Leppa's third year.

[lukiuslion]

Hawthorn won 4 games in 2004.

Clarkson won 5 in 2005.


Clarkson saw 700 games of experience leave in 2005 as Hawthorn embarked on a rebuild, either through choice, trades or delisting.

In 2006 they moved their training and admin to Waverly Park (Ricoh centre - and are about to leave) - but it had just been completely refurbished. Their membership was stagnant in 2005,6 being down on previous years at approx 29k - less than half of recent years.

While never making a loss, 2005 saw Hawthorn only make a $90k profit - the lowest since 97 and followed 2 other very poor years. 2014 saw Hawthorn post a $3.4m profit.


Yes you can argue there were differences, mainly to the extent of the issues, but for a Vic based club there are a hell of a lot of similarities too.

There are huge similarities between the situations. But this whole notion that a hopeless, backward start by Clarkson was persisted by the club simply isn't true. People constantly mention him as if it is the same as situation as Leppa is in now and use it as a reason for hope, but fact is - he trended upward, from rock bottom - from the day he walked in the door and won a flag in his forth season. That's my opinion anyway. I have hope for Leppa based on his stature, ability to lead, his footy brain and the fact he is a great person - but not so much based on false comparisons made to Clarkson. Not trying to to slam those who draw the comparison, Clarkson WAS a rebuild coach, but he had a very successful 'classic' rebuild, no he didn't have the Hinkly, Voss, or Bevridge first season spike - but he trended upward and made huge, unmistakeable gains over his first 3 seasons. Leppa has not had the same path so far - we went from 10 wins (with a 1 point loss to the Cats in the last round at home) to 7 wins and now look like we have totally bottomed out in 2015. We are not doomed, but we share no comparisons to Claksons Hawks or Bombers cats.

 

[Ironmonger]

I don't get the comparisons being made here.

I don't mind the Clarkson comparison, but notliondown is not correct if he's suggesting that it's more appropriate than what Beveridge is doing right now at the Dogs.

All developing teams go through peaks and troughs, even Hawthorn if you look closely enough. The Power have flattened, the Dogs will likely flatten at some point, the Cats flattened in 2006, we flattened in a big way in 1998.

Generally there needs to be some success pretty early in the process. If you have a sizable number of early draft picks to play with, like Clarkson at Hawthorn or the Suns and Giants of recent years, you can probably justify taking a bit longer to develop them. But we're not in that situation so in my opinion we can only learn so much from Hawthorn and should look to some more recent examples.

I keep coming back to this; Leppitsch has a number of problems facing him, but this should be the context for the strategy, not excuses for it. If his approach relies on us having Hawthorn-style priority picks, then it's a bad strategy. If it relies on us having a big key forward to kick to, then it's a bad strategy. If it only works when we get a good run with injuries, then it's a bad strategy.

 

[notliondown]

I don't mind the Clarkson comparison, but notliondown is not correct if he's suggesting that it's more appropriate than what Beveridge is doing right now at the Dogs.

All developing teams go through peaks and troughs, even Hawthorn if you look closely enough. The Power have flattened, the Dogs will likely flatten at some point, the Cats flattened in 2006, we flattened in a big way in 1998.

Generally there needs to be some success pretty early in the process. If you have a sizable number of early draft picks to play with, like Clarkson at Hawthorn or the Suns and Giants of recent years, you can probably justify taking a bit longer to develop them. But we're not in that situation so in my opinion we can only learn so much from Hawthorn and should look to some more recent examples.

I keep coming back to this; Leppitsch has a number of problems facing him, but this should be the context for the strategy, not excuses for it. If his approach relies on us having Hawthorn-style priority picks, then it's a bad strategy. If it relies on us having a big key forward to kick to, then it's a bad strategy. If it only works when we get a good run with injuries, then it's a bad strategy.

No mate, I'm not suggesting one is more appropriate than the other at all and if thats the impression then I apologise.

What I am suggesting is that there are alternatives to study instead of the inevitable flash in the pan teams that we constantly get thrown up against.

Hinkley and Beveridge are yet to be proven to be better coaches than Leppa in the long term, thats as simple as I can put it.

Trying to directly compare coaches faced with dramatically different club and team dynamics is a pretty hard thing to quantify - and in the context of a more classic rebuild faced, Hawthorn as a good a comparison as any.

Besides... as naive as I am, I like the idea than things can turn upward as quickly as they turn down.

 

[notliondown]

I keep coming back to this; Leppitsch has a number of problems facing him, but this should be the context for the strategy, not excuses for it. If his approach relies on us having Hawthorn-style priority picks, then it's a bad strategy. If it relies on us having a big key forward to kick to, then it's a bad strategy. If it only works when we get a good run with injuries, then it's a bad strategy.

Please don't think this is aimed directly at you alone Ironmonger but just what should be the strategy? Do you have proof there isn't one? Or that it simply can't be or isn't being implemented at the moment? Why can't any or all of those things be part of a bigger picture to stabilize and go forward?

I love hearing all the reasons as to why both Voss and Leppa failed... and a number of the same people here could simply change the names in posts made 2 years ago and repost its that repetitive.

Seems it's easy to find all the reasons someone is no good yet difficult to offer logical alternatives in both style and ability given current the clubs circumstances.

 

[Bucking Beads]

It'll be much easier to compare us and Leppa with other coaches and clubs after we see what happens next season.

 

[MacMum]

No-one, including me, can or should judge Leppa until he has a full and fit team to go with.

INJURIES have killed his time at the helm.

It really is as simple as that.

The fitness department is the area I would like to see given a good and thorough review.

 

[lukiuslion]

No-one, including me, can or should judge Leppa until he has a full and fit team to go with.

INJURIES have killed his time at the helm.

It really is as simple as that.

The fitness department is the area I would like to see given a good and thorough review.

Whilst injuries have been bad, IMO - they have not been bad enough to completely excuse such poor progress to this point, they have been a contributing factor but it hasn't been enough to completely dispel any concern on the team as a whole. However, no one is saying that *fingers crossed* with a 80% of the team available for %70 of next year, we still can't hold out hope we finally see that sustained, spike in performance w eare all craving.

 

[jackess]

At least 50% of the games we've been belted in. Missing Rockliff, Merrett, Close and Hanley for a lot of the season doesn't excuse that. Look at what the Suns did on the weekend without 5 of their 6 best midfielders.

 

[James North]

At least 50% of the games we've been belted in. Missing Rockliff, Merrett, Close and Hanley for a lot of the season doesn't excuse that. Look at what the Suns did on the weekend without 5 of their 6 best midfielders.

This is one of the worst comparisons I've seen on BigFooty - and that's saying something. Once someone said that Prince was no good (highly offensive).

To rephrase what you are saying:

Less than 50% of our games we've done well in IS NOT AS GOOD AS

One game where the Suns did well in.

 

[jackess]

This is one of the worst comparisons I've seen on BigFooty - and that's saying something. Once someone said that Prince was no good (highly offensive).

To rephrase what you are saying:

Less than 50% of our games we've done well in IS NOT AS GOOD AS

One game where the Suns did well in.

Would you back us to draw with the Eagles without Beams, Hanley, Rockliff, Redden and Zorko?

Where did I say 'is not as good as'? Just pointing out that other teams can play very well without a 60% of their salary cap playing.

I didn't say even with injuries we should be playing as well as the Suns did last week in every game.

 

[James North]

Would you back us to draw with the Eagles without Beams, Hanley, Rockliff, Redden and Zorko?

Where did I say 'is not as good as'? Just pointing out that other teams can play very well without a 60% of their salary cap playing.

I didn't say even with injuries we should be playing as well as the Suns did last week in every game.

I wouldn't - and I wouldn't back the Suns next week against them either. I think they'd lose by 50.

A draw was an upset.

An upset vs our whole season? Come on.

 

[jackess]

I wouldn't - and I wouldn't back the Suns next week against them either. I think they'd lose by 50.

A draw was an upset.

An upset vs our whole season? Come on.

What?!

The point is there's other reasons for our terrible performance this season than just injuries

 

[James North]

What?!

The point is there's other reasons for our terrible performance this season than just injuries

This is what you said:

Missing Rockliff, Merrett, Close and Hanley for a lot of the season doesn't excuse that.

Look at what the Suns did on the weekend without 5 of their 6 best midfielders.

"Look at what the Suns did" (despite injury) in one game is a direct comparison to our injury toll causing beltings this season.

So the Suns are doing something better than us (in that one game)?

How else can this be interpreted?

 

[Nunez]

This is what you said:



"Look at what the Suns did" (despite injury) in one game is a direct comparison to our injury toll causing beltings this season.

So the Suns are doing something better than us (in that one game)?

How else can this be interpreted?

Don't argue, he might get offended.

 

[jackess]

This is what you said:



"Look at what the Suns did" (despite injury) in one game is a direct comparison to our injury toll causing beltings this season.

So the Suns are doing something better than us (in that one game)?

How else can this be interpreted?

It was meant as an example of how you can play good footy with a large chunk of your team missing through injury.

I'm not saying that their one game is a greater achievement than our whole season.

 

[luthor]

It was meant as an example of how you can play good footy with a large chunk of your team missing through injury.

I'm not saying that their one game is a greater achievement than our whole season.

They pulled one out of the hat against the Eagles.

We pulled one out of the hat against Port.

Both wins involved us/the Suns being well below full strength.

Hooray!!!

Hooray for us and Hooray for the Suns!!!

But You just can't extrapolate one upset win into some kind of direct quantitative comparison, especially when one event is fresher in your mind than the other.

We have 2 wins for the season and they have 2.5.

Both sides have had horrendous seasons and both sides' total crap results have been exacerbated by injury tolls from hell. That's about where the comparisons end IMO.

 

[jackess]

They pulled one out of the hat against the Eagles.

We pulled one out of the hat against Port.

Both wins involved us/the Suns being well below full strength.

Hooray!!!

Hooray for us and Hooray for the Suns!!!

But You just can't extrapolate one upset win into some kind of direct quantitative comparison, especially when one event is fresher in your mind than the other

Ok. No injuries and we'd be in the eight. Sign Leppa for 10 years.

 

[luthor]

Ok. No injuries and we'd be in the eight. Sign Leppa for 10 years.

*****
Speechless.

Can't argue with such devastating logic

 

[jackess]

*****
Speechless.

Can't argue with such devastating logic

Well argue about the point I was making which was that injuries isnt the only reason we've been so awful this season instead of nitpicking about the example I made.

 

[Hysteria25]

No-one, including me, can or should judge Leppa until he has a full and fit team to go with.

INJURIES have killed his time at the helm.

It really is as simple as that.

The fitness department is the area I would like to see given a good and thorough review.

Did you forget to watch our game against Melbourne?

 

[Hysteria25]

This is what you said:



"Look at what the Suns did" (despite injury) in one game is a direct comparison to our injury toll causing beltings this season.

So the Suns are doing something better than us (in that one game)?

How else can this be interpreted?

Could you stop sniping other posters for just one second of your life?

 

[lukiuslion]

Yeah I don't think even with a relatively full squad we would be in any much of different position.

so confused, so far from the mark.

But... Leppas third year may still bare fruit.

 

[luthor]

Well argue about the point I was making which was that injuries isnt the only reason we've been so awful this season instead of nitpicking about the example I made.

Injuries may well NOT be the ONLY reason we've been so awful this season but they have been a significant factor.As they have been for the Suns.

It's not a mutually exclusive argument.

By that , I mean that the reasons for the Lions and the Suns BOTH having terrible seasons are due to a number of factors, not the least being the horrendous injury tolls suffered by both clubs. There are undoubtedly other factors involved that may be debated. Coaching, player welfare, recovery, skills, list management, morale.......etc

The fact that the Suns just happened to have an upset win last week doesn't appeal to me as a valid premise to an argument that we (the Lions) should have been better than we have been or should have won more games than we have!

If you want to argue a point, argue to the point without using spurious comparisons based on a sample of one game that happens to be fresh in the memory

 

[jackess]

Injuries may well NOT be the ONLY reason we've been so awful this season but they have been a significant factor.As they have been for the Suns.

It's not a mutually exclusive argument.

By that , I mean that the reasons for the Lions and the Suns BOTH having terrible seasons are due to a number of factors, not the least being the horrendous injury tolls suffered by both clubs. There are undoubtedly other factors involved that may be debated. Coaching, player welfare, recovery, skills, list management, morale.......etc

The fact that the Suns just happened to have an upset win last week doesn't appeal to me as a valid premise to an argument that we (the Lions) should have been better than we have been or should have won more games than we have!

If you want to argue a point, argue to the point without using spurious comparisons based on a sample of one game that happens to be fresh in the memory

It's hard to put evidence behind the argument but we've been uncompetitive in at least 12 of the 17 games.

We've had Rocky, Hanley, Merrett and a key forward missing for practically all of those games. Although even when they've been in we haven't been a lot better.

Clearly there's been a lot more than just injuries contributing to our pathetic performances this season.

 

[James North]

Could you stop sniping other posters for just one second of your life?

I haven't posted for quite a while, but thanks for sniping my post.