Legs feed the wolf

[Interstater]

My greatest concern is if what we do doesn't work, we manoeuvre like a houseboat.

Having a good Plan A and then executing it is great, it won the Crows an April premiership last year.
How quickly we tweak the plans in-game once opposition teams work us out will be the real test.
That's where I don't have the faith, too many times last year we appeared to persist with what wasn't working for way too long.

Our end of year recruiting is a double edged sword, we have the talent, there are no excuses for the coaches.
And coaching isn't just gameday tactics, anyone that watched the channel 7 Sunday morning football show after the grand final and listened to Bachar Houli would have had a clear insight into that.


Skip to 20:00

Looking forward to watching how it plays out from my fancy Gold section seats this year.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year you lot.

 

[GremioPower]

We need to have a variety of types of attacking threats up forward, including that player who is a threat from anywhere within 70m of goal. It potentially spreads the opposition's defence out, creating space for our players to move the ball through. I don't care whether it's Hartlett or McKenzie we use as that attacking threat - I just want one of them between the centre circle and the forward 50 arc. And for the love of god don't let Jasper do it.

This thread is more appropriated to discuss your point, MadFan23 . I believe we are setting both strategy and structure that allows what you are asking. It could be wishful thinking, but there seems to be signs of that as well. We have been talking about them here.

 

[Tibbs]

This thread is more appropriated to discuss your point, MadFan23 . I believe we are setting both strategy and structure that allows what you are asking. It could be wishful thinking, but there seems to be signs of that as well. We have been talking about them here.

Hi Gremio. You fascinate me. A random dude from Argentina throwing himself into the Australian game, and becoming what must be one of the fastest 2000+ poster on Bigfooty. After one season, having quite a good understanding of the game ... Significantly better than 90% of Crows supporters, I might add! Well done mate ... Not an easy thing to do considering you dont get to experience the the footy "lust" in the same tactile way as those actually living here! How do you maintain the passion?

As a side point, I too have adopted this game. I am not native Australian. I was born and raised in rugby union-dominated South Africa. Played schoolboy rugby on the wing as a tall and skinny, but speedy, 17 y/o. But my love was for the roundball game, not supported in the school system there, so I joined a local soccer club, and played in my favorite position as a goalkeeper. I would practice for hours each day, with the dream of playing professionally one day. Then our family moved to Australia. Dreams shattered in an instant! In the early 70's, soccer in Australia was divided into, and controlled by European ethnic groups, and almost impossible to break into without either being in the system, or being of those origins. My last ever game I attended ended up in a massive brawl between the entire spectator group of Italians & Greeks, with flares fired, and full riot police to break it up. Game over!

So I was left with this "ridiculous" game of Aussie rules that all my new mates were playing, so it didnt take long for me to have a go & catch on. Living not far from Alberton, it was the Magpies I adopted, and fell in love with, cheering on, and being thrilled by, legends like Russell Ebert from the terraces. I still love the round-ball game, and enjoy having a kick with friends. I still love to watch a good Union test match, but what can I say ... Aussie Rules is the best game in the world! It's just the the rest of the world needs to catch on!

With another adoptee from Argentina, we are almost there!

 

[Tibbs]

Hi Gremio. You fascinate me. A random dude from Argentina throwing himself into the Australian game, and becoming what must be one of the fastest 2000+ poster on Bigfooty. After one season, having quite a good understanding of the game ... Significantly better than 90% of Crows supporters, I might add! Well done mate ... Not an easy thing to do considering you dont get to experience the the footy "lust" in the same tactile way as those actually living here! How do you maintain the passion?

As a side point, I too have adopted this game. I am not native Australian. I was born and raised in rugby union-dominated South Africa. Played schoolboy rugby on the wing as a tall and skinny, but speedy, 17 y/o. But my love was for the roundball game, not supported in the school system there, so I joined a local soccer club, and played in my favorite position as a goalkeeper. I would practice for hours each day, with the dream of playing professionally one day. Then our family moved to Australia. Dreams shattered in an instant! In the early 70's, soccer in Australia was divided into, and controlled by European ethnic groups, and almost impossible to break into without either being in the system, or being of those origins. My last ever game I attended ended up in a massive brawl between the entire spectator group of Italians & Greeks, with flares fired, and full riot police to break it up. Game over!

So I was left with this "ridiculous" game of Aussie rules that all my new mates were playing, so it didnt take long for me to have a go & catch on. Living not far from Alberton, it was the Magpies I adopted, and fell in love with, cheering on, and being thrilled by, legends like Russell Ebert from the terraces. I still love the round-ball game, and enjoy having a kick with friends. I still love to watch a good Union test match, but what can I say ... Aussie Rules is the best game in the world! It's just the the rest of the world needs to catch on!

With another adoptee from Argentina, we are almost there!

I might add -

Port Adelaide, the greatest team in the AFL! This coming from a neutral outsider who since arriving in this country has also lived for 10 years in Melbourne, the "Mecca" of the AFL. Port is hands-down, the most fascinating, organic club in the AFL, now slowly rising to the national position of greatness it deserves!

 

[GremioPower]

Hi Gremio. You fascinate me. A random dude from Argentina throwing himself into the Australian game, and becoming what must be one of the fastest 2000+ poster on Bigfooty. After one season, having quite a good understanding of the game ... Significantly better than 90% of Crows supporters, I might add! Well done mate ... Not an easy thing to do considering you dont get to experience the the footy "lust" in the same tactile way as those actually living here! How do you maintain the passion?

As a side point, I too have adopted this game. I am not native Australian. I was born and raised in rugby union-dominated South Africa. Played schoolboy rugby on the wing as a tall and skinny, but speedy, 17 y/o. But my love was for the roundball game, not supported in the school system there, so I joined a local soccer club, and played in my favorite position as a goalkeeper. I would practice for hours each day, with the dream of playing professionally one day. Then our family moved to Australia. Dreams shattered in an instant! In the early 70's, soccer in Australia was divided into, and controlled by European ethnic groups, and almost impossible to break into without either being in the system, or being of those origins. My last ever game I attended ended up in a massive brawl between the entire spectator group of Italians & Greeks, with flares fired, and full riot police to break it up. Game over!

So I was left with this "ridiculous" game of Aussie rules that all my new mates were playing, so it didnt take long for me to have a go & catch on. Living not far from Alberton, it was the Magpies I adopted, and fell in love with, cheering on, and being thrilled by, legends like Russell Ebert from the terraces. I still love the round-ball game, and enjoy having a kick with friends. I still love to watch a good Union test match, but what can I say ... Aussie Rules is the best game in the world! It's just the the rest of the world needs to catch on!

With another adoptee from Argentina, we are almost there!

Ok. I am, indeed, Gaucho. I can see Argentina from the window of my apartment. I am probably from the least Brazilian part of Brazil.

But I am still Brazilian!

 

[Tibbs]

Ok. I am, indeed, Gaucho. I can see Argentina from the window of my apartment. I am probably from the least Brazilian part of Brazil.

But I am still Brazilian!

LOL ... Forgive me! I knew that in the back of my mind, but a Freudian slip from always seeing the light blue & white colours on your Gremio Avatar.

My penance ... Write: Brazil is great! Brazil is great! Down with Argentina! x 1000 times!

 

[GremioPower]

Hi Gremio. You fascinate me. A random dude from Argentina throwing himself into the Australian game, and becoming what must be one of the fastest 2000+ poster on Bigfooty. After one season, having quite a good understanding of the game ... Significantly better than 90% of Crows supporters, I might add! Well done mate ... Not an easy thing to do considering you dont get to experience the the footy "lust" in the same tactile way as those actually living here! How do you maintain the passion?

As a side point, I too have adopted this game. I am not native Australian. I was born and raised in rugby union-dominated South Africa. Played schoolboy rugby on the wing as a tall and skinny, but speedy, 17 y/o. But my love was for the roundball game, not supported in the school system there, so I joined a local soccer club, and played in my favorite position as a goalkeeper. I would practice for hours each day, with the dream of playing professionally one day. Then our family moved to Australia. Dreams shattered in an instant! In the early 70's, soccer in Australia was divided into, and controlled by European ethnic groups, and almost impossible to break into without either being in the system, or being of those origins. My last ever game I attended ended up in a massive brawl between the entire spectator group of Italians & Greeks, with flares fired, and full riot police to break it up. Game over!

So I was left with this "ridiculous" game of Aussie rules that all my new mates were playing, so it didnt take long for me to have a go & catch on. Living not far from Alberton, it was the Magpies I adopted, and fell in love with, cheering on, and being thrilled by, legends like Russell Ebert from the terraces. I still love the round-ball game, and enjoy having a kick with friends. I still love to watch a good Union test match, but what can I say ... Aussie Rules is the best game in the world! It's just the the rest of the world needs to catch on!

With another adoptee from Argentina, we are almost there!

How do I keep the passion? It is like following any sport for me — and I follow baseball and American football, which are non-existent here. Besides, I always loved soccer, but it has never loved me back. I am AWFUL! So, not being used to footy wasn't a problem.

In many ways, your passion fuels mine, and I keep on going. It is like being blind sometimes. I "see" the game with my mind, rather than my eyes. So, it is hard to grasp it, but not impossible. I must trust on you a lot. Still, it seems that so far, so good.

 

[Janus]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Where the game is headed is a combination of the Richmond full press/small forward line that pushes up into the midfield combined with one or two target forwards that the runners can hit up of the Adelaide tall forward line. Think Hawkins with Ablett, Selwood and Dangerfield running through. That sort of style.

The premier will be the team that can successfully amalgamate both. There’s about 7 teams who can do it as of right now - Sydney, GWS (if Cameron loses his hard on for talls and plays a better balanced side), Melbourne, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Geelong and Essendon. Collingwood could but I’m not sure Moore is the answer - he’s more your roaming centre half IMO.

It’s gonna be a fun year

 

[GremioPower]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Where the game is headed is a combination of the Richmond full press/small forward line that pushes up into the midfield combined with one or two target forwards that the runners can hit up of the Adelaide tall forward line. Think Hawkins with Ablett, Selwood and Dangerfield running through. That sort of style.

The premier will be the team that can successfully amalgamate both. There’s about 7 teams who can do it as of right now - Sydney, GWS (if Cameron loses his hard on for talls and plays a better balanced side), Melbourne, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Geelong and Essendon. Collingwood could but I’m not sure Moore is the answer - he’s more your roaming centre half IMO.

It’s gonna be a fun year

It is interesting that despite AFL Grand Final being held always at the same ground, new stadia do not aim on having similar ground dimensions (at least, proportionally). Teams that do not play regularly at MCG would struggle adjusting to the circular field, one might imagine. Many times, this is not an issue because both grand-finalists share the disadvantage; but there will be times that it becomes an issue — like 2017. Why not go for a field that emulates the G?

 

[Andre]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Where the game is headed is a combination of the Richmond full press/small forward line that pushes up into the midfield combined with one or two target forwards that the runners can hit up of the Adelaide tall forward line. Think Hawkins with Ablett, Selwood and Dangerfield running through. That sort of style.

The premier will be the team that can successfully amalgamate both. There’s about 7 teams who can do it as of right now - Sydney, GWS (if Cameron loses his hard on for talls and plays a better balanced side), Melbourne, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Geelong and Essendon. Collingwood could but I’m not sure Moore is the answer - he’s more your roaming centre half IMO.

It’s gonna be a fun year

Isn’t the best then a combination of the two? Ie mobile talls as part of it, that can both out mark shorter opponents, but also provide defensive pressure as they aren’t lumbering KPF’s? I’d take 2 mobile talls, plus smalls over 3 traditional KPF’s, but Marshall is the prototypical athletic tall, Watts copped half his grief as he is that mobile tall and not the beast KPF, whilst Dixon is both a beast AND covers as much ground as many midfielders. We can play all three and get the best of both worlds. Sides either structure up small down back and lose out in the air or structure tall and get exposed by our talls being so mobile.

 

[Lagooner]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Where the game is headed is a combination of the Richmond full press/small forward line that pushes up into the midfield combined with one or two target forwards that the runners can hit up of the Adelaide tall forward line. Think Hawkins with Ablett, Selwood and Dangerfield running through. That sort of style.

The premier will be the team that can successfully amalgamate both. There’s about 7 teams who can do it as of right now - Sydney, GWS (if Cameron loses his hard on for talls and plays a better balanced side), Melbourne, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Geelong and Essendon. Collingwood could but I’m not sure Moore is the answer - he’s more your roaming centre half IMO.

It’s gonna be a fun year

Some good points in here Janus. Is an amalgamation of styles the answer though? If certain styles work better with particular variables (ground, weather, opposition etc) then wouldn’t an ability to swing between the two styles be more effective than a broad spectrum set and forget?

After all we need to play at least 12 games at AO, and win the vast majority of them, before we can even think about Grand Final day at the G. This hooks back in to REH’s home ground advantage thread a bit I guess. Maybe our style is part of the problem.

 

[TeeKray]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Where the game is headed is a combination of the Richmond full press/small forward line that pushes up into the midfield combined with one or two target forwards that the runners can hit up of the Adelaide tall forward line. Think Hawkins with Ablett, Selwood and Dangerfield running through. That sort of style.

The premier will be the team that can successfully amalgamate both. There’s about 7 teams who can do it as of right now - Sydney, GWS (if Cameron loses his hard on for talls and plays a better balanced side), Melbourne, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide, Geelong and Essendon. Collingwood could but I’m not sure Moore is the answer - he’s more your roaming centre half IMO.

It’s gonna be a fun year

Good post but I reckon some of this is cyclical. If you look back at the last 15 or so years of tactical evolution, new defensive mechanisms have been developed by coaches with inferior teams (eg Sydney under Roos, Collingwood under Malthouse, the Bulldogs/Richmond recently) looking to beat stronger, more skilful teams (eg Port under Williams, Geelong under Thompson, Hawthorn under Clarkson). Right now defence is on top with the forward press but it'll only be a matter of time before some smart cookie with a talented team finds a way to dismantle it. Until then, enjoy the ride.

 

[Janus]

Good post but I reckon some of this is cyclical. If you look back at the last 15 or so years of tactical evolution, new defensive mechanisms have been developed by coaches with inferior teams (eg Sydney under Roos, Collingwood under Malthouse, the Bulldogs/Richmond recently) looking to beat stronger, more skilful teams (eg Port under Williams, Geelong under Thompson, Hawthorn under Clarkson). Right now defence is on top with the forward press but it'll only be a matter of time before some smart cookie with a talented team finds a way to dismantle it. Until then, enjoy the ride.

Do they dismantle it...or just do it better because they’ve got a more talented side so they can do more than one thing at a time?

And the Richmond model (which we are attempting as well) is a full field press, not a forward press. Honestly, the only way to dismantle it is by playing the same way but adding the outside game of Adelaide, with quick ball movement. I guess you could drop players back and hope to score on pure counter, but against a side that has multiple scoring threats that becomes difficult.

What I believe in is flexibility and adaptability. Strategy is about move and counter move. Sometimes you’ve got to press the attack, sometimes you’ve got to defend. But the best defence is one that generates a counter attack, and the best attack is one where the defence is already in place.

It’s why I believe at AO you’ll find that Watts stays forward of centre a lot more than he would at the MCG. The gameplan needs to be fluid and not rigid, with the size of the ground increasing or decreasing the need for the forwards to drop down and help with pressure.

 

[Janus]

Isn’t the best then a combination of the two? Ie mobile talls as part of it, that can both out mark shorter opponents, but also provide defensive pressure as they aren’t lumbering KPF’s? I’d take 2 mobile talls, plus smalls over 3 traditional KPF’s, but Marshall is the prototypical athletic tall, Watts copped half his grief as he is that mobile tall and not the beast KPF, whilst Dixon is both a beast AND covers as much ground as many midfielders. We can play all three and get the best of both worlds. Sides either structure up small down back and lose out in the air or structure tall and get exposed by our talls being so mobile.

The only problem with playing all three is that you need Marshall to have the ability to replicate what a small can do in terms of locking the ball inside 50. And quite frankly, I just don't think Todd has the engine yet to do that.

We want Marshall to develop into a combination of Watts and Dixon. But at the moment, I'd rather play Dixon as our power forward with Watts and Westhoff acting as two roaming CHF if you want to play three forwards - if the ball is going down one wing, the other is sprinting back to drop into space to draw the defense away from Charlie.

 

[Amarula]

Excellent last half dozen posts on this thread. I wonder whether the Richmond/Bulldogs ("R/B") and the Adelaide/GWS ("A/G") game styles are both second-best options.
There is one game style that can counter anything, and is incredibly difficult to counter itself. However, it is very hard to sustain for more than 2 or 3 years as it needs a critical number of players with excellent disposal skills at the same mid-20s career stage and distributed well around the ground. This is Geelong under Thompson, and Clarkson Mk II at Hawthorn, that shred opposing teams by precision ball movement.
It's an incredibly difficult team structure to put together, and will only last for a few years. In the absence of that, teams have to resort to either the Richmond/Bulldogs or the Adelaide/GWS styles as has been said. The Richmond/Dogs style relies on the opposition bombing it into attack at the point about 50m out from their goal. They have to apply intense pressure on the ball carrier, and use a disciplined zone defence, to force the other team into having to use the default option of the high bomb to CHF, which is by far the lowest percentage way of getting goals. It can be picked apart by sides who can get the ball into the open and create chains of uncontested possession, ending with either hitting up leading forwards (by far the highest percentage way of scoring) or getting a running shot with no pressure.
Gotta do some work now, more later.

 

[Macca19]

The propensity for AFL coaches to play a +1 in defence in order to generate run off of half back has facilitated the need for teams to play forward lines based around one of two strategies. Either they play a smaller forward line that empties out into defence and then streams forward into the open space (Richmond/Western Bulldogs style) or they play a tall forward line that exploits the run of their opposition and the fact that the extra defender is usually a smaller half back (Adelaide/GWS).

Richmond’s style of play - that full ground defensive pressure - enables them to spring forward with speed from any contested situation, no matter who wins the ball. Adelaide’s style of play requires them to win the ball and then farm the ball out to their designated runners/kickers who can spot up the extra tall. One style is based around everyone sharing the same load and contributing equally, the other is based around players playing clearly defined roles within the team in a hierarchal system.

When the game was less about aerobic conditioning and more about strength, the Adelaide style worked the best - which is why the Crows method appeals to the traditionalists. However, the push back against the Hawthorn method of skill > everything else has seen sides focus more heavily on defending and pressure, which has had a negative impact on sides like Adelaide actually achieving anything meaningful on wider grounds like the MCG where players who have limited leg speed tend to get lost in the deeper pockets.

It’s all well and good to play a structured system, but if you’re wasting time trying to spot up designated players to run the ball out of defence, an opposition team with hunger and determination will find it incredibly easy to turn the ball over by targeting not just the first contest, but the secondary contest (the link player) - which is what Richmond did.

Does this mean that the game has moved on from the Adelaide style, due to the success of both the Dogs and Tigers in playing a defensive system that actively targets opposition players rather than a passive zone that seeks to contain?

Some good points but not sure I agree with all of it. Defensive pressure has been huge in the AFL for a decade +. It's why pressure acts suddenly became a thing. All of West Coast, Geelong and Hawthorn have all been about full defensive pressure. So I don't think its a new thing and I don't think what the Dogs/Tigers did in terms of tackling and defensive pressure was all that ground breaking. Adelaide laid more tackles than Richmond this year after all.

My answer is yes. The Adelaide style works fantastically on smaller grounds where the play is easily funnelled to their key forwards, but they have consistently struggled on the MCG. Playing an extra tall requires the midfield to put in more work, so unless you’ve got a key forward that is willing to get up the ground and act like another mid (in the style of Franklin from Sydney or Cameron from GWS) teams with a tall forward line are going to struggle on GF day.

Adelaide have Lynch who does exactly what you described. Jenkins and McGovern too are mobile and push up the ground.

 

[Janus]

Some good points but not sure I agree with all of it. Defensive pressure has been huge in the AFL for a decade +. It's why pressure acts suddenly became a thing. All of West Coast, Geelong and Hawthorn have all been about full defensive pressure. So I don't think its a new thing and I don't think what the Dogs/Tigers did in terms of tackling and defensive pressure was all that ground breaking. Adelaide laid more tackles than Richmond this year after all.

It's where the pressure is applied and how fast it is applied IMO that is the difference. The Richmond/Bulldogs model is about getting the ball back as quickly as possible, whereas the West Coast (web) and Hawthorn (rolling zone) invited the ball into certain areas of the ground as sort of a 'trap'.

Adelaide have Lynch who does exactly what you described. Jenkins and McGovern too are mobile and push up the ground.

Lynch and Jenkins both act like outside mids who act as the link rather than an extra mid who can affect the play by winning the contest. They translate more into roaming lead up centre halves when they push up the ground. McGovern is the type of forward I'm talking about, but they need him up forward because he's the only one who can take a contested mark.

 

[Amarula]

I think that with the players* we've actively sought out and recruited in the off season, we're aiming more for the Clarko Mk II Hawks - relentless pressure plus fast precise ball use all over the ground. This is the way to reliably beat both the Richmond/Bulldogs and the Adelaide/GWS styles, if we can sustain it over the whole ground.

* Watts, Motlop, McKenzie & Trengove all fit; Rockliff should boost the pressure, and his ball use is OK.

 

[Janus]

I think that with the players* we've actively sought out and recruited in the off season, we're aiming more for the Clarko Mk II Hawks - relentless pressure plus fast precise ball use all over the ground. This is the way to reliably beat both the Richmond/Bulldogs and the Adelaide/GWS styles, if we can sustain it over the whole ground.

* Watts, Motlop, McKenzie & Trengove all fit; Rockliff should boost the pressure, and his ball use is OK.

I agree that we targeted a need to add skill (specifically ball retention percentage) to our line up. The great thing about Rockliff is that most of his kicks are short out of a stoppage, which didn’t work for Brisbane because they have a young side, but should help us with moving the ball quickly to the outside of a contest...particularly if he’s hitting up Watts.

We need fast movement - which was the key to our success in 2014. Everyone was always presented with three options at any point on the ground, which made it impossible to cover all of them. That’s why the Crows are successful with their style - it’s not about their players, but the fact that their players continually present and everyone knows where everyone else is going to be.

 

[GremioPower]

The best structure is that which your players fit in the best. It can be not enough, though.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I'm a strong believer that the Richmond and Bulldogs pressure gameplan has worked because there hasn't been a really good side who effortlessly take it apart. Look at how powerful the flood was until Geelong taught everyone to use run and carry to destroy it.

A 2015 era Hawthorn would have won the flag this year in a canter by kicking their way through the press. The gap has closed between the best and worst sides and the top sides (Adelaide, Geelong, GWS) are really pretty poor as far as top teams go. There is a huge gulf where there is usually 2 or 3 super talented dominant teams.

Look at the way we concede goals. It tends to be when our team defence breaks down and the opposition get a cheapy over the back. If GWS click next year they'll destroy the press of average teams like Richmond.

Trying to play a grinding, high pressure gameplan as the be all and end all is a waste of time because if a genuinely good team emerges, it's useless against them. We need to become that team while everyone else tries to emulate Richmond.

We need to use our embarrassment of attacking riches to turn our forward entry dominance into scores. Defence will still be a priority and we certainly still have the cattle to execute that part of the gameplan. Replacing the likes of Trengove and Impey with Watts and Motlop loses us a bit of defensive nous and pressure but gives us a huge boost to ball retention and scoring power. If we can execute, the only thing that stops us is GWS activating god mode.

 

[Janus]

Watts is a better pressure forward than Trengove (ranked elite for pressure inside 50) and Motlop is pretty good at defensive pressure too.

A genuinely good side is one that capitalises on high intensity defensive pressure. It’s not one that neglects it in favour of playing some bullshit counter attack crap, which is what weaker sides do.

The balance comes from improving the attack to match the defence - not from weakening the defence to improve the attack.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Watts is a better pressure forward than Trengove (ranked elite for pressure inside 50) and Motlop is pretty good at defensive pressure too.

A genuinely good side is one that capitalises on high intensity defensive pressure. It’s not one that neglects it in favour of playing some bullshit counter attack crap, which is what weaker sides do.

The balance comes from improving the attack to match the defence - not from weakening the defence to improve the attack.

And until now we've completely failed to capitalise on our elite defensive pressure.

As I said, the good teams have picked us apart using this style and we don't have the score on the board to wear the score against. We repeatedly lost those games because we couldn't generate enough score to counter the times the opposition found their way through the press. It's like peak Ross Lyon Freo. A great team will just find their way through our press too often for us to waste so many chances going forward.

Watts and especially Motlop weren't brought in to improve our pressure, they were brought in to improve our ability to retain the ball and score. I expect us to be a much better attacking team this year. We certainly arent becoming a dynasty by trying to emulate Richmond. We become a dynasty by being able pile on the score against teams that try to grind us out.

The amazing trade week is in service of that aim and I fully expect us to be far, far better at turning defence into attack this season.

 

[Janus]

And until now we've completely failed to capitalise on our elite defensive pressure.

As I said, the good teams have picked us apart using this style and we don't have the score on the board to wear the score against. We repeatedly lost those games because we couldn't generate enough score to counter the times the opposition found their way through the press. It's like peak Ross Lyon Freo. A great team will just find their way through our press too often for us to waste so many chances going forward.

Watts and especially Motlop weren't brought in to improve our pressure, they were brought in to improve our ability to retain the ball and score. I expect us to be a much better attacking team this year. We certainly arent becoming a dynasty by trying to emulate Richmond. We become a dynasty by being able pile on the score against teams that try to grind us out.

The amazing trade week is in service of that aim and I fully expect us to be far, far better at turning defence into attack this season.

Not sure why you’re repeating exactly what I’ve already said, when I said that the team that will win the flag will be the one that successfully combines the counter pressure of Richmond with the counter attack of Adelaide - which is exactly what we’ll be doing.

And you’re absolutely wrong about GWS being some sort of threat. Adelaide ****ing creamed the shit out of them twice and then proceeded to lose to Richmond. The only way GWS wins is if they find their defensive game. Which they won’t, because their players are too good for that and don’t want to put in the hard yards. It would take a complete reversal in attitude.

The Giants have lost to two defensive press sides in the Western Bulldogs and Richmond. Both of those sides went on to be premiers against Sydney and Adelaide. Maybe instead of holding onto your world view that tall forwards are the be all and end all you should actually adapt to what is actually happening in modern football, because GWS will be rolling with Lobb (Ryder) in ruck this year and only two key forwards in Patton (Dixon) and Cameron (Watts), with Himmelberg (Westhoff) rotating off the bench if they know what is good for them.

And even then I’d be expecting us to beat the living shit out of them, because like I said, they don’t defend. It comes from having too many “stars” who haven’t achieved shit playing on the same team.

 

[El_Scorcho]

My worldview is that no team has ever been successful over the long term without an elite attack.

You can't hurt good teams without scoreboard pressure. That is why we didn't beat a single good, in form team in 2017.

We won't become a great team by getting better at defending and generating I50s. We're already the best team in the league at that. We'll become a great team by becoming efficient going forward.