Society/Culture Landlords - What is the point?

[sataris]

What do people think of government as landlords? or local council?

If you'r talking about Social housing for all citizens, Most people think it's a good idea (myself included),

Most people will point to Singapore as an example, but Singapore has other considerations that Australia doesn't have.

e.g. Extremely limited land, small country and a population who understand they have extremely limited land and are a small nation.

The government here has no qualms about destroying/tearing down social housing to build infrastructure, shopping malls, whatever else it deems to be for the greater good, and shuffling the families off to other social housing in other parts of the country.

I doubt that kind of systemic social housing will work in Australia though.

Don't even get me started on the free-hold vs 99 year lease thing, people would have kittens in Australia.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Singapore model would be ideal, but I don't think there will ever be enough political will for it to work in Australia.

 

[sataris]

Singapore model would be ideal, but I don't think there will ever be enough political will for it to work in Australia.

Will never happen.

Would require a government to act in the interest of the people.

 

[Big Papa Ted]

Will never happen.

Would require a government to act in the interest of the people.

Would also require people to act in the interest of other people.

 

[burge13]

What's the Singapore model?

The trouble with government is landlord as queried, is our governments at all levels are morons, and driven by self interest. No thanks. Only people less trustworthy than car salesmen are our politicians .

Public service should ideally manage lots more in this country than it does but thank * they dont tbh. Its one giant nepotism ridden cluster*. Keep them out of as much as possible if you want anything to work

 

[sataris]

What's the Singapore model?

The trouble with government is landlord as queried, is our governments at all levels are morons, and driven by self interest. No thanks. Only people less trustworthy than car salesmen are our politicians .

Public service should ideally manage lots more in this country than it does but thank * they dont tbh. Its one giant nepotism ridden cluster*. Keep them out of as much as possible if you want anything to work

Essentially all citizens are offered social housing at subsidized rates by the government.

Government decides who lives where, if you wish to purchase your own property you give up your subsidized apartment and pay market rates.

There are also 99 year leases and freehold properties here.

Essentially 99 year lease means the building/property has a 99 year lease with the government, after that period the property returns to government ownership. Your 'ownership' of a property is superceded by the lease, so after 99 years you get kicked out, and have to start again with a new mortgage or go back to subsidized housing.

Freehold properties are owned by you in perpetuity, extremely rare so expect to pay well north of $1.5m

PS; This is the primary school edition of this information, there's alot more nuance but this is basically it.

 

[kranky al]

Over the next year theres gojng to be a lot of second hand quite luxurious caravans on the market. You would be better off buying one of these and getting a long term rental at a caravan park so after you have paid your van off you can save for s house deposit.

I wish i would gave thought of this a long time ago, we spent 18 months travelling australia in a 4wd and camper trailer. We owned a 2 br unit in perth, but ended the trip in kalgoorlie broke as so parked the camper trailer in the van park, got a job on the mines and stayed there till summer interacted with nightshift too much and rented a house.

For the next 6 years we rented from kal to geraldton and if i had my time again id have purchased a good quality luxury caravan and just stayed in that. Instead of paying someone elses house off id have paid a van off and then started saving money every week.

Then you buy a house and you own a caravan as well - which you can either keep or sell and as a bonus a caravan holds its value pretty well… heaps better than dead rent does anyway…

 

[Gigantic]

If we were serious about making housing more accessible, Singapore model with mid density housing would be the way to go - like sataris said, we don't have the issues Singapore did/do with very limited land to work with.

Many examples across the world, and particularly across Europe, that have made mid density 4-6 story buildings quite ideal.

 

[owen87]

What's the Singapore model?

The trouble with government is landlord as queried, is our governments at all levels are morons, and driven by self interest. No thanks. Only people less trustworthy than car salesmen are our politicians .

Public service should ideally manage lots more in this country than it does but thank * they dont tbh. Its one giant nepotism ridden cluster*. Keep them out of as much as possible if you want anything to work

Most of this isn't backed by reality.

Yes Government is at times inept, and yes Politicians can be extremely selfish, corrupt and self interested. But time and again we've seen that privatising things only makes things worse, not better.

 

[TheBigHorne]

Most of this isn't backed by reality.

Yes Government is at times inept, and yes Politicians can be extremely selfish, corrupt and self interested. But time and again we've seen that privatising things only makes things worse, not better.

Governments will sometimes be good, sometimes be s**t but corporations will always act in the interest of themselves.

 

[DangerousD]

Essentially all citizens are offered social housing at subsidized rates by the government.

Government decides who lives where, if you wish to purchase your own property you give up your subsidized apartment and pay market rates.

There are also 99 year leases and freehold properties here.

Essentially 99 year lease means the building/property has a 99 year lease with the government, after that period the property returns to government ownership. Your 'ownership' of a property is superceded by the lease, so after 99 years you get kicked out, and have to start again with a new mortgage or go back to subsidized housing.

Freehold properties are owned by you in perpetuity, extremely rare so expect to pay well north of $1.5m

PS; This is the primary school edition of this information, there's alot more nuance but this is basically it.

Hi Sataris, I saw that you used the word here in relation to Singapore, do you live there? I’ve seen a few people recently use Singapore as an example to aspire to on a few things and wondered what people thought who actually lived there, as far as I’m aware Singapore is pretty much a dictatorship, the same party has ruled the country since it’s independence decades ago, as you say government supply housing and where you live, this sounds pretty controlling to me.

Living in Singapore do people notice this stuff or worry, or do they not care because it works?

 

[owen87]

Hi Sataris, I saw that you used the word here in relation to Singapore, do you live there? I’ve seen a few people recently use Singapore as an example to aspire to on a few things and wondered what people thought who actually lived there, as far as I’m aware Singapore is pretty much a dictatorship, the same party has ruled the country since it’s independence decades ago, as you say government supply housing and where you live, this sounds pretty controlling to me.

Living in Singapore do people notice this stuff or worry, or do they not care because it works?

I think you're conflating a number of things here and drawing incorrect conclusions.

 

[Gigantic]

as far as I’m aware Singapore is pretty much a dictatorship

It's not what you would conventionally consider a dictatorship. If anything, perhaps a benevolent dictatorship but even then Singapore has a political and democratic system based on election. It just so happens that the PM gets voted in each time. They are tough on crime, has some degree of censorship, and politics may be skewed in favour of one party... but that all exists in the western world too.

as you say government supply housing and where you live, this sounds pretty controlling to me.

The government doesn't choose where you live. There is a government agency (HBD) that buys and builds new dwellings on public and reclaimed land, and provides these to citizens who meet the criteria (based on income, age etc).

There are various rules and controls from a town planning perspective and approval process to prevent racial enclaves from developing and to create mixed-income communities.

There is also a resale market - but sellers can only sell to buyers who are eligible to purchase - so if you decide you want to move elsewhere, or rent, or purchase your own freehold home, then you're more than welcome.

What it essentially means is that every Singapore citizen has the opportunity to buy a home.

 

[DangerousD]

I think you're conflating a number of things here and drawing incorrect conclusions.

That’s why I asked someone who it seems lived there. More than happy to hear your thoughts if you’ve lived there.

From the outside, I’m very sceptical of a political party who has managed to win every election for the last 59 years,

 

[DangerousD]

It's not what you would conventionally consider a dictatorship. If anything, perhaps a benevolent dictatorship but even then Singapore has a political and democratic system based on election. It just so happens that the PM gets voted in each time. They are tough on crime, has some degree of censorship, and politics may be skewed in favour of one party... but that all exists in the western world too.



The government doesn't choose where you live. There is a government agency (HBD) that buys and builds new dwellings on public and reclaimed land, and provides these to citizens who meet the criteria (based on income, age etc).

There are various rules and controls from a town planning perspective and approval process to prevent racial enclaves from developing and to create mixed-income communities.

There is also a resale market - but sellers can only sell to buyers who are eligible to purchase - so if you decide you want to move elsewhere, or rent, or purchase your own freehold home, then you're more than welcome.

What it essentially means is that every Singapore citizen has the opportunity to buy a home.

I like the idea of the housing plan you say they have, although I am very sceptical of a political party who have won every election for the last 59 years, Russia has elections, it doesn’t make them very democratic though.

 

[sataris]

Hi Sataris, I saw that you used the word here in relation to Singapore, do you live there? I’ve seen a few people recently use Singapore as an example to aspire to on a few things and wondered what people thought who actually lived there, as far as I’m aware Singapore is pretty much a dictatorship, the same party has ruled the country since it’s independence decades ago, as you say government supply housing and where you live, this sounds pretty controlling to me.

Living in Singapore do people notice this stuff or worry, or do they not care because it works?

I've lived in Singapore for the past 10 years, and I can say the people here are very pro HDB.

Gigantic is correct with his statements.

 

[owen87]

That’s why I asked someone who it seems lived there. More than happy to hear your thoughts if you’ve lived there.

From the outside, I’m very sceptical of a political party who has managed to win every election for the last 59 years,

sataris and Gigantic have explained it pretty well.

It's not really a dictatorship, elections are technically free and fair, but the Government does gerrymander the electorates regularly to manufacture a favourable outcome. It also lacks most of the other major hallmarks of living under a dictatorship.

Housing is provided as a service, because the scarcity of land and relatively dense population means private home ownership is simply out of reach for a significant portion of the population, especially the lower paid immigrant population who underpin a lot of labour type jobs.

You put them all together to form a picture of a controlling dictatorship, but in reality it's not.

 

[OPofJazz]

sataris and Gigantic have explained it pretty well.

It's not really a dictatorship, elections are technically free and fair, but the Government does gerrymander the electorates regularly to manufacture a favourable outcome. It also lacks most of the other major hallmarks of living under a dictatorship.

Housing is provided as a service, because the scarcity of land and relatively dense population means private home ownership is simply out of reach for a significant portion of the population, especially the lower paid immigrant population who underpin a lot of labour type jobs.

You put them all together to form a picture of a controlling dictatorship, but in reality it's not.

Not very different from our system in Australia. We have the Illusion of choice. At least a dictator can get stuff done.

 

[owen87]

Not very different from our system in Australia. We have the Illusion of choice. At least a dictator can get stuff done.

Plenty of freedom obsessed Americans are a big fan of Putin and Xi 'getting stuff done' that's for sure.

 

[Jafa]

For the next 6 years we rented from kal to geraldton and if i had my time again id have purchased a good quality luxury caravan and just stayed in that. Instead of paying someone elses house off id have paid a van off and then started saving money every week.

Rentals on homes don't pay loans off. Perhaps some of the interest. My housing rentals really only pay the outgoings with a modest amount left over. My commercial properties however are the ones that make bank.

 

[kranky al]

Rentals on homes don't pay loans off. Perhaps some of the interest. My housing rentals really only pay the outgoings with a modest amount left over. My commercial properties however are the ones that make bank.

Very dependent on where you live.

But at the end of the day the capital gain you unlock whilst having someone else pay a substantial amount off the loan for you is better than nothing.

 

[Jafa]

Very dependent on where you live.

But at the end of the day the capital gain you unlock whilst having someone else pay a substantial amount off the loan for you is better than nothing.

You use the word substantial - its not.

By the time you pay the rates, water rates, sewerage, insurance (building and tenent), agent fees, leasing fees, the inevitable breakdown and fix, strata fees (in my case) and fix the "normal wear and tear" when they move out a big chunk is gone. As I said at best it will help with the interest. Once you start getting into positive territory the government puts their hand out for their cut.

Go commercial. The tenant pays everything, and they can't just cut and run.

 

[kranky al]

You use the word substantial - its not.

By the time you pay the rates, water rates, sewerage, insurance (building and tenent), agent fees, leasing fees, the inevitable breakdown and fix, strata fees (in my case) and fix the "normal wear and tear" when they move out a big chunk is gone. As I said at best it will help with the interest. Once you start getting into positive territory the government puts their hand out for their cut.

Go commercial. The tenant pays everything, and they can't just cut and run.

You assume ive never been a landlord.

I have - and considering that you get to negatively gear the rest its not too bad of a deal.

 

[Jafa]

You assume ive never been a landlord.

No. You could own a million dollar apartment in Peppie grove that you picked up for a song. But that would be an outlier.

I have - and considering that you get to negatively gear the rest its not too bad of a deal.

Thats a different argument.

 

[owen87]

You use the word substantial - its not.

By the time you pay the rates, water rates, sewerage, insurance (building and tenent), agent fees, leasing fees, the inevitable breakdown and fix, strata fees (in my case) and fix the "normal wear and tear" when they move out a big chunk is gone. As I said at best it will help with the interest. Once you start getting into positive territory the government puts their hand out for their cut.

Go commercial. The tenant pays everything, and they can't just cut and run.

Commercial is much more positively geared, but also a much higher barrier for entry than residential property.

There's a good commercial real estate podcast called by a group called Rethink investment from memory.