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I recall a game this year where they put up a graphic sometime in the 3Q of our main targets for F50 entries.
Sam Gray was leading by a reasonable margin.
Yes, Dixon was playing.
I know this because he was leading the Inside 50s stat.
If Jack Watts does nothing else but fix this we will win the next 5 premierships.
lol - just seen that subaru quoted the last sentence of my post on the Crows board as a serious comment.
 
Have you watched footage of Netherlands v Uruguay in the 1974 World Cup?

---

Janus


Pretty sure 1974 was the first time they implemented counter pressing in the Dutch national team.

The more I read about it, the more I’m convinced that this is either where Hinkley’s head is at or where it should be at. For mine, he wants us to play like Klopp’s BVB did instead of how Guardiola’s Baracelona did:

“This also shows in how the ball is lost; Guardiola’s team often lose it with ground passes in high zones with many players around it and immediately pass back into open deeper space whereas BVB tried to commence their action with an immediate penetrating pass forward or a dribble and often purposefully induced counterpress by a long ball forward.”

Get it forward quickly and then lock the ball in and counter press to overwhelm. It was probably this reasoning as to why Trengove was persisted with as a defensive key forward - basically transplanting the structure of defensive 50 into forward 50. But Trengove was just too slow to effectively counter press and it cost us in the games where opposition sides could exploit that.

The great thing about an effective counter press is that it neutralises the very thing which is the enemy of a standard high press - the counter attack - because it actually invites the opposition to counter before pressing rather than pressing from the outset and conceding easy goals over the back. The problem is that our players have been reluctant to commit fully to getting up the ground in attack and instead sit back in the default neutral position and counter press from that point, unless we are playing against an opposition we aren’t worried about.

This is why the style looks boring. It lacks the quick and precise movement of a successful counter, instead relying on long balls with no direction because the player running with the ball doesn’t have the support or skill required to deliver it properly.

A successful counterpress is like a mirror maze - no matter what part of the ground the opposition is in, or the players they are facing, the method is exactly the same - lead them into blind turn alleys to generate turnovers until their only option is to kick long to the waiting intercept markers.
 

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.... the more I’m convinced that this is either where Hinkley’s head is at or where it should be at. For mine, he wants us to play like Klopp’s BVB did instead of how Guardiola’s Baracelona did:

“......Guardiola’s team often lose it with ground passes in high zones with many players around it and immediately pass back into open deeper space whereas BVB tried to commence their action with an immediate penetrating pass forward or a dribble and often purposefully induced counterpress by a long ball forward.”
.....
Get it forward quickly and then lock the ball in and counter press to overwhelm.
The great thing about an effective counter press is that it neutralises the very thing which is the enemy of a standard high press - the counter attack - because it actually invites the opposition to counter before pressing rather than pressing from the outset and conceding easy goals over the back. The problem is that our players have been reluctant to commit fully to getting up the ground in attack and instead sit back in the default neutral position and counter press from that point, unless we are playing against an opposition we aren’t worried about.
.....
A successful counterpress is like a mirror maze - no matter what part of the ground the opposition is in .......... - lead them into blind turn alleys to generate turnovers until their only option is to kick long to the waiting intercept markers.

Whilst the tactics, size of field, number of players, etc differs in the two codes, there may be some similarities that could be used/adapted to suit Aussie Rules.

We seemed to correct as the season went on and conceded less "Joe the Goose's" over the top (think we may have always had one guy waiting behind the play in defence after the initial issues).

Sounds like the timing of when to begin the press is the issue our guys have been struggling with? Correct that (with a bit of tweaking), and the game plan may start to come together more. We appear at times to be like a disjointed jigsaw puzzle.
 
All tactics are fundamentally the same when the objective is to move the ball from one end of the field to the other to score while the opponent tries to stop it from happening.

See, I don’t think having a player deep is correcting the problem at all. I think it’s merely treating the symptom, which is why I’ve said that it was only at the start of the year that we played the system properly.

If we are counter pressing properly, the ball won’t get inside our defensive 50 quick enough to concede Joe the Goose goals. But it requires everyone being on the same page and everyone playing their role. People point to the West Coast elimination final, but that was actually more a case of losing centre clearances when it’s impossible due to the rules (only four in the square) to set up a counter press. Which is why getting a clearance machine like Rockliff helps enormously.
 
Those Dutchies must have been watching me play Fifa on the PS4...never seen so many slide tackles in a real game, never mind a 2min 40 odd second highlights clip.

The amazing is that the Uruguayans were out-tackled! :)
 
All tactics are fundamentally the same when the objective is to move the ball from one end of the field to the other to score while the opponent tries to stop it from happening.

See, I don’t think having a player deep is correcting the problem at all. I think it’s merely treating the symptom, which is why I’ve said that it was only at the start of the year that we played the system properly.

If we are counter pressing properly, the ball won’t get inside our defensive 50 quick enough to concede Joe the Goose goals. But it requires everyone being on the same page and everyone playing their role. People point to the West Coast elimination final, but that was actually more a case of losing centre clearances when it’s impossible due to the rules (only four in the square) to set up a counter press. Which is why getting a clearance machine like Rockliff helps enormously.

Yeah, it's funny because the two West Coast games at AO were great examples of our game style working really well, despite being two of our most frustrating losses for the year. It appeared as though we dominated both games - we were able to lock the ball in our front half very easily, we just weren't able to get past their defensive wall and translate our territorial dominance to the scoreboard.

That's why I think we are close but just a few finishing touches away from being a really good team. Better set shot goal kicking, better decision making going inside 50. Defensively and structurally we are great, it's just that cream on the cake that we are missing.
 
Yeah, it's funny because the two West Coast games at AO were great examples of our game style working really well, despite being two of our most frustrating losses for the year. It appeared as though we dominated both games - we were able to lock the ball in our front half very easily, we just weren't able to get past their defensive wall and translate our territorial dominance to the scoreboard.

That's why I think we are close but just a few finishing touches away from being a really good team. Better set shot goal kicking, better decision making going inside 50. Defensively and structurally we are great, it's just that cream on the cake that we are missing.

A diamond with a massive inclusion is worthless because it’s not diamonds that are rare, but ones without flaws.

With the Eagles, I think our defence dropping back a tiny bit will invite attacking play and draw teams out of their defensive structure. In the book Shogun, Toranaga says that there is no way to attack his rival Ishido so long as he stays in Osaka Castle, because the way the castle was setup meant you could stay behind the walls indefinitely.

So instead, he drew Ishido out by appearing weak and despondent, using assassins as a way to show desperation, and then striking hard and fast when complacency set in.

In the same manner, laying siege to an opposition defensive structure isn’t the way to win. We need to be getting the ball back at forward of centre - drawing them out just enough that there is space behind for our forwards to work in. But that requires trust that the system is going to work.

Hinkley can sell his dream to any player in the league, because what he’s offering is the chance at football immortality - a revolution in style that has never been seen before.
 
Kicking from afar would also help spreading the defense. Kicking to the pocket would it, too. The key is scoring goals...

It's all related. The system is fine, the execution is flawed.

It's why I wanted Watts most of all, because if anyone has an elite kick for delivering inside 50, it's Watts. And if they double team him...it means that Dixon will be free...and if they double team him...well, there's only so many players on the field.
 
In Phil Jackson's Eleven Rings, he talks about the five stages of tribal culture:

screen-shot-2012-06-28-at-12-21-22-pm.png


We are trying to grow into a Stage 5 Team rather than a Stage 4 Stable Partnership. The truly great sides - Geelong, Hawthorn - aspire not to beat the competition, but to make their mark on history.

People say 'Why can't we be more like (insert flavour of the month team here)'. I say 'Why would we want to limit ourselves to something so mundane?'

This is why I'm always saying that if we get our system right, we'll not only be unbeatable, but it will be something you've never seen before. Why be the 22% when you can be the 2% and truly make a difference?

It's also why when Ken speaks to players, he's always talking about their potential and what they bring to the table, rather than focusing on their weaknesses. It's why I think he's a great coach. We are building something special.

That's why the Members Convention is a vital tool - the members are part of the team just as much as any player, and we need to believe that we are going to make an impact on the world, not just win a flag. That means China. That means our indigenous programs. That means the vision and strategic direction for the club.

It's not about Port Adelaide winning a flag. It's about Port Adelaide changing the game with how we win the flag. Whether we actually do change the game or not is irrelevant - it's the kind of mentality truly successful sides espouse. It's about making a difference. It doesn't start in 2018. It started back in 2013. But we move from Stage 4 to Stage 5 in 2018.

In 2018, we are the greatest football team in the world. That's the mentality we need to have - from the coaching staff to the players to the fans in the stands.

This is our time. Success is well within our reach.

All we have to do is take it.
 
In Phil Jackson's Eleven Rings, he talks about the five stages of tribal culture:

screen-shot-2012-06-28-at-12-21-22-pm.png


We are trying to grow into a Stage 5 Team rather than a Stage 4 Stable Partnership. The truly great sides - Geelong, Hawthorn - aspire not to beat the competition, but to make their mark on history.

People say 'Why can't we be more like (insert flavour of the month team here)'. I say 'Why would we want to limit ourselves to something so mundane?'

This is why I'm always saying that if we get our system right, we'll not only be unbeatable, but it will be something you've never seen before. Why be the 22% when you can be the 2% and truly make a difference?

It's also why when Ken speaks to players, he's always talking about their potential and what they bring to the table, rather than focusing on their weaknesses. It's why I think he's a great coach. We are building something special.

That's why the Members Convention is a vital tool - the members are part of the team just as much as any player, and we need to believe that we are going to make an impact on the world, not just win a flag. That means China. That means our indigenous programs. That means the vision and strategic direction for the club.

It's not about Port Adelaide winning a flag. It's about Port Adelaide changing the game with how we win the flag. Whether we actually do change the game or not is irrelevant - it's the kind of mentality truly successful sides espouse. It's about making a difference. It doesn't start in 2018. It started back in 2013. But we move from Stage 4 to Stage 5 in 2018.

In 2018, we are the greatest football team in the world. That's the mentality we need to have - from the coaching staff to the players to the fans in the stands.

This is our time. Success is well within our reach.

All we have to do is take it.

You made me remember of this:
From Sunday to Wednesday, we are so good, that we could beat Real Madrid, New England Patriots, Sydney Rooster, Cantembury Cruzaders, in their own codes, let alone our opponent in Aussie Footy proper. Best Football team in the world!

From Thursday to Saturday, the optimism disappears. Everybody melts: we can't kick straight, our defenders can't run, tackle, nor mark, Hinkley is an imbecile, our opponents are flawless, and so on.

Same script, week in, week out, since I start following Big Footy.
 

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Take away 1 back and put him as a defensive follower, and that’s pretty much it from a defensive point of view. We definitely play one deep defender with two players screening in front of him - hence why against Essendon Hombsch was caught out one on one so many times with no one around him.

It is pure speculation, because I can't actually watch the games.

So, the key would be the 5 sections of the field, with the team occupying 3 of them every time, which, depending on where the ball is and from where it has come.

Still, I may have only talked vertically, on the way the team moves up-down the corridor (as a 5-8-5):

1 Back
4 HB

3 D.Foll.
1 R.Wing.
1 L.Wing.
3 O.Foll.

4 HF
1 F

The goal would be making the team look like as if it plays in a 8-8-8 formation. With the followers joining the D or the O depending on where the ball is.

However, there seems to be two ways of seeing the same formation. There would be a horizontal perspective as well. The mid sections (2, 3, 4) must be divided into corridor and pockets. If the ball goes wide, you want the pressure to go on. There can be no relief.

Horizontally, the structure would look like as 3-12-3:

1 B
2 HB

3 D.Foll.
3 R.Wing.
3 L.Wing.
3 O.Foll.

2 HF
1 F

All wide halfs would be wingers as well (think Brazilian fullbacks in soccer). Moreover, the Followers would also move like windshield wipers.

So, depending on where the ball is horizontally, the players responsible for applying the pressure change, and the team rotates accordingly to adjust to the circumstance. Ultimatelly, the team should cause the impression of playing under a 8-12-8 structure!

In the end, I believe the positions would be something like this:

— DEFENSE
Backs (3)
1 Back
2 Halfbacks

Flanks (2)
2 Def. Flanks

Followers (3)
2 Def. Guards
1 Def. Center/Ruck

— MIDFIELD
Followers (6)
2 Def. Guards
1 Def. Center/Ruck
1 Off. Center/Ruck
2 Off. Guards

Wides/Wingers (6)
2 Widebacks/Def. Wingers
1 R. Winger
1 L. Winger
2 Wide-forwards/Off. Wingers

— OFFENSE
Followers (3)
2 Off. Guards
1 Off. Center/Ruck

Wides/Wingers (2)
2 Widebacks/Off. Wingers

Forwards (3)
2 Half-forwards
1 Forward

There would be 8 specialist positions: backs, wingers, forwards; and 10 transitional positions: wides, followers. Thus, the simplest way of writing the structure would be 3-5-2-5-3: 3 Def; 5 Def/Mid; 2 Mid; 5 Mid/Off; 3 Off.

P.S.: Does it make any sense? If it does, who would be the players in our squad most fitting for each role?
 
Last edited:
It is pure speculation, because I can't actually watch the games.

So, the key would be the 5 sections of the field, with the team occupying 3 of them every time, which, depending on where the ball is and from where it has come.

Still, I may have only talked vertically, on the way the team moves up-down the corridor (as a 5-8-5):

1 Back
4 HB

3 D.Foll.
1 R.Wing.
1 L.Wing.
3 O.Foll.

4 HF
1 F

The goal would be making the team look like as if it plays in a 8-8-8 formation. With the followers joining the D or the O depending on where the ball is.

However, there seems to be two ways of seeing the same formation. There would be a horizontal perspective as well. The mid sections (2, 3, 4) must be divided into corridor and pockets. If the ball goes wide, you want the pressure to go on. There can be no relief.

Horizontally, the structure would look like as 3-12-3:

1 B
2 HB

3 D.Foll.
3 R.Wing.
3 L.Wing.
3 O.Foll.

2 HF
1 F

All wide halfs would be wingers as well (think Brazilian fullbacks in soccer). Moreover, the Followers would also move like windshield wipers.

So, depending on where the ball is horizontally, the players responsible for applying the pressure change, and the team rotates accordingly to adjust to the circumstance. Ultimatelly, the team should cause the impression of playing under a 8-12-8 structure!

In the end, I believe the positions would be something like this:

— DEFENSE
Backs (3)
1 Back
2 Halfbacks

Wides/Wingers (2)
2 Widebacks/Def. Wingers

Followers (3)
2 Def. Guards
1 Def. Center/Ruck

— MIDFIELD
Followers (6)
2 Def. Guards
1 Def. Center/Ruck
1 Off. Center/Ruck
2 Off. Guards

Wides/Wingers (6)
2 Widebacks/Def. Wingers
1 R. Winger
1 L. Winger
2 Wide-forwards/Off. Wingers

— OFFENSE
Followers (3)
2 Off. Guards
1 Off. Center/Ruck

Wides/Wingers (2)
2 Widebacks/Off. Wingers

Forwards (3)
2 Half-forwards
1 Forward

There would be 8 specialist positions: backs, wingers, forwards; and 10 transitional positions: wides, followers.

P.S.: Does it make any sense? If it does, who would be the players in our squad most fitting for each role?

I've just re-read the whole thread. The image on my mind haven't change at all.
 
Based on what I have been taking from this thread and others, here my first attempt of fielding a Best-XVIII. Please, feel free to point all the nonsenses (even if only a few at a time).

*Structure:

----------B--------- (D)
------HB--HB------
---WB-------WB--- (D/M)
-----DG----DG-----
---------DC---------
-W---------------W- (M)
---------OC--------- (M/O)
-----OG----OG-----
---WF--------WF---
------HF---HF------ (O)
----------F----------

*Team:

D: Jonas, Hombsch, and Clurey;

D/M: Howard, Ebert, Polec, Powell-Pepper, and Houston;

M: Motlop, and Boak;

M/O: Westhoff, Wingard, Ryder, Rockliff, and Wines;

O: Watts, Dixon, and R. Gray.

= By position:
- Back: Hombsch
- Halfbacks: Jonas, Clurey
- Widebacks: Howard, Houston

- Def. Guards: Ebert, Powell-Pepper
- Def. Center: Polec
- Wingers: Motlop, Boak
- Off. Center: Ryder (R)
- Off. Guards: Wingard, Rockliff

- Wide-Forwards: Westhoff, Wines
- Half-forwards: Watts, RGray
- Forward: Dixon

P.S.: Next — how the pieces would move
 
Last edited:
Here you go GremioPower I have posted your diagram. You probably didn't wait long enough for it to fully load up and that's why it only came up as an image link.

446612_fed0c028dda69e566e8674fcb9066143.JPG
 

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Here you go GremioPower I have posted your diagram. You probably didn't wait long enough for it to fully load up and that's why it only came up as an image link.

446612_fed0c028dda69e566e8674fcb9066143.JPG

Thanks! I believe the issue was the phone. I have no problem when I post through the computer.

My imagination is fertile (probably, because it is full of shit! :-D ), and Janus' posts made me "see" the players moving around, pressuring the opposition, forcing errors, getting the ball, and transitioning forward — in an orderly way, even though it may look chaotic.

Now, I'm trying to understand what I have "seen." It is all about finding the references around which the players would move. The diagram would provide one of them.

The others references would be the ball and the fixed positions — forwards, wings, and backs (even though, in theory, players could switch roles during the game).
 
I think you guys are over analyzing our problems.... a majority of time, we played dumb football when it came down to decisions, brain fades

Structure of a team is a week to week basis, the other team doesn't always shape up to suit our structure every time.

WE need to become better when it comes down to being choreographed to be well drilled in it against any side in the comp. Perhaps this is a part of a structure, however a structure in these terms would mean that any player at any time of the game would structure up to a position to allow for the choreographed maneuver to be achieved no matter how tall or short you are.

if the players are good enough......we can control to ball from end to end with out the team getting a sniff...

Skills is another problem, our turnovers in 2017...... is a classic example of how woeful we were.

Possession is 9/10th's of the law. Do this in a game, your going to be hard to beat..... Structure is a part of it, only 10% of it. Rest is pure skills.

The Dutch in 1974 was a great mesmerizing team, they introduced this pressing football play at a high risk, which at the time no other team knew how to defend or attack against it. You couldn't do that today. Offside in those days was different, which is what the Dutch did to empty the back line, they squashed the game into the middle. Uruguay didn't know how to play against this form of attack/defence. West Germany did their homework in the final.
 
I think you guys are over analyzing our problems.... a majority of time, we played dumb football when it came down to decisions, brain fades

Structure of a team is a week to week basis, the other team doesn't always shape up to suit our structure every time.

WE need to become better when it comes down to being choreographed to be well drilled in it against any side in the comp. Perhaps this is a part of a structure, however a structure in these terms would mean that any player at any time of the game would structure up to a position to allow for the choreographed maneuver to be achieved no matter how tall or short you are.

if the players are good enough......we can control to ball from end to end with out the team getting a sniff...

Skills is another problem, our turnovers in 2017...... is a classic example of how woeful we were.

Possession is 9/10th's of the law. Do this in a game, your going to be hard to beat..... Structure is a part of it, only 10% of it. Rest is pure skills.

The Dutch in 1974 was a great mesmerizing team, they introduced this pressing football play at a high risk, which at the time no other team knew how to defend or attack against it. You couldn't do that today. Offside in those days was different, which is what the Dutch did to empty the back line, they squashed the game into the middle. Uruguay didn't know how to play against this form of attack/defence. West Germany did their homework in the final.

It was our offense who mostly have let us down past season. We all agree. We would also often "turn off" defensively, which was a costly issue throughout the season. We also agree on that.

We have brought people in and send others out in order to address that. Considering only the new players, we should improve from what we were past season. We all concur on that too.

So, what you called "over-analysis" goes beyond those points. We are talking about "what next." The 1974 Dutch team is ONE of the paradigms we are exploring here. We have quoted the 90's Milan, Guardiola's Barcelona, and current Borussia Dortmund. We have mentioned the 90's Chicago Bulls, the 2000's Phoenix Suns, and current Golden State Warriors.

Port Adelaide is moving towards a kind of football. The questions here are "what is it?" and "how are we getting there?" At least, that is how I understand this thread.

Merry Christmas!
 
Last edited:
It was our offense who mostly have let us down past season. We all agree. We would also often "turn off" defensively, which was a costly issue throughout the season. We also agree on that.

We have brought people in and send others out in order to address that. Considering only the new players, we should improve from what we were past season. We all concur on that too.

So, what you called "over-analysis" goes beyond those points. We are talking about "what next." The 1974 Dutch team is ONE of the paradigms we are exploring here. We have quoted the 90's Milan, Guardiola's Barcelona, and current Borussia Dortmund. We have mentioned the 90's Chicago Bulls, the 2000's Phoenix Suns, and current Golden State Warriors.

Port Adelaide is moving towards a kind of football. The questions here are "what is it?" and "how are we getting there?" At least, that is how I understand this thread.

Merry Christmas!

Buona Natale to you too....

Who the hell knows how we structure up to play, one can make a general assumption of the next kind of football however I dont think its going to change much other than who's on the end of it. What it will bring with these players we have invested in, is flexibility to move the pawns around. It only takes one player to have an off day/injured completely ruin your structure, not unless you have back up.....depth..... which is what these teams you quoted above have all in common.

I thought I would put my structure up...

= By position:
- Back: Westhoff
- Halfbacks: Jonas, Hombsch
- Widebacks: Clurey , Houston

- Def. Guards: Ebert, Powell-Pepper
- Def. Center: Wines
- Wingers: Motlop, Boak
- Off. Center: Ryder (R)
- Off. Guards: Watts, Rockliff

- Wide-Forwards: Hartlett, Polec
- Half-forwards: Wingard, RGray
- Forward: Dixon

inter: Howard, DBJ, Pittard, Neade (L. Thomas)
 
Buona Natale to you too....

Who the hell knows how we structure up to play, one can make a general assumption of the next kind of football however I dont think its going to change much other than who's on the end of it. What it will bring with these players we have invested in, is flexibility to move the pawns around. It only takes one player to have an off day/injured completely ruin your structure, not unless you have back up.....depth..... which is what these teams you quoted above have all in common.

I thought I would put my structure up...

= By position:
- Back: Westhoff
- Halfbacks: Jonas, Hombsch
- Widebacks: Clurey , Houston

- Def. Guards: Ebert, Powell-Pepper
- Def. Center: Wines
- Wingers: Motlop, Boak
- Off. Center: Ryder (R)
- Off. Guards: Watts, Rockliff

- Wide-Forwards: Hartlett, Polec
- Half-forwards: Wingard, RGray
- Forward: Dixon

inter: Howard, DBJ, Pittard, Neade (L. Thomas)

Conversation here is academic, mostly. Still, it helps increasing our own understading of the game.

I would only disagree with you in an important point. The idea we are working here is supposed to help us overcome losing players due injury.

If players are able to grasp how the system works, even though the team would certainly suffer from the loss of talent, it should remain competitive.

The key is the way we would defend — which is supposed to make it difficult for the opposition to play. If they can't play, we have a shot at winning.
 
In Phil Jackson's Eleven Rings, he talks about the five stages of tribal culture:

screen-shot-2012-06-28-at-12-21-22-pm.png


We are trying to grow into a Stage 5 Team rather than a Stage 4 Stable Partnership. The truly great sides - Geelong, Hawthorn - aspire not to beat the competition, but to make their mark on history.

People say 'Why can't we be more like (insert flavour of the month team here)'. I say 'Why would we want to limit ourselves to something so mundane?'

This is why I'm always saying that if we get our system right, we'll not only be unbeatable, but it will be something you've never seen before. Why be the 22% when you can be the 2% and truly make a difference?

It's also why when Ken speaks to players, he's always talking about their potential and what they bring to the table, rather than focusing on their weaknesses. It's why I think he's a great coach. We are building something special.

That's why the Members Convention is a vital tool - the members are part of the team just as much as any player, and we need to believe that we are going to make an impact on the world, not just win a flag. That means China. That means our indigenous programs. That means the vision and strategic direction for the club.

It's not about Port Adelaide winning a flag. It's about Port Adelaide changing the game with how we win the flag. Whether we actually do change the game or not is irrelevant - it's the kind of mentality truly successful sides espouse. It's about making a difference. It doesn't start in 2018. It started back in 2013. But we move from Stage 4 to Stage 5 in 2018.

In 2018, we are the greatest football team in the world. That's the mentality we need to have - from the coaching staff to the players to the fans in the stands.

This is our time. Success is well within our reach.

All we have to do is take it.
I'm feeling very confident about 2018 despite not being a fan of Kens (football tactics only) and generally being conservative about Ports chances. Just have a good feeling.
 

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