Leaving Neverland

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BlakeyNoFlakey

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#2
This was a review I posted in another thread:

Leaving Neverland (2018)

This isn't a movie, but a two part documentary made by HBO about pedophile Michael Jackson and how he abused boys as young as 7. Two of the boys (now men obviously) who also testified for Jackson in his trials gives us a tell all on what really went on. The M.O. of a pedophile is exposed in Jackson, from grooming families and victims with his fame and wealth, insisting the boys keep their sexual relationship secret or bad things will happen, and ultimately, distorting love so much in their young minds that they'd protect him even in court because they believed they loved Jackson, and he them. But their adult lives unravel, secrets hidden tearing away at them. The hardest thing to come to terms with as a viewer is how these men testified on Jackson's behalf are now saying they were abused. The cynic might think they're doing it for nefarious reasons. But IMO, you can clearly see the power Jackson had over these boys/men and their families, a power he abused in the worst possible way. 8/10

I will add that I felt really disturbed after watching this documentary. It took me ages to stop feeling sick about what a despicable monster Michael Jackson really was. I will never listen to his music again, that's for sure. It's a good lesson to us all, just because someone is famous or happens to be very good at something, doesn't automatically make them a good person.
 
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King Elvis

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#3
The question around his music is an interesting one (haven't watched the doco yet); he was clearly ****** up, everyone knew he had massive issues...

But he was still an incredible artist - so does that get eradicated from society now?
 

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Thread starter #4
Th
This was a review I posted in another thread:

Leaving Neverland (2018)

This isn't a movie, but a two part documentary made by HBO about pedophile Michael Jackson and how he abused boys as young as 7. Two of the boys (now men obviously) who also testified for Jackson in his trials gives us a tell all on what really went on. The M.O. of a pedophile is exposed in Jackson, from grooming families and victims with his fame and wealth, insisting the boys keep their sexual relationship secret or bad things will happen, and ultimately, distorting love so much in their young minds that they'd protect him even in court because they believed they loved Jackson, and he them. But their adult lives unravel, secrets hidden tearing away at them. The hardest thing to come to terms with as a viewer is how these men testified on Jackson's behalf are now saying they were abused. The cynic might think they're doing it for nefarious reasons. But IMO, you can clearly see the power Jackson had over these boys/men and their families, a power he abused in the worst possible way. 8/10

I will add that I felt really disturbed after watching this documentary. It took me ages to stop feeling sick about what a despicable monster Michael Jackson really was. I will never listen to his music again, that's for sure. It's a good lesson to us all, just because someone is famous or happens to be very good at something, doesn't automatically make them a good person.
agree with all, the grooming and coaching was so prevalent in how
they articulated their relationship to mj.
 

Percel

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The question around his music is an interesting one (haven't watched the doco yet); he was clearly ****** up, everyone knew he had massive issues...

But he was still an incredible artist - so does that get eradicated from society now?
Hard to say, close Friends and family who have watched this are steadfast In their decision to cut him and his music off completely,

great question.
 

King Elvis

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#8
Hard to say, close Friends and family who have watched this are steadfast In their decision to cut him and his music off completely,

great question.
For real?

I’ve got no doubt he was ****** in the head and probably a pedo...

But I don’t think it’ll stop me listening to his music.
 

hey shorty

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#9
For real?

I’ve got no doubt he was ****** in the head and probably a pedo...

But I don’t think it’ll stop me listening to his music.
It's happening to R Kelly. Now he wasn't on the same level as MJ but so many radio stations have cut his music.

I'm a bit the same as yourself though, I won't stop listening, I've always held the same beliefs about MJ the person as I do now.

It's a bit like the Catholic church. People are still going to be Catholic even though their church is ****** up beyond belief.
 

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#10
The question around his music is an interesting one (haven't watched the doco yet); he was clearly ****** up, everyone knew he had massive issues...

But he was still an incredible artist - so does that get eradicated from society now?
Elvis married a 14 year old. I think Jim Jeffries has a bit about how you get away with more and are forgiven baed on how talented you are.

Haven't seen Leaving Neverland but always been sceptical about the Michael Jackson stuff. A lot of contradictory claims have been made. However, I don't know enough about abuse and the psychological effects it can have and it is hard to say anything more than "I don't know." That being said inviting children over to his mansion to hang out with even in the most innocent sense was incredibly unfortunate and inappropriate. Those kind of relationships are toxic and too much for kids to handle. There were so many people around that could have stopped anything before kids even set foot on the ranch and didn't.
 

BlakeyNoFlakey

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#11
The question around his music is an interesting one (haven't watched the doco yet); he was clearly ****** up, everyone knew he had massive issues...

But he was still an incredible artist - so does that get eradicated from society now?
On the last Real Time with Bill Maher, Bill said he would still listen to Jackson's music despite knowing the truth and cited other examples of famous people in the past who were also pedophiles. He said he can separate their talent from their sins. But I feel differently. When the man uses his fame and talent to groom children for sex (Jackson got these kids to perform with him etc) I can't separate the two in this case. But what each individual decides in this case is up to them.
 

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BlakeyNoFlakey

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#12
Elvis married a 14 year old. I think Jim Jeffries has a bit about how you get away with more and are forgiven baed on how talented you are.

Haven't seen Leaving Neverland but always been sceptical about the Michael Jackson stuff. A lot of contradictory claims have been made. However, I don't know enough about abuse and the psychological effects it can have and it is hard to say anything more than "I don't know." That being said inviting children over to his mansion to hang out with even in the most innocent sense was incredibly unfortunate and inappropriate. Those kind of relationships are toxic and too much for kids to handle. There were so many people around that could have stopped anything before kids even set foot on the ranch and didn't.
I suggest you watch the documentary before you make comments because it really explains just how Jackson was able to seduce whole families with his fame and wealth, which led him to get access to his victims. The claim that Jackson just loved children and his relationships with them was innocent and childlike is one of those myths Jackson helped create to cover his crimes. In fact, Jackson groomed the world to accept his association with children, then openly displayed his boyfriends whenever he went anywhere. He really hid it in plain site because fans of the superstar couldn't believe sweet innocent Michael jackson would hurt anyone. The man was a rock spider, as evil as they come IMO.
 

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#13
I suggest you watch the documentary before you make comments because it really explains just how Jackson was able to seduce whole families with his fame and wealth, which led him to get access to his victims. The claim that Jackson just loved children and his relationships with them was innocent and childlike is one of those myths Jackson helped create to cover his crimes. In fact, Jackson groomed the world to accept his association with children, then openly displayed his boyfriends whenever he went anywhere. He really hid it in plain site because fans of the superstar couldn't believe sweet innocent Michael jackson would hurt anyone. The man was a rock spider, as evil as they come IMO.
Fair enough. More just speaking based on my general knowledge of this issue from when things originally blew up.
 

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The MJ fans going into bat for Jackson are like nothing you've ever seen.

They simply will not question how a 44yr old man could continue to invite young boys into his bed, despite having to pay off several over allegations of molestation.

I've thought this since the 90's, but you do not pay $25 million to a family(Jordan Chandler, 1993) if you're innocent.....and then continue to groom and sleep with little boys.

Jackson is a monster, who hid in plain sight.
 

BlakeyNoFlakey

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#15
They simply will not question how a 44yr old man could continue to invite young boys into his bed, despite having to pay off several over allegations of molestation.
IIRC, the Robsons said they told people that those initial court cases were just about trying to extort money out of Jackson and he was innocent (remember they were civil cases). Jackson claimed he paid those families out because he didn't want the children involved to suffer through a court case. Such a convincing liar. But when you think about it, if someone accused you of such a crime and you were innocent, you'd fight it tooth and nail in the courts wouldn't you? I guess I'm just over sensitive to this issue being from Ballarat and knowing many people who have been sexually abused as kids. But the lies pedophiles use to cover their crimes cannot be underestimated.
 

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#19
Whilst not a two sided story and explained as such by the documentary creator in order to focus on the pain of the victims, the insight into Jackson's world and how he groomed parent and child alike is beyond forgiveness.
 

BlakeyNoFlakey

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#20
That there was a lot of children that were victims of sexual abuse by the Catholic Church.
Spotlight was based in Baltimore IIRC. But the Royal Commision into Institutional Child Abuse indicated the number in Ballarat abused by Catholic priests was very high, and there's probably many victims who haven't come forward too. A lot of these ppl are around my age now and it amazes me how many I know who have told me a priest or monk abused them up here. I didn't grow up in Ballarat so it never happened to me.
 

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#21
I just think the movie will confirm your bias whichever way it stood before the film.

I will say this, a quote from one of his accusers in the film when MJ died

"Michael Jackson changed the world and, more personally, my life forever. He is the reason I dance, the reason I make music, and one of the main reasons I believe in the pure goodness of humankind. He has been a close friend of mine for 20 years. His music, his movement, his personal words of inspiration and encouragement and his unconditional love will live inside of me forever. I will miss him immeasurably, but I know that he is now at peace and enchanting the heavens with a melody and a moonwalk. "

What happened since his death to make Wade Robson change his tune?

  • In 2011, Robson approached John Branca, co-executor of the Michael Jackson Estate, about directing the new Michael Jackson/Cirque du Soleil production, ONE. Robson admitted he wanted the job “badly,” but the Estate ultimately chose someone else for the position.
  • In 2012, Robson had a nervous breakdown, triggered, he said, by an obsessive quest for success. His career, in his own words, began to “crumble.”
  • That same year, with Robson’s career, finances, and marriage in peril, he began shopping a book that claimed he was sexually abused by Michael Jackson. No publisher picked it up.
  • In 2013, Robson filed a $1.5 billion dollar civil lawsuit/creditor’s claim, along with James Safechuck, who also spent time with Jackson in the late ‘80s. Safechuck claimed he only realized he may have been abused when Robson filed his lawsuit. That lawsuit was dismissed by a probate court in 2017.
  • In 2019, the Sundance Film Festival premiered a documentary based entirely on Robson and Safechuck's allegations. While the documentary is obviously emotionally disturbing given the content, it presents no new evidence or witnesses. The film's director, Dan Reed, acknowledged not wanting to interview other key figures because it might complicate or compromise the story he wanted to tell.

I'll always think MJ was an incredibly talented freak who had a ****** up upbringing but it always seems like the people making these claims are experiencing financial difficulties. Personally, I don't know if he was or wasn't...but given that the general feeling around is that he was, why the **** would you send your kids there?
 

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#22
Spotlight was based in Baltimore IIRC. But the Royal Commision into Institutional Child Abuse indicated the number in Ballarat abused by Catholic priests was very high, and there's probably many victims who haven't come forward too. A lot of these ppl are around my age now and it amazes me how many I know who have told me a priest or monk abused them up here. I didn't grow up in Ballarat so it never happened to me.
At the end of the movie in the closing credits, it mentions that Ballarat had children that were abused by the Catholic Church.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the...ght-that-had-me-in-tears-20160226-gn47hv.html
 

Bostonian

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#23
There's a cover band in Geelong called the Glitter Gang who opens their shows with Gary Glitter's Rock and Roll. Been around for 20+ years and everyone sings along to the song and no ****s are given.

They were even on ABC's Exhumed a few years back.
 

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#24
I just think the movie will confirm your bias whichever way it stood before the film.

I will say this, a quote from one of his accusers in the film when MJ died

"Michael Jackson changed the world and, more personally, my life forever. He is the reason I dance, the reason I make music, and one of the main reasons I believe in the pure goodness of humankind. He has been a close friend of mine for 20 years. His music, his movement, his personal words of inspiration and encouragement and his unconditional love will live inside of me forever. I will miss him immeasurably, but I know that he is now at peace and enchanting the heavens with a melody and a moonwalk. "

What happened since his death to make Wade Robson change his tune?

  • In 2011, Robson approached John Branca, co-executor of the Michael Jackson Estate, about directing the new Michael Jackson/Cirque du Soleil production, ONE. Robson admitted he wanted the job “badly,” but the Estate ultimately chose someone else for the position.
  • In 2012, Robson had a nervous breakdown, triggered, he said, by an obsessive quest for success. His career, in his own words, began to “crumble.”
  • That same year, with Robson’s career, finances, and marriage in peril, he began shopping a book that claimed he was sexually abused by Michael Jackson. No publisher picked it up.
  • In 2013, Robson filed a $1.5 billion dollar civil lawsuit/creditor’s claim, along with James Safechuck, who also spent time with Jackson in the late ‘80s. Safechuck claimed he only realized he may have been abused when Robson filed his lawsuit. That lawsuit was dismissed by a probate court in 2017.
  • In 2019, the Sundance Film Festival premiered a documentary based entirely on Robson and Safechuck's allegations. While the documentary is obviously emotionally disturbing given the content, it presents no new evidence or witnesses. The film's director, Dan Reed, acknowledged not wanting to interview other key figures because it might complicate or compromise the story he wanted to tell.

I'll always think MJ was an incredibly talented freak who had a ****** up upbringing but it always seems like the people making these claims are experiencing financial difficulties. Personally, I don't know if he was or wasn't...but given that the general feeling around is that he was, why the **** would you send your kids there?
All of that can be 100% true AND Jackson could still have molested him. He was groomed from the age of 7.

Paedophiles buy the ‘love’, loyalty and silence of their victims. Not all those who rape and molest children fall into the category of ‘paedophile’ - some are sadistic sexual deviants. Then there are those who though they know what they are doing is wrong believe themselves to be in loving relationships with their victims. That’s how they convince children that there’s nothing wrong with what they are doing and that they are complicit. It’s confusing and it ****s the victims up for years. Maintaining healthy adult relationships for them must be almost impossible.
 

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#25
I felt sick in the stomach watching this
Nothing new in it.....like we always new about some kids claiming abuse
I remember driving 2 the shops in Franga the day he died and cars were pumping his tunes
he was probably the last of the super starz that like operah said " don't shine the same way now "
i wont stop listeing 2 the moozic though
 
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