VFL Lance Collard Tribunal hearing

[phantom13]

I was glad to be out of this game, now we’re back.

Support is one thing, pandering is something else and that’s what we’re being asked to do.

The afl are in the virtue signalling business, they don’t care if collard said it or not they wanted to make a statement no matter the cost.

The statement that has everyone so upset and lead to the chairman being sacked wasn’t a statement of support. It was an acknowledgement of a fundamental truth.

I’m sure the afl have nether bothered to look at the science behind why we swear. If they had it would have revealed some ugly truths and provided some clarity that imo supports the appeals boards statement.

This is a self inflicted wound by the afl and imo they are doubling down.

I just want to watch the football, I don’t need or want the afl to tell me what to think or how to act. The afl is also becoming conspicuous for what they do and don’t speak out on, what a great situation for a sport.

Don’t agree with this at all.

We chose to initiate the pride game, it wasn’t an afl driven initiative, the club clearly feels it’s important enough to be involved in so that’s good enough for me.

Do you take issue with the Sir Doug Nicholls round? Cause it’s the same thing (except that actually is AFL driven not St.Kilda driven).

 

[phantom13]

Yet every guilty or allegedly guilty party is entitled to an appeal. Exactly as Sy.Kilda have done.

But they are saying that even appealing it undermines what they’re worked for. In other words the club has done the wrong thing by appealing.

That is what I object to.

That’s fair, that’s not what you originally stated though and again I agree with you we operated within the rules of the system. They shouldn’t be asking to meet with us.

 

[Diehard Saint]

That’s fair, that’s not what you originally stated though and again I agree with you we operated within the rules of the system. They shouldn’t be asking to meet with us.

Yep.
Have added a little to this post of mine you’re quoting.

 

[phantom13]

Yep.
Have added a little to this post of mine you’re quoting.

All good.

Fwiw I don’t think we’re even a part of this story anymore, we should be removed from the narrative or if we are to be included it should only be to note that the appeals board found it suitable to reduce the penalty due to the AFL and tribunals lack of process and procedural fairness whilst supporting our players position that he didn’t say what he’s alleged to have said.

The story isn’t about Lance and what he said anymore, that’s run and done, the story now is the tribunal, the appeals board and its “independence” and useless process and fairness. I personally think it sucks that it’s a case that’s also dragged in the indigenous communities and the LGBTIQA+ community to point out how ****ing shit it is but really both those elements are also now closed.

 

[jwikked]

Prisons are full of people who maintain their innocence.

There are also people in prison who are exonerated. They spend 30 years for a crime they are later proven to have not committed.

There are death row inmates who didn’t do the crime.

A guilty verdict doesn’t mean they did what is alleged

 

[phantom13]

There are also people in prison who are exonerated. They spend 30 years for a crime they are later proven to have not committed.

There are death row inmates who didn’t do the crime.

A guilty verdict doesn’t mean they did what is alleged

How many?

It’s pretty widely accepted that a guilty verdict overwhelmingly means the person did the thing they’re accused of doing and it’s also pretty widely accepted that after appeal maintaining that a person is guilty that noting they did it is pretty normal.

The average person saying “well Lance said it cause he was found guilty… twice” and any subsequent position on that is understandable.

The alternative argument is literally just “he said he didn’t do it” which, fair enough if you believe that, but if you’re going to apply that to literally everyone who said they didn’t do it you’re gonna support a lot more guilty people than innocent ones, like ALOT more.

In any event the point was more about the official facts of the outcome and the position others will take on it.

Factually he’s been found guilty and it was upheld in an appeal. It’s reasonable that people will be aggrieved by the sentence based on that

 

[gringo2011]

All good.

Fwiw I don’t think we’re even a part of this story anymore, we should be removed from the narrative or if we are to be included it should only be to note that the appeals board found it suitable to reduce the penalty due to the AFL and tribunals lack of process and procedural fairness whilst supporting our players position that he didn’t say what he’s alleged to have said.

The story isn’t about Lance and what he said anymore, that’s run and done, the story now is the tribunal, the appeals board and its “independence” and useless process and fairness. I personally think it sucks that it’s a case that’s also dragged in the indigenous communities and the LGBTIQA+ community to point out how ****ing shit it is but really both those elements are also now closed.

I reckon the AFL would regret their chosen causes these days. The AFL lead the community in stamping out racism when Aboriginals were genuinely vilified while trying to play the sport.

It was rightly proud of it's positioning but years later having causes has been pretty much an anchor around their necks. As incidents like the Fagan, Clarko and Cyril saga put it in an awkward position of supporting its best coaches against its favourite cause.

Then LGB stuff obviously makes the whole organisation look like it has no real interest in the cause other than signalling to the community that most players seem to be meathead bogans that use gay as an insult.

I know older gay men who think younger gays are not even a minority anymore. Talk about them like when Gen-X bag millennials for their soft feelings. It would be pretty rare to find genuine hate these days. It's more about using it as a slight or an insult than genuinely wishing harm.

It's not just the AFL. Corporations are struggling with the same issues around causes. Conservative and religious voices could turn it around and flip the script. The US seems to be pendulum swinging back that way as an overcorrection.

 

[BrutThough]

Instead of worrying about a meeting, I think the rainbow ducks should spend their time reading the public coverage of both tribunal hearings to gage an understanding of what our defence was and consider why we might be defending a young indigenous man who demands his innocence after being accused.

 

[phantom13]

I reckon the AFL would regret their chosen causes these days. The AFL lead the community in stamping out racism when Aboriginals were genuinely vilified while trying to play the sport.

It was rightly proud of it's positioning but years later having causes has been pretty much an anchor around their necks. As incidents like the Fagan, Clarko and Cyril saga put it in an awkward position of supporting its best coaches against its favourite cause.

Then LGB stuff obviously makes the whole organisation look like it has no real interest in the cause other than signalling to the community that most players seem to be meathead bogans that use gay as an insult.

I know older gay men who think younger gays are not even a minority anymore. Talk about them like when Gen-X bag millennials for their soft feelings. It would be pretty rare to find genuine hate these days. It's more about using it as a slight or an insult than genuinely wishing harm.

It's not just the AFL. Corporations are struggling with the same issues around causes. Conservative and religious voices could turn it around and flip the script. The US seems to be pendulum swinging back that way as an overcorrection.

I mostly agree with the sentiment about the causes and the AFL but you really lost me at the “older gays” stuff.

Gays and the LGBTIQA+ community is still a minority, they’re still subjected to hate crimes and discrimination and vilification. Suggesting otherwise is just false.

I’d say much of the overt stuff is more universally condemned now rather than it happening less. There’s also a myriad of other issues that younger queer people face that older ones didn’t.

If you speak to older gays then I would encourage you to also speak to younger gays and get their perspective. Otherwise you wind up just hearing the “stop having avo on toast” housing discussion with people out of touch with modernity.

 

[Sully111]

This mob can get stuffed.

We appealed because our player said he didn’t say the word and signed a stat dec to that effect. And in the circumstances I’m glad we did support him. These Rainbow Ducks seem to think we should ignore what Lance claims to be the truth and throw him under the bus.

I’d be more than happy to let some other club run the Pride Game with the Swans from here on.

More trouble than it’s worth if you ask me.

Rainbow Swans requests meeting with AFL, St Kilda

The LGBTQIA+ group are deeply disappointed with the handling of the Lance Collard situation.

www.zerohanger.com

Is there a rainbow Saints?

How about a Chinese Saints supporter group?

Or... a St Kilda supporter group for people that eat pizza with a knife and fork.

Maybe they could make sections at Marvel Stadium and we could all sit in our little groups.

You'll find me with the Hendrix lovin' groovy muthaf'k'rs

 

[gringo2011]

I mostly agree with the sentiment about the causes and the AFL but you really lost me at the “older gays” stuff.

Gays and the LGBTIQA+ community is still a minority, they’re still subjected to hate crimes and discrimination and vilification. Suggesting otherwise is just false.

I’d say much of the overt stuff is more universally condemned now rather than it happening less. There’s also a myriad of other issues that younger queer people face that older ones didn’t.

If you speak to older gays then I would encourage you to also speak to younger gays and get their perspective. Otherwise you wind up just hearing the “stop having avo on toast” housing discussion with people out of touch with modernity.

Are they though? Definitely once were. It wouldn't be an impediment to employment now. Might even be a benefit in some industries. It would be rare to see an anti LGBTQ hate crime now. Definitely wasn't the case right up until probably around the early 2000s.

I'm pretty inner city so see how different the way young people seem to be able to express themselves without judgement. When I was young we'd get bashed for being alternative dressed. You go down Smith street now and guys are dressed in a dress and handbag with a beard and no-one even looks at them.

It's this weird time where you can do pretty much anything you want but people are the loudest about how offended they are about their rights not being put on a pedestal.

I grew up with a lot of gay guys around and genuinely they were really seriously oppressed and persecuted group. Now it's not really the case. To me you are better to just keep quiet and live your life and not invite people to look into your business unless there is a genuine issue. Otherwise risk a backlash where sympathy turns to jealousy or at least compassion fatigue.

 

[gringo2011]

Is there a rainbow Saints?

How about a Chinese Saints supporter group?

Or... a St Kilda supporter group for people that eat pizza with a knife and fork.

Maybe they could make sections at Marvel Stadium and we could all sit in our little groups.

You'll find me with the Hendrix lovin' groovy muthaf'k'rs

Funny enough Collingwood has the biggest gay supporter base. Pink Magpies have been around for ages. Saints have always been a musos club.

 

[ScrappyDo]

A family stands with a member accused of murder. The alleged offender vigorously denies the crime.

The court nonetheless finds them guilty.

The alleged offender still maintains their innocence.

Should the family now regard the member as guilty and sever all ties?

That appears to be what the Rainbow Ducks are suggesting here.

I recall some feminist group stating that the finding of Amber Heard V Johnny Depp was terrible as it was bad for the feminist movement. Activists are activists and you can't expect well reasoned statements when their purpose is to front for their cause. It's really just muck raking journalism and aught go straight into the bin as irrelevant.

 

[phantom13]

Are they though? Definitely once were. It wouldn't be an impediment to employment now. Might even be a benefit in some industries. It would be rare to see an anti LGBTQ hate crime now. Definitely wasn't the case right up until probably around the early 2000s.

I'm pretty inner city so see how different the way young people seem to be able to express themselves without judgement. When I was young we'd get bashed for being alternative dressed. You go down Smith street now and guys are dressed in a dress and handbag with a beard and no-one even looks at them.

It's this weird time where you can do pretty much anything you want but people are the loudest about how offended they are about their rights not being put on a pedestal.

I grew up with a lot of gay guys around and genuinely they were really seriously oppressed and persecuted group. Now it's not really the case. To me you are better to just keep quiet and live your life and not invite people to look into your business unless there is a genuine issue. Otherwise risk a backlash where sympathy turns to jealousy or at least compassion fatigue.

Pretty bubbled view there. What about outside the inner city? I worked with a boss who was pretty open about not hiring indigenous people or gays. Just cause he didn’t note that as the reason on the interview process doesn’t mean that wasn’t the reason.

I was lucky enough to meet a number to 78ers at one of the Mardi Gras. To a person everyone of them acknowledged the progress that has been made whilst also noting we’ve got a long way to go. That’s really the point I think it’s worth making and “yeh but it’s good now so don’t keep going cause you’ll upset people” is the antithesis of that. It’s also what people like the 78ers got cause at least the gays weren’t being burned at the stake anymore.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Pretty bubbled view there. What about outside the inner city? I worked with a boss who was pretty open about not hiring indigenous people or gays. Just cause he didn’t note that as the reason on the interview process doesn’t mean that wasn’t the reason.

I was lucky enough to meet a number to 78ers at one of the Mardi Gras. To a person everyone of them acknowledged the progress that has been made whilst also noting we’ve got a long way to go. That’s really the point I think it’s worth making and “yeh but it’s good now so don’t keep going cause you’ll upset people” is the antithesis of that. It’s also what people like the 78ers got cause at least the gays weren’t being burned at the stake anymore.

Sounds like you're chasing an unobtainable ideal. Like you said, the overt stuff (and this can be generalised) is gone from our society these days. The middle ground is roughly occupied by tolerance, acceptance and supportive as grades of position.
For those who swing towards anti-gay sentiments we ask for tolerance. Any further than that infringes on peoples belief systems.
The vast majority of society now sit within the acceptance category which is the middle of the middle, but there are always gonna be outliers particularly outside city regions that are slower to uptake social changes.

 

[phantom13]

Sounds like you're chasing an unobtainable ideal. Like you said, the overt stuff (and this can be generalised) is gone from our society these days. The middle ground is roughly occupied by tolerance, acceptance and supportive as grades of position.
For those who swing towards anti-gay sentiments we ask for tolerance. Any further than that infringes on peoples belief systems.
The vast majority of society now sit within the acceptance category which is the middle of the middle, but there are always gonna be outliers particularly outside city regions that are slower to uptake social changes.

I never said it was gone, at all, it’s not.

We might never achieve a utopia but that doesn’t mean we should just accept whatever standard we’ve currently got. I’m sure people said the same thing before we had a Mardi Gras, ssm etc.

Anyway, we’re a long way off Lance again.