Largest settlement to not have hosted first class Australian rules football

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

Not sure where this enquiry exactly goes hopefully it gets moved to a relevant section.

I asked this in an RL forum and wondered what would be the answer for Australian rules.

It is a tricky one.
How does one define settlement, the extents of it, and whether a place is a distinct one or part of a larger location.

Additionally do you define first class Aussie rules?

I would assume VFL, AFL, SANFL, WAFL games. What else?

 

[Gavin Excell]

Without any research I'd take a guess at either Newcastle or Wollongong for AFL/VFL

You need to define your scope a little tighter if using "first class Aussie rules "

Also the Australian Bureau of Statistics has definitions about Cities and Significant Urban Areas that would be a good starting point.

 

[Fire]

You need to define your scope a little tighter if using "first class Aussie rules "

Also the Australian Bureau of Statistics has definitions about Cities and Significant Urban Areas that would be a good starting point.

Yeah you need to define what it is. Is it a game for points? Then yeah Newcastle is my best guess too.
But there have been current AFL/VFL clubs that have played composite or exhibitions in Newcastle going back to the 1800s. So the parameters need to be defined.

 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

Without a

Yeah you need to define what it is. Is it a game for points? Then yeah Newcastle is my best guess too.
But there have been current AFL/VFL clubs that have played composite or exhibitions in Newcastle going back to the 1800s. So the parameters need to be defined.

ny research I'd take a guess at either Newcastle or Wollongong for AFL/VFL

You need to define your scope a little tighter if using "first class Aussie rules "

Also the Australian Bureau of Statistics has definitions about Cities and Significant Urban Areas that would be a good starting point.

As a relative newbie to the game I am not fully sure what would be regarded as FC Aussie rules.

At a minimum I guess competitive matches in the top level national/state leagues.

Any international matches if applicable

Are there any other matches that could be regarded as FC Aussie rules?

 

[HairyO]

As a relative newbie to the game I am not fully sure what would be regarded as FC Aussie rules.

At a minimum I guess competitive matches in the top level national/state leagues.

Any international matches if applicable

Are there any other matches that could be regarded as FC Aussie rules?

State and national are all I would consider.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Not sure where this enquiry exactly goes hopefully it gets moved to a relevant section.

I asked this in an RL forum and wondered what would be the answer for Australian rules.

It is a tricky one.
How does one define settlement, the extents of it, and whether a place is a distinct one or part of a larger location.

Additionally do you define first class Aussie rules?

I would assume VFL, AFL, SANFL, WAFL games. What else?

I presume First Class means VFL/AFL for premiership points post 1991, VFL/AFL + SANFL from 1987-1990, or pre-1987 any of the Tier 1 leagues (VFL/SANFL/WAFL).

If so, Newcastle. By a wide margin. Ar close to 500k.
I was going to say Townsville, but apparently they have hosted.
Sunshine Coast (if that gets counted as one "settlement" rather than a region, much like Gold Coast it was a region now regarded as a single city), Toowoomba, Ipswich, Wollongong.

After that we're getting into roughly the same size around 80-110k, and where choosing where the borders are drawn might make the difference. Bendigo, Wagga Wagga, Rockhampton probably fall into this category. I think Albury hosted a VFL game in the 1920s.


Note: Eagles joined the VFL in 1987 which is why I'm ruling out WAFL from that point, Crows the AFL in 1991, meaning all three big states (equivalent to FC) were involved in one league by that point. Other definitions are equally valid, but probably change little.

 

[emuboy]

Without any research I'd take a guess at either Newcastle or Wollongong for AFL/VFL

You need to define your scope a little tighter if using "first class Aussie rules "

Also the Australian Bureau of Statistics has definitions about Cities and Significant Urban Areas that would be a good starting point.

I was thinking about Newcastle, Gosford and Wollongong the other day and whether they would be viable prospects for Victorian clubs to host games against the Swans and Giants especially with Tasmania entering the AFL in 2028 and the Hawks and Kangaroos no longer able to play games in Launceston and Hobart from these years.

Back in the day I don't remember the Swans or Giants playing pre-season games in these cities either - possibly they did and I don't remember - but surely given the populations there would be enough AFL supporters there to make games in these regions viable and given they aren't too far from Sydney it would be an easy commute for Swans and Giants fans who wanted to support their teams.

 

[Tall poppy Syndrome]

Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Population approx 17 million.

I know for a fact that footies have been kicked there. But nothing that could pass for first class Aussie Rules.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I was thinking about Newcastle, Gosford and Wollongong the other day and whether they would be viable prospects for Victorian clubs to host games against the Swans and Giants especially with Tasmania entering the AFL in 2028 and the Hawks and Kangaroos no longer able to play games in Launceston and Hobart from these years.

Back in the day I don't remember the Swans or Giants playing pre-season games in these cities either - possibly they did and I don't remember - but surely given the populations there would be enough AFL supporters there to make games in these regions viable and given they aren't too far from Sydney it would be an easy commute for Swans and Giants fans who wanted to support their teams.

It would require either a lot of spending by the NSW government, or Mount Barker style temporary stands everywhere.

Newcastle #1 (picture from Austadiums)
That's fine for a ListA or Shield cricekt match every few years, where maybe 500 people will turn up. But that's about it.




I don't imagine Wollongong or Gosford have anything any more substantial. Unless BBL or international cricket is played there, ovals just don't spectator facilities in NSW and Qld.

 

[Cmarsh]

It would require either a lot of spending by the NSW government, or Mount Barker style temporary stands everywhere.

Newcastle #1 (picture from Austadiums)
That's fine for a ListA or Shield cricekt match every few years, where maybe 500 people will turn up. But that's about it.

View attachment 2551014


I don't imagine Wollongong or Gosford have anything any more substantial. Unless BBL or international cricket is played there, ovals just don't spectator facilities in NSW and Qld.

It was reported by the Newcastle Herald a few months ago that the Swans were in talks to play a 2027 preseason game at Newcastle no. 1.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

I was thinking about Newcastle, Gosford and Wollongong the other day and whether they would be viable prospects for Victorian clubs to host games against the Swans and Giants especially with Tasmania entering the AFL in 2028 and the Hawks and Kangaroos no longer able to play games in Launceston and Hobart from these years.

A challenge, especially on the Central Coast, is suitable grounds.

If you're expecting a few thousand people to come up from Sydney, you really want an oval near a train station.

While Gosford does have Blue Tongue Stadium (or whatever it's called these days), there's not a cricket oval within easy walking distance of Gosford station.

You might potentially need to hold the game somewhere like Woy Woy, which does have a cricket oval near the station, rather than Gosford.

The other issues are that while the Central Coast does have a couple of airstrips, including one at Warnervale, it doesn't have a full-sized commercial airport as far as I'm aware.

That's an issue if you want a couple of thousand people flying up from Melbourne.

Also, I'm sorry to say that Gosford is a bit of a hole. There's a big shopping centre on the Central Coast called Erina Fair that basically sucked the life out of the Gosford CBD.

Now, Newcastle is more viable as an option.

There's a few ovals (Hawkins Oval, Number One Sports Ground) within walking distance of a station.

It's got an airport.

It's got a surprising number of decent bars abd restaurants.

And it's two hours from Sydney Central station by train, so a viable commute.

Add some temporary stands, upgrade the change rooms, and add a new scoreboard, and you could potentially host an AFL match up there.

Wollongong I don't think has a cricket ground near its CBD. You might need to go a bit further out.

There are some ovals around the University of Wollongong, in Wollongong North, that might potentially work?

There is an airport in Albion Park, with a train station and an oval nearby. That's a bit further out into the suburbs.

So as long as the AFL would be happy with a venue a but further out from the CBD, it might work.

 

[Cmarsh]

A challenge, especially on the Central Coast, is suitable grounds.

If you're expecting a few thousand people to come up from Sydney, you really want an oval near a train station.

While Gosford does have Blue Tongue Stadium (or whatever it's called these days), there's not a cricket oval within easy walking distance of Gosford station.

You might potentially need to hold the game somewhere like Woy Woy, which does have a cricket oval near the station, rather than Gosford.

The other issues are that while the Central Coast does have a couple of airstrips, including one at Warnervale, it doesn't have a full-sized commercial airport as far as I'm aware.

That's an issue if you want a couple of thousand people flying up from Melbourne.

Also, I'm sorry to say that Gosford is a bit of a hole. There's a big shopping centre on the Central Coast called Erina Fair that basically sucked the life out of the Gosford CBD.

Now, Newcastle is more viable as an option.

There's a few ovals (Hawkins Oval, Number One Sports Ground) within walking distance of a station.

It's got an airport.

It's got a surprising number of decent bars abd restaurants.

And it's two hours from Sydney Central station by train, so a viable commute.

Add some temporary stands, upgrade the change rooms, and add a new scoreboard, and you could potentially host an AFL match up there.

Wollongong I don't think has a cricket ground near its CBD. You might need to go a bit further out.

There are some ovals around the University of Wollongong, in Wollongong North, that might potentially work?

There is an airport in Albion Park, with a train station and an oval nearby. That's a bit further out into the suburbs.

So as long as the AFL would be happy with a venue a but further out from the CBD, it might work.

Funnily enough the current home of the mariners at Gosford you refer to was actually a cricket oval called Graham Park before it was redeveloped into the rectangular stadium it is today.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

It was reported by the Newcastle Herald a few months ago that the Swans were in talks to play a 2027 preseason game at Newcastle no. 1.

They have played pre-seaon games there before I think, a few thousand standing room or something. That's ptobably not going to fly for a league match.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

Now, if you want a city in NSW that could plausibly host regular season AFL games, Albury is a good option.

There's around 100,000 in Albury–Wodonga itself, but I'm sure you'd get many more driving down from Wagga or Wangaratta.

 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

Interesting. Thank you for your responses.

Is Newcastle smaller than any of the Sydney suburbs that could be regarded as distinct settlements in their own right?

Like Canterbury, Bankstown, Paramatta, Penrith, and so on?

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

Interesting. Thank you for your responses.

Is Newcastle smaller than any of the Sydney suburbs that could be regarded as distinct settlements in their own right?

Like Canterbury, Bankstown, Paramatta, Penrith, and so on?

Newcastle has around 600,000 to 700,000 people or thereabouts in its metropolitan area.

It's the seventh largest metro area in Australia, has more people than the ACT, Tasmania, or the NT. It's a little under half the size of Adelaide.

As for regions of Sydney that have not hosted an V/AFL game, but have a bigger population than Newcastle (I think that's what you mean by the second part of the question? i wouldn't call them "distinct settlements" though, just regions of a metro area.)

The SCG is in the eastern suburbs, do that's covered.

Olympic Park kinda falls just outside the Inner West. The local council area is Parramatta. Plus GWS also played in Blacktown. So for the purposes of this, let's call Western Sydney and the Inner West covered.

So that leaves southwest Sydney (think Campbell town/Camden/Liverpool); and the North Shore (if you count the Lower North Shore, Upper North Shore, and Ryde together) as the two big regions.

I'm not sure if the Northern Beaches have a bigger population than Newcastle (I suspect not). And probably the southern suburbs (we're lumping Cronulla, the Shire, and places like Rockdale together on that one). I'm pretty sure the Hills doesn't have over 600,000 people either.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

There'd be very few due to the vfl having australia rounds back in the day

 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

Newcastle has around 600,000 to 700,000 people or thereabouts in its metropolitan area.

It's the seventh largest metro area in Australia, has more people than the ACT, Tasmania, or the NT. It's a little under half the size of Adelaide.

As for regions of Sydney that have not hosted an V/AFL game, but have a bigger population than Newcastle (I think that's what you mean by the second part of the question? i wouldn't call them "distinct settlements" though, just regions of a metro area.)

The SCG is in the eastern suburbs, do that's covered.

Olympic Park kinda falls just outside the Inner West. The local council area is Parramatta. Plus GWS also played in Blacktown. So for the purposes of this, let's call Western Sydney and the Inner West covered.

So that leaves southwest Sydney (think Campbell town/Camden/Liverpool); and the North Shore (if you count the Lower North Shore, Upper North Shore, and Ryde together) as the two big regions.

I'm not sure if the Northern Beaches have a bigger population than Newcastle (I suspect not). And probably the southern suburbs (we're lumping Cronulla, the Shire, and places like Rockdale together on that one). I'm pretty sure the Hills doesn't have over 600,000 people either.

Hmmm.
I personally do not regard the metro area as a measure for a city nor do I regard in full local government areas as one either as many often lump distinct settlements together; contain an area larger than the core urban sprawl or they can change at any point. For example Canterbury/Bankstown were two separate LGAs until circa 2016

That being said Newcastle possibly still would be the best candidate for this as I assume the centre of population for the wider metro area would be the main Newcastle settlement there anyways.

Thank you for responding.

 

[glengowan]

In 1883, South Melbourne toured and played a game in Newcastle against a combined Northern Districts team, winning by a goal.

 

[Shane Heard]

Refer to “ the Barassi line”

Other than that… Victorian clubs travelled and played many games in WA, SA and NSW and Qld going back to the early 1900s

Exhibition / practice games.

 

[SouthBedfordshireFan]

In 1883, South Melbourne toured and played a game in Newcastle against a combined Northern Districts team, winning by a goal.

Would such a match be regarded as FC though?

As a minimum I would assume no with regards to any exhibitions and other such proselytising matches

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Hmmm.
I personally do not regard the metro area as a measure for a city nor do I regard in full local government areas as one either as many often lump distinct settlements together; contain an area larger than the core urban sprawl or they can change at any point. For example Canterbury/Bankstown were two separate LGAs until circa 2016

That being said Newcastle possibly still would be the best candidate for this as I assume the centre of population for the wider metro area would be the main Newcastle settlement there anyways.

Thank you for responding.

Exactly where to draw borders on these things is tricky.
Newcastle's "Significant Urban Area", one measure used by the ABS, is around 510k and is technically Newcastle-Maitland. Greater Newcastle (not an ABS measure) 550k, but the catchment for games or a team could be considered to include much of the eastern Hunter and rise to something more than that.

Similarly a single suburb within Sydney would not come close. But a region of Sydney easily could.
Does GWS really have any presence in the south-west or outer west of Sydney, for example. The case could be made that a Liverpool or Campbelltown side could reach over 1 million people that the Giants only nominally cover, depending on where the borders get drawn. That is sort of the theory behind A-League "Macarthur" team, not doing so well yet but that might change as the area includes Sydney's "third CBD" amd the new airport.

Newcastle-Maitland Significant Urban Area (courtesy ABS https://www.abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/search-by-area ). How much further out would be considered part of the catchment for a Newcastle based event? Certainly further, but arguable how far.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think metro area/significant urban area is absolutely the way to measure it.

Sometimes the difference between a settlement and the metro area is an arbitrary line, but it's still the same market.

 

[glengowan]

Would such a match be regarded as FC though?

As a minimum I would assume no with regards to any exhibitions and other such proselytising matches

No, I wouldn't think so. There'd be a number of touring teams/trial games etc that would've been played around Australia in country venues by VFL/SANFL/WAFL clubs.

I was searching for if there were any State matches played in country NSW (and other places) and came across the South Melbourne one. I think you could classify all State matches as "1st Class". These matches have been played for well over 100 years between all states (and even New Zealand). I couldn't find an easy list displaying fixtures/results etc.