Opinion Leigh Matthews and that season he didn't win the Brownlow . . .

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footyfan1978

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No, your reply was "plzzz"
Yes and will always be that if anyone tries to say he had the same skills as Flower. The wizardry and artistry of Flower skills is not something Lethal could equal.
He did not need to either because his contested work with his strength was where he excelled.
 

LoungeLizard

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Yes and will always be that if anyone tries to say he had the same skills as Flower. The wizardry and artistry of Flower skills is not something Lethal could equal.
He did not need to either because his contested work with his strength was where he excelled.
Do you think footy skills are just looking good?

The skills you produce on the footy field are many, Flower was great at creating space, he was a great mark, and a lovely kick of the footy, they were his main attributes, you can name some more if you like.

Leathal had those skills also, but the thing with leathal, except for rucking, he could just about do what any other footy player could do, the bloke played as a rover and kicked more goals than most full fowards.
 

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LoungeLizard

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Of course not.
If you trying to say Flower only looked good, you barking up the wrong tree. He was supremely skilled with ball and what he did with it. You can only dream to be as skilled as he.
Ok, that response tells me you don't like reading my whole post.

Discussion stops here.

You made your point, I made mine.

Bye now.
 

theyellowsash

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That was the beauty of Lethal: the skills of Robbie Flower and brutality of Rod Grinter or Carl Ditterich all rolled into the one player
The loser clubs like Melbourne needed 2 spots on their team: one for the thug and one for the match winning ball player
The Hawks had the best of both worlds with their match-winning Demon-destroying thugs like Matthews, Dipper and Brereton

Those were some great days... Matthews played 27 games against Melbourne for 24 wins and 3 losses, including an unbeaten run that stretched from June 1973 to June 1984. Most of those wins by huge margins, too. 11 years of total ownership. Like that "Bring out the Gimp" scene in Pulp Fiction. Kind of makes sense that older Melbourne fans's arses would still be bleeding about it.
Easy to look skillful when your a coward who puts your man down off the ball so that you can run off under no pressure
 

HairyO

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There is no shame in not being as skilled as Robbie Flower.
99.9% of footballers were not that skilled.
What he, Lethal, did not have in skill, he more than made up for in brute strength and thuggery, to be the match winner he often was.
That is beyond dumb. So it took no skill to get 40 possessions and kick 11 goals in a single game. Right-o.

Flower was a great player, but not even in the same league as Matthews.
 

Partridge

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Yet Matthews had the best season ever played by anyone, and won every single award for player of the year - except for the Brownlow.

Is it more that the umpires just dont understand football?
That's pretty arguable. There have been plenty of amazing seasons played. There is no clear "best season every played". Except the commentators now like to call whatever just happened as that.
 

Partridge

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What are your top 5 individual seasons ?
Good question. It would take a fair amount of thinking. Off the top of my head I'd be considering things like:

- Pratt in 1934 (150 goals)
- Hudson in 1971 (150 goals)
- Lockett in 1991
- Ablett in 1993 (although his 1989 was probably just as good)
- Bartlett in 1980 (84 goals at age 33)
- Templeton in 1980 (won the Brownlow as a key forward in a team that finished last, amazing really)
- Ablett junior in 2009

And so on. And there would be many many more I'm either not aware of or have forgotten momentarily. So to me the whole "greatest season ever" becomes mostly an exercise of finding out that a player of my team mysteriously enough had the best season ever.
 

Mr north man

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Also, in 1968 he kicked more than 120 goals. 2nd in the Coleman kicked 60. So its not like everyone kicked 5+ all the time.

Peter Hudson did. In fact, noone ever kicked as many and as often as him. Coleman himself came close.
I remember Jason Dunstall Kicked 145 goals in 1992 came 2nd in the Brownlow a great year by any forward in a long time.
But everyone knows it’s a mid fielder award now and it will be always be one.
If a Ruckman for an example is to win it in the future would need to get a 40+knockouts pregame with 25 possessions with 15 marks and kick at least 2 to 3 goals a game .
As for a forward would need to kicked well over 150+ goals to be a chance with at least 10+ goals on a regular basis .
 

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iameviljez

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You do not have to agree.
It just my observation having lived through what it was like before salary cap and expansion.
Just seems less absolute stars now per team on average which has made complete sense why it so much easier for the stars in a team to get more of the votes than in past.
You do not have to agree with it and can understand if you not lived through it and only trying to work backwards why.
I think that professionalism is really telling now as well. With all due respect to the past, players today are far better in terms of everything bar marking IMO.

I think that the rise in winning Brownlow tallies has more to do with tactics. Teams used to play 1v1 all over the ground, now they swarm and thus players like Wines get to more contests than ever before. Clubs are also much smarter about getting the ball to their best ball user at the right time - hence the dominance of Fyfe, Danger, Dusty, Petracca etc.
 

Seeds

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Based on today’s standards? Then Yes you are correct, it isn’t acceptable. In the times that he played, there were a few others that played in a similar vein. He played to win and did what ever it took to get that win. Winning was the only acceptable outcome. Two seperate era’s two different standards.
No dude it was based on the standards back then. He was regarded as a thug back then. Not just today.
 

Back One Out

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I think that professionalism is really telling now as well. With all due respect to the past, players today are far better in terms of everything bar marking IMO.
Professionalism has meant that all players are better conditioned athletes with improved skills

But there are still the same basics to being a good footballer which have always been the same. All the things we define as "natural ability" such as anticipating play and finding the ball... reading the bounce of the ball, or reading it off hands... making quick decisions, being poised under pressure, being clean handed and not fumbling... putting a teammate into space with a well-timed handball, or quickly sizing up the field and kicking the ball to advantage ... evasive moves such as baulking/selling candy, stepping around tacklers... Keeping your balance and not falling over!

Just knowing where the goals are! Few players have the goal radar of Dusty, Lethal, Ablett, Peter Daicos or Darren Jarman. Very few can get boot to ball in any situation and find the goals from any angle like those guys could.

There's plenty of things to being a good footballer which you can't teach to a American college athlete who never played the game

These things haven't changed. The superstars of the modern era are no better at these innate things than the champions of the 1960's, 70's, and 80's, or even the greats from the 1920's and 30's. For this reason, I think people have their heads wedged firmly up their arses when they dismiss the champs of yesteryear and think today's champs are way better.



One area where the game has declined is the removal of the bump.

The modern day midfield bulls can stick their head over the ball knowing they won't be knocked out. Modern midfielders often linger with their head over the ball hoping to milk a free for high contact. They know opposition players will be treading carefully. Midfielders from yesteryear went in for every ball in a pack situation without the same protection that today's midfielders enjoy. They had to have the toughness and bravery of a prize fighter - they knew they were going to get hit, but they had to stick their head in, get the ball and GTFO as quickly as they could.

People who watch the "highlight" reels of Lethal's biffo probably don't realise that you could compile another video of equal length of him on the receiving end. He copped plenty, but he was as tough as they come. That's one of the reasons why he was the game's greatest player in that era. Toughness, ruthlessness and enormous natural ability and skill.
 
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Back One Out

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No dude it was based on the standards back then.
Back in the days when we had standards and people knew how to punctuate a sentence. :D

Matthews was different to many of the true thugs from that era such as Carl Ditterich, Ron Andrews and Roger Merrett in that he didn't go around belting opponents in every contest and every game. Most games he let his football do the talking. But he had a knack for inflicting extreme damage when he did go the knuckle (or when played the man and not the ball.)
 
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Sphynx

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He should be eternally grateful he played in the era he did and not the cancel culture of social media.

He made Toby Greene look like Brett Kirk.

He would have been run out of the game, no question. Yet that side of the game is very rarely mentioned these days and most pundits just shrug their shoulders and remember his stats or flags.

Without a doubt one of the dirtiest campaigners to grace a football field.

He wasn't a Byron Pickett type who at least ironed blokes out (relatively) fairly under the rules of the day. He king hit blokes regularly (in play or out of play - didn't matter), cleaned players up with flying elbows, stomped on heads and dropped knee's into players where he could. The vast majority to players from behind or without them looking. Unbelievable to think back to it in all honesty.

He was the dirtiest player, of the dirtiest era of football. He was that dirty the police charged him for one of his king hits on the field, that should put it in perspective.

If there was trial by video, it's no exaggeration to say you could have scratched off 100-150 games of his 332.

Hawthorn of the 60's, 70's, 80's was littered with more dirty players than most sides. Unsurprising when you see who led them for a major portion it.

If he didn't have half the ability he did, he still would have been remembered through the eras, more so in infamy, like some of the other snipers throughout that era.
 
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Sphynx

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Good question. It would take a fair amount of thinking. Off the top of my head I'd be considering things like:

- Pratt in 1934 (150 goals)
- Hudson in 1971 (150 goals)
- Lockett in 1991
- Ablett in 1993 (although his 1989 was probably just as good)
- Bartlett in 1980 (84 goals at age 33)
- Templeton in 1980 (won the Brownlow as a key forward in a team that finished last, amazing really)
- Ablett junior in 2009

And so on. And there would be many many more I'm either not aware of or have forgotten momentarily. So to me the whole "greatest season ever" becomes mostly an exercise of finding out that a player of my team mysteriously enough had the best season ever.
Yeah, i think Carey averaging around 20 disposals, 8 marks and 3.3 goals a game in 96 and 98 probably settles in somewhere.


Carey would have been the top possession getter in 1996 for about a dozen sides, from CHF.

To put that in perspective, Christian Petracca was 10th for average disposals this season with 29.20 disposals per game.
 

iameviljez

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Professionalism has meant that all players are better conditioned athletes with improved skills

But there are still the same basics to being a good footballer which have always been the same. All the things we define as "natural ability" such as anticipating play and finding the ball... reading the bounce of the ball, or reading it off hands... making quick decisions, being poised under pressure, being clean handed and not fumbling... putting a teammate into space with a well-timed handball, or quickly sizing up the field and kicking the ball to advantage ... evasive moves such as baulking/selling candy, stepping around tacklers... Keeping your balance and not falling over!

Just knowing where the goals are! Few players have the goal radar of Dusty, Lethal, Ablett, Peter Daicos or Darren Jarman. Very few can get boot to ball in any situation and find the goals from any angle like those guys could.

There's plenty of things to being a good footballer which you can't teach to a American college athlete who never played the game

These things haven't changed. The superstars of the modern era are no better at these innate things than the champions of the 1960's, 70's, and 80's, or even the greats from the 1920's and 30's. For this reason, I think people have their heads wedged firmly up their arses when they dismiss the champs of yesteryear and think today's champs are better
That I disagree with. Even these innate skills are trainable - reading the game, snapshots, goal sense, ball handling.

Where I do agree with you is that the game is less physically dangerous than it once was, simply because we now know there is a long term price to be paid for that physicality.
 

footyfan1978

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He should be eternally grateful he played in the era he did and not the cancel culture of social media.

He made Toby Greene look like Brett Kirk.

He would have been run out of the game, no question. Yet that side of the game is very rarely mentioned these days and most pundits just shrug their shoulders and remember his stats or flags.

Without a doubt one of the dirtiest campaigners to grace a football field.

He wasn't a Byron Pickett type who at least ironed blokes out (relatively) fairly under the rules of the day. He king hit blokes regularly (in play or out of play - didn't matter), cleaned players up with flying elbows, stomped on heads and dropped knee's into players where he could. The vast majority to players from behind or without them looking. Unbelievable to think back to it in all honesty.

He was the dirtiest player, of the dirtiest era of football. He was that dirty the police charged him for one of his king hits on the field, that should put it in perspective.

If there was trial by video, it's no exaggeration to say you could have scratched off 100-150 games of his 332.

Hawthorn of the 60's, 70's, 80's was littered with more dirty players than most sides. Unsurprising when you see who led them for a major portion it.

If he didn't have half the ability he did, he still would have been remembered through the eras, more so in infamy, like some of the other snipers throughout that era.
 

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