Brock Mclean can out run at a skip, then fine.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Not a better tap ruckman than Warnock, not a better forward than Hampson. I agree

What is he better at then?

Better disposal than both, harder at the ball, and intimidating when he does it, a good contested mark, although he isn't clunking as many as I'd like, excellent reader of the play and does all the 1%ers.

His fitness was his greatest attribute, and right now I reckon he is still short a run. He equalled Murphy in the yo-yo during the pre-season, and I think he is still short of where he could be. I'd even venture a suggestion he carries too much weight.

To me it comes down to the following, who would I want playing in a GF, Ryan Houlihan or Nick Duigan. One is skillful and creative, the other is gritty and determined. I'd take Duigan anyday, just like I think that Kreuzer would be the best ruckman we've got to take into one of those games

 

[Jeremias]

I can't have a serious discussion with someone that reckons Walker is one of the most talented players to take the field.

Or with someone that reckons we should've won 14+ games 5 or 6 years back when we were struggling to avoid the bottom 4.

Add this one to the long line of audas' comments which just make you shake your head and wonder if some lagged behind in our evolution from monkeys.

 

[Coona Blues]

Because he's playing so well isn't he...

And i was so wrong about us after the bombers game wasn't I....ffs. Your contributions are what ? Smug and irrelevant ?

All we ever hear, ever, is about excuses, wrong position, should be forward, is injured, is a big man takes time, there is a thread like this every other week about kruze, just as there is about Gibbs, mean while every other ruckman goes past him. BUt whooooaa anyone point out the truth, just like I did after the Essendon game, and all hell breaks loose, until about the thicker bar props amongst us finally catch on and then get shirty at those who saw the writing on the wall eons ago.

Can't mark, can't ruck, can't lead - but he has a big ticker and really tries hard and thats all that matters apparently.

I will offer some support here.
Like most, if not all, Blues supporters I have a very high regard for Matthew Kreuzer. But can agree with your frustration at the blinkered view so many have. I would never advocate that MK does not have a spot in our best 22, but the blind love is annoying. Whenever we are (apparently)beaten in in the ruck, Hampson cops the brunt from our supporters. Hampson is clearly a better tap ruckman than Kreuzer (borne out by the stats), as well as being well on the way to being a more potent forward. The popular view is that Warnock is the best tap ruckman of the 3, this may be a little overstated given that he is the absent one and seemingly immune from ridicule. I will not "knock" 206 either, but he has played very limited games since his relatively expensive recruitment, and his value around the ground does not match (imo) either Kreuzer or Hammer.
Kreuzer is the annointed one, he believes that he is a ruckman, I really believe Ratten and friends should be exploring options other than that of pure ruckman. The unexplored is in defence, where we are too often undersized.
I am not "anti" Warnock, but sometimes wonder at the prospects of Kreuzer patrolling the back half, Hampson out of Full Forward or a pocket and Jacobs doing the bulk of the ruckwork. That 3 ruck scenario could have worked, all are along the lines of the "modern prototype". I understand we had the need to recruit a "developed" ruckman as the other 3 were still coming, but Warnock's development and overall input has arguably been less than the other 3.
Please Ratts explore some other roles, particularly for Kreuze.

 

[Kramer1]

Before I pose the question let me state. He is by far my favorite of our number one draft picks, and his heart is something I wish every player on our list had.

The issue I have is cfc developing him as quickly as expected, and yes he did his knee but he has been back playing for 12 months now.

A quick look at his stats notes:

In 2009 he was averaging 13.9 disposals per game compared to 12.2, 11.7, 12and 12.1 respectively during 2010, 2011 and 2012 As noted during 2011 he was coming back from a knee injury so we must be forgiving. However what is most interesting is the significant reduction in 2010 prior to his knee injury of just 11.7 stats per game.

So the question is what do we do to accelerate his development?

The reason I raise this is simply at the completion of 2009 it was looking like the boy was charging towards stardom, and given we know his attitude is top notch, something must be going wrong in his development or game day instructions.

Personally I expect him to be averaging atleast 18 stats per game by now which isn't huge, and yes stats aren't everything, but gee heading towards dean cox type numbers wouldn't hurt.

I think his issue is he doesn't know how to spread, he is great in close but given his mobility he should be bursting away from slower lumbering rucks and slaughtering them on the spread.

It may well be time to play him as a ruck rover to teach him how to spread.

Interested to hear other ideas as to what we can do to see him move from promising average ruck to the elite player which at 23 he should be moving towards.

This thread is equally relevant to the Gibbs one IMO and I see a sudden improvement in Kruz as a key to our 2012 premership hopes.

Hate the internet. No one actually has to do any research any more, and opinions never need be backed up. Five minutes trawling through readily available stats and you think you have grounds for an argument...

Kreuzer is not a Cox like ruckman. Forget what is said and written, he has more in common with a Ben Hudson than he does a Dean Cox...and I'm just fine with that.

Incidentally Cox, the greatest kick chaser the game has known amongst rucks, is averaging 16 odd touches a game (four more than MK...and you want Kreuzer to be averaging 18? Why? What will 3-4 more handballs a week add to Kreuzer's game? Compare contested posessions, which is very much MK's game and you will see things tighten up a little.

Further, how was Cox going at 22? Let me tell you...11 touches, 17 hit outs and a little more than half a tackle a game.

Don't care if MK's disposal count never nudges north of 12 again. More interested to see his tackle count get back to where it was, and his clearance count and phsical impact at the stoppages continue to grow. Leave Cox to do the kick chasing. Would also be happy for him to never play more than a resting ruckmans role in the forward line again.

Should add that I think most would agree he is labouring this year, but still I have seen improvement in his ruckwork, and anecdotally seems to be holding more contested marks...its only when we plonk him forward and expect him to crush packs like J Brown that he doesn't look like getting near it.

Factor in the knee, the issue that plagued him late last year, the fact that the club piled an unatural amount of bulk on during his lay-off...I'm pretty pleased with his development all told.

 

[SBYM]

Seems to be a consensus MK is laboring and perhaps in need of a rest. I agree. Some really good form earlier this year but has dropped away, certainly not through lack of effort, would run and tackle until he dropped if you asked him to.

Makes me wonder then why the three rucks?...

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Seems to be a consensus MK is laboring and perhaps in need of a rest. I agree. Some really good form earlier this year but has dropped away, certainly not through lack of effort, would run and tackle until he dropped if you asked him to.

Makes me wonder then why the three rucks?...

Sorry, but if you are out of form you don't have a frigging rest, you play yourself back into form.

Big Number 8 hasn't played well lately, am pretty sure he will improve.