Kreuzer vs Ryder?

Who is the better footballer?

  • Kreuzer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ryder

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Big_Luch

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Ryder is a lot more brilliant but can go missing, Kreuzer will give his all every minute he is out there.

Both at their best, Ryder pretty easily, but in saying that I just about pick Kreuzer because of his attitude out on the field.

Whats the use of 'at his best' if it happens rarely and requires him to be at his most confident. Id love to see how ryder goes over a season where he has to play with hille and bellchambers and share ruck time with them. if ryder isnt playing in the ruck he kind of goes missing and looks dis-interested.
 
I question whether Ryder's ever had a match that's equal to Kreuzer's 2nd game back from a knee reco.

24 possessions, 7 tackles, 2 goals and one of the most obvious BOG performances I've seen from a ruckman. Granted he didn't get many hitouts but he absolutely destroyed Mumford in every other facet of the game.

As good as Ryder was on ANZAC Day three years ago, I'd take Kreuzer's performance against Sydney.
 
I question whether Ryder's ever had a match that's equal to Kreuzer's 2nd game back from a knee reco.

24 possessions, 7 tackles, 2 goals and one of the most obvious BOG performances I've seen from a ruckman. Granted he didn't get many hitouts but he absolutely destroyed Mumford in every other facet of the game.

As good as Ryder was on ANZAC Day three years ago, I'd take Kreuzer's performance against Sydney.

Ryder Round 1

20 disposals, 80% efficiency, 9 marks, 3 tackles, 2 clearances, 33 hit outs, 2 inside 50's, 3 Rebound 50's, 1 goal, 165 super coach points.

Against Goldstein and McIntosh.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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I question whether Ryder's ever had a match that's equal to Kreuzer's 2nd game back from a knee reco.

24 possessions, 7 tackles, 2 goals and one of the most obvious BOG performances I've seen from a ruckman. Granted he didn't get many hitouts but he absolutely destroyed Mumford in every other facet of the game.
Then you obviously didn't watch much of us last year, and you probably don't have much to contribute, do you??


In 2011, check out the Geelong win (I had him BOG), the 2nd Dogs game (clear BOG), the 1-point Sydney win, either of the first 2 weeks this year, the Adelaide win, the Collingwood thumping as a key back (16 x 1%ers - 16!!!), the WCE win as a forward, the early Sydney loss, or the Dogs thumping in round 1.

There's a start.
I don't believe Kreuzer's played more than 2 or 3 games at that standard.

All of his good games did come either in the first ~6 weeks and last ~10... he was woeful through that middle patch, but that is still a fair list of bloody excellent games.
 
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personally i reckon ive seen Ryder 'break out' a couple of times but fall back to the pack again.. i'll reserve judgement this year until i see it sustained. (but he does look as hungry and committed as ive seen him)

Kruuz hasnt really had a great run at it yet.. keeps getting stopped in his tracks by injury.

all things being equal.. and there are no injuries i reckon its hard to compare these two. IMO They are nearly opposite kinds of ruckman, i reckon you could easily play them both in the one side which possibly proves that.

Ryder seems more flashy, capable of the big flying marks, is as good forward has he is in the ruck but probably lacks around the ground. Kruuz grinds away all game, is an excellent tap ruckman and gets around the ground like another midfielder linking play. Can go forward but not as effectve as Ryder deep.. maybe better as a chf ?

I love it how people on here are now saying these 2 are both stars and any team would love to have them.. but last year opposition supporters were saying ryders trade value was zero - how opinions change after 2 games!

ill give it to ryder because his very best has been better than kreuzers best so far... but thats not to say that this year wont change that opinion.
 
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Kreuzer. Even in his bad games, at least he offers his usual attack on the ball at ground level and will fight to the death. Ryder's best is probably better but his bad games can be woeful.

Ryder would be AA ruckman at this very early stage though imo. Just ahead of Kreuzer.
 

lamaros

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Oh Lamaros, why did you bring up 2011 stats when Kruezer played like 10 games after coming back from an ACL injury? :eek:

Because it is the most recent year. What year do you want me to talk about? 2009? 2008, when Ryder was playing as a key defender?

This "Ryder is inconsistent" crap needs to stop IMO. Play Kreuzer as a key forward for 6 games in a row and see how he does. The only reason Ryder had some poorer games last season was because we played three rucks and he was forced to fit in around the other two - being the most flexible player of the three.
 
Then you obviously didn't watch much of us last year, and you probably don't have much to contribute, do you??


In 2011, check out the Geelong win (I had him BOG), the 2nd Dogs game (clear BOG), the 1-point Sydney win, either of the first 2 weeks this year, the Adelaide win, the Collingwood thumping as a key back (16 x 1%ers - 16!!!), the WCE win as a forward, the early Sydney loss, or the Dogs thumping in round 1.

There's a start.
I don't believe Kreuzer's played more than 2 or 3 games at that standard.

All of his good games did come either in the first ~6 weeks and last ~10... he was woeful through that middle patch, but that is still a fair list of bloody excellent games.

The umpires didn't see fit to have him BOG or in the top 3 in any game last year. Would love to see how he polled in your B&F in those games.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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The umpires say a lot of things, especially about taller types - FWIW he did get a BL vote in round 1; and he had twice the game of Hurley (2 votes) or Dahlhaus (1 vote) in the 2nd WB game.

He finished 9th in our B&F (bee's dick off 6th in an even year), so he was recognised by the club. He would've been competitive with the leaders, without that woeful 1/4 of the season.

It all comes back to this:
If you're not going to go back and watch those games, or look up who played well, you're simply not going to get any idea of what Ryder's capable of, and how he stacks up next to anyone... simple as that.
No-one's pissing on Kreuzer that I can see, we're just saying Ryder's work is going massively, massively under-appreciated.

Also, this - 45 out, angle, wet ball, game up for grabs:
[youtube]W_3v-3YU0M4[/youtube]
Bang.
 
The umpires say a lot of things, especially about taller types - FWIW he did get a BL vote in round 1; and he had twice the game of Hurley (2 votes) or Dahlhaus (1 vote) in the 2nd WB game.

He finished 9th in our B&F (bee's dick off 6th in an even year), so he was recognised by the club. He would've been competitive with the leaders, without that woeful 1/4 of the season.

It all comes back to this:
If you're not going to go back and watch those games, or look up who played well, you're simply not going to get any idea of what Ryder's capable of, and how he stacks up next to anyone... simple as that.
No-one's pissing on Kreuzer that I can see, we're just saying Ryder's work is going massively, massively under-appreciated.

I have seen Ryder play. I simply disagree with the call that his best is better than Kreuzer, given I'm not sure I saw any ruckman play as dominant a game as Kreuzer did against Sydney. I'm sure there might be a couple I'm forgetting but they'd be few and far between.

Still waiting on his B&F votes in those specific games...
 
Very interesting poll. Different players, both extremely impressive given their age.

Amongst ruckmen, Ryder is just so athletic and would probably be the best key position player in the league (Not counting pseudo ruckmen like Roughhead/Tippett. Hale goes okay as FF too). From what I have seen, Ryder is pretty convincing as a CHB and CHF (to a lesser extent). And not just as a resting KPP like other big guys.

Amongst ruckmen, Kreuzer would probably be the best 'midfielder' in the league. Cox has runs on the board in this department, but Kreuzer is possibly the first ruckman I have seen who is almost elite in the inside-mid play. VERY unusual.

So how about as ruckmen? Ryder would probably get the nod for the hit outs, but Kreuzer counters that with his overall centre-square work.

Tough one.

In my humble, and somewhat biased opinion, I would choose Krooz.

Mostly due to his consistency of output and effort. The guy just gives his all, all the time - which I rate as one of the most important characteristics for a footballer. I also think his 'inside mid' work (OK, he's no Judd/Boyd/Ablett) is just amazing for a ruck.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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I'm seeing a lot of ducking and weaving here.
Have you watched the bulk of those games that I, and others, have noted?
It's a yes/no question.


(I've absolutely no idea of the round-by-round breakdown, I'm sorry. All I can say is he was viewed in our best 10 across the whole year, and he sure as s**t didn't get any for about 6 weeks there, so it would make sense he was better than our 10th best, for the good 3/4 of his year.)
 

lamaros

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Borrowing this from the Essendon board, for those who aren't just trolling and care:

I am getting tired of the Paddy played bad/is inconsistent meme. He had a solid 2011, as reflected in the B&F results. Moreover his loss of 'form' was not due to him playing poorly in his position, but being moved around a lot and being asked to learn a new one.

For much of that period he was played as a third ruck come forward, a position that did not work and coincided with poor games to David Hille and Tom Bellchambers too. When the coaches finally did away with this system and made him first ruck again in round 15 he 'magically' returned to 'form'.

If you just took his B&F results from the games when he was first ruck, or split ruck with Hille, he would probably have won the thing. Of the games where we played only two rucks, Ryder was voted among the top 10, very often the top 5, in 13 of 16 games by the BigFooty Bombers. He was 4th overall for the year.

2011.

Round 1: Split ruck. Dominates with Hille against the Dogs. 2 goals. One of our best. Brownlow votes, etc.
Round 2: Bellchambers in for Hille. Made second ruck. Against the Swans he misses a couple he could have kicked. 2 goals 2. One of our better players.
Round 3: Second ruck again. Another 2 goals against Saints in an easy win. Decent game.
Round 4: Second ruck. Struggles against Carlton - as do our other forwards - Monfries, Crameri, Ryder and Hurley get a goal between them. Poor game.

Round 5: The 'Three rucks!' fun begins. Plays mostly forward. It doesn't work! Hille is average too! Poor game.
Round 6: Three rucks works, because GC are rubbish! Plays forward and he kicks three - two long from 50 in the first quarter when we finished the game. People are already on his case about 'form'.
Round 7: Three rucks! Played forward - doesn't take hitout all game - but still plays better than TBell. Poor game.
Round 8: Three rucks! Plays forward. Poor game.
Round 9: Three rucks! Actually rucks this game - does better then TBell but still struggles. Poor game.
Round 11: Three rucks! Plays forward. Kicks two goals - the most for our side - and is way better than Bellchambers in a poor team effort. Average.

Round 12: Two rucks. Plays mostly forward and kicks four goals. Decent game.
Round 13: Two rucks. Second ruck. 1 goal 3. Plays well but can't finish - like the whole team. Average.

Round 14: Three rucks! Plays forward. Hardly sees it in a pasting by the Hawks. Poor game.

Round 15-EF: Moved into first ruck for most games. Plays well or dominates very often. Votes in nine of the 10 games. Top 5 in most of those nine.

The Carlton game last year was the only time he played poorly playing in the ruck, imo. Every other poor game he was used as a forward who rucked third in line behind Hille, or just as a forward. And he was actually good in some of those.
 

lamaros

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Was Kreuzer injured against WC in round 14 last year? Or Fremantle and Hawthorn in rounds 21-22? Because those games were just as bad/worse than any Ryder played.
 
At the risk of starting a full on blue (and black and red), I would like to point out the following.

Many Essendon posters are using Patty Ryder's 9th place finish in Ess B&F last year (his sixth season) as proof of his consistency.

Matthew Kreuzer's last full year of football was 2009. He finished 5th in the B&F. In his second year in the AFL.

That year Carlton just made the 8 and got bundled out in the first round. So the side was roughly equally as strong as Essendon was last year.

Patty Ryder is much more consistent than his reputation calls for. But he still has room for improvement. Maybe he needs to be played in the one position before he can settle in to Essendon's best, week in week out.
 

lamaros

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At the risk of starting a full on blue (and black and red), I would like to point out the following.

Many Essendon posters are using Patty Ryder's 9th place finish in Ess B&F last year (his sixth season) as proof of his consistency.

Matthew Kreuzer's last full year of football was 2009. He finished 5th in the B&F. In his second year in the AFL.

That year Carlton just made the 8 and got bundled out in the first round. So the side was roughly equally as strong as Essendon was last year.

Patty Ryder is much more consistent than his reputation calls for. But he still has room for improvement. Maybe he needs to be played in the one position before he can settle in to Essendon's best, week in week out.

Ryder was 4th in our B&F in 2009. That was the first year he played in the ruck, and the first that we made finals in quite a while. He was suspended for the final, when we lost. (That year he played ruck every week from ANZAC day onwards.)

He was 7th in the B&F in 2008, playing as a 20 year old key defender in his third AFL season after being picked up as a 17 year old.

Patrick is only 14 months older than Kreuzer.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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^^^ Above are two pretty good posts on the topic. IMHO.

Reckon there's a fair bit in lamaros' theory re Ryder needing ruck time. Similar to Mitch Clark who blossomed in ~09 then, mysteriously, went to s**t as soon as Leunie started getting ruck time; or Sam Jacobs who, again mysteriously, wasn't much as a 4th in line ruck @ Carlton but blossomed when given the time & responsibility.
OTOH there have been periods where Kreuzer has been 3rd ruck/makeshift CHF, and he hasn't really starred either.
 
I'm seeing a lot of ducking and weaving here.
Have you watched the bulk of those games that I, and others, have noted?
It's a yes/no question.


(I've absolutely no idea of the round-by-round breakdown, I'm sorry. All I can say is he was viewed in our best 10 across the whole year, and he sure as s**t didn't get any for about 6 weeks there, so it would make sense he was better than our 10th best, for the good 3/4 of his year.)

I haven't watched him as often as you have but I'm sure I've seen more of Kreuzer than you. Goes both ways.

The second Bulldogs game he received no votes from either game. He received no votes in the Geelong win. Was equal 2nd BOG in the Sydney win according to the coaches.

Without looking at the other games, it seems your tating of him might be a touch high.

For the record, Kreuzer was given 10 votes by the coaches in the Sydney game last year.
 

lamaros

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^^^ Above are two pretty good posts on the topic. IMHO.

Reckon there's a fair bit in lamaros' theory re Ryder needing ruck time. Similar to Mitch Clark who blossomed in ~09 then, mysteriously, went to s**t as soon as Leunie started getting ruck time; or Sam Jacobs who, again mysteriously, wasn't much as a 4th in line ruck @ Carlton but blossomed when given the time & responsibility.
OTOH there have been periods where Kreuzer has been 3rd ruck/makeshift CHF, and he hasn't really starred either.

It's not just ruck time - it's more having a clear role. Our use of three rucks was ad-hoc, as can be seen by the fact that some games Ryder first rucked, some he second rucked, some he third rucked, some he just played forward.

When settled as forward/second ruck of two, or first ruck of two - or even as a defender - he was consistently good. Whenever we had three rucks he struggled.

It wasn't just him either: Hille and Bellchambers also played better when we had two rucks, and worse when we had three. Three rucks just didn't work.

Kreuzer was awful when asked to play as a key forward last year. He just wasn't asked as often. And was given the "coming back from injury" excuse.
 
Aug 16, 2006
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I haven't watched him as often as you have but I'm sure I've seen more of Kreuzer than you. Goes both ways.
It was a yes/no question - I'll take that as "no".

No one would, or has, denied Kreuzer's talent... we're just pointing out the other side of the coin - given that this is a comparison and all.

The way you're coming across, is that you just can't cop the possibility that Ryder played bloody well & better than Kreuzer - so you've consciously decided to remain ignorant. Which is more than a bit petty IMHO.

And btw I'm not sure one player being BOG in one game, necessarily means they played better than another guy, who wasn't BOG, in another game. Not necessarily.
 
It was a yes/no question - I'll take that as "no".

No one would, or has, denied Kreuzer's talent... we're just pointing out the other side of the coin - given that this is a comparison and all.

The way you're coming across, is that you just can't cop the possibility that Ryder played bloody well & better than Kreuzer - so you've consciously decided to remain ignorant. Which is more than a bit petty IMHO.

And btw I'm not sure one player being BOG in one game, necessarily means they played better than another guy, who wasn't BOG, in another game. Not necessarily.
Quit the straw man crap. You're accusing me of things I never argued. It's apparently ok for Essendon supporters to state that Ryder's best has clearly been better than Ryder's, yet for a Carlton supporter to insinuate the opposite is "more than a bit petty".

We can agree to disagree who's been better. Not once did I state that Ryder hasn't played great footy in his career. Nor have I denied Ryder's talent.
 
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