Lets get this straight, It's NOT about Christ

BomberGal

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#26
Pessimistic said:
It may be called CHRISTmas but the 'true' meaning of the festival is NOT what the various clergy go on about at this time of year (and have as long as I can remember)

It was some kind of pagan festival associated with the shortest daylight day in the Northern hemisphere. The christmas tree, the food, the candles etc all associated with this.

The christians pulled a fast one and rebadged it christmas and now are complaining because a coca cola inspired santa has done the same to them. Saint Nickclaus was a christian so give them that much.

Boxing day was the day to give presents to friends and the poor.

Some of you will know more than me on this but it's a bit galling of the clergy to complain about no nativity scane in melbourne when they have churches in a prime positions - what's wrong with THEM having a nativity scene.

Oh and apparently dec 25th is not His Birthday (a bit like the queen I suppose- it happens on the wrong day)
To all those who seem to think this is wrong - it's actually true.

2000 odd years ago (and earlier), December 25th was the date of the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere (it's now around December 21st because of the inevitable shift over time). The Roman pagans celebrated the sun's triumph over the cold winter (ie days getting longer) in a festival called Saturnalia, which took place on and around December 25th.

When Christians started to gain power in the Roman Empire, they wanted the Romans to celebrate the birth of Christ. So, they placed the date of the birth of Christ at Saturnalia, in order to placate the Pagans - they would now celebrate a Christian festival, but still feel like they were celebrating Saturnalia if they wished.

I'm not sure when Christ's date of birth is, but it is certainly not December 25th. Christmas was not celebrated until around the 4th century AD (when the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine, came into power - 337AD).

The Isis-Horus story is true enough. In many versions of Egyptian mythology, Horus is believed to have been born around December 25th (as are many other Egyptian deities), and whilst his mother was not 'necessarily' a virgin, it was still an immaculate conception. This was probably a factor in December 25th being chosen for Christmas. (Possibly an attempt to placate the huge Isis cult sector of the Roman pagans, which for a few hundred years had now included the powerful Egyptians.) But then this gets into the whole pagan origins of Christianity itself, and that's another thread in itself. A couple of other things I could mention briefly, though: Horus's father, Osiris, was raised from the dead. Horus fought his uncle Seth (which can be translated as Satan) and was carried to a mountain (similar Jesus-Satan story).

However, whatever the festival of December 25th originally was, it is now a celebration of the birth of Christ. Seeing as Christianity is the dominant religion in Western countries, I don't see the problem with openly celebrating the religious meaning of Christmas. For example, if I go to a Muslim country, I'll respect their traditions and religion. Those that come here should do the same. Political correctness has gone far too overboard (sorry for stating the obvious).
 

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Birdy

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#27
No one is going to argue that some Christmas traditions have pagan origins, however to say that Christmas is itself pagan or not about Christ is simply wrong. Just because the Romans chose the same date as a pagan festival to worship Christ's birth does not mean Christmas was based on paganism.
 

Freo Big Fella

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#29
Birdy said:
No one is going to argue that some Christmas traditions have pagan origins, however to say that Christmas is itself pagan or not about Christ is simply wrong. Just because the Romans chose the same date as a pagan festival to worship Christ's birth does not mean Christmas was based on paganism.

Err. Yes it does. It was simply an effective method of subversive assimilation and indoctrination by the Christian Church. If the pagans solstice celebration had fallen on the 28th, thats when X-mas would have been.

Nothing in Christianity is Original.
 

BomberGal

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#30
Birdy said:
No one is going to argue that some Christmas traditions have pagan origins, however to say that Christmas is itself pagan or not about Christ is simply wrong. Just because the Romans chose the same date as a pagan festival to worship Christ's birth does not mean Christmas was based on paganism.
I was raised as a Christian, but it doesn't stop me ignoring the hundreds of facts out there that show just how much of Christianity is based on Paganism. Like I said before, I could get into them, but it's really a separate discussion.

Just because someone is a Christian, doesn't mean they lose their faith if they acknowledge the facts.
 

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#31
BomberGal said:
I was raised as a Christian, but it doesn't stop me ignoring the hundreds of facts out there that show just how much of Christianity is based on Paganism. Like I said before, I could get into them, but it's really a separate discussion.

Just because someone is a Christian, doesn't mean they lose their faith if they acknowledge the facts.
Christianity is not based on paganism. Horus, Osiris, Mithraism, and whatever else, they are all myths and can be easily refuted.
 

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#32
Freo Big Fella said:
Err. Yes it does. It was simply an effective method of subversive assimilation and indoctrination by the Christian Church. If the pagans solstice celebration had fallen on the 28th, thats when X-mas would have been.

Nothing in Christianity is Original.
So Christmas may have been established on the same date to turn people away from the pagan festivities. So what? It is still the date we celebrate the birth of Jesus. That doesn't mean it's based on paganism.
 

Freo Big Fella

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#33
Birdy said:
So Christmas may have been established on the same date to turn people away from the pagan festivities. So what? It is still the date we celebrate the birth of Jesus. That doesn't mean it's based on paganism.

If it wasn't based on paganism, then why celebrate it on the 25th at all?
 

BomberGal

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#34
Birdy said:
Christianity is not based on paganism. Horus, Osiris, Mithraism, and whatever else, they are all myths and can be easily refuted.
I hold many Pagan beliefs, and so for me, these Gods might be more real than the Christian God, thank you. And as such, I might think Moses and Jesus and the Virgin Mary can easily be refuted.

When you take a step back and look at it all, the religions hold many similarities, and are as mythical as each other. I don't see how Christianity is any less of a myth than, say, the ancient Egyptian religion - other than that Christianity is such a widespread religion today and we are so ingrained with it in our upbringing that it seems to gain an element of truth for many. I don't understand how Adam being created from the Earth's dust and Eve from his rib, is any 'truer' than Isis, Osiris and Horus descending from the great god Re and, ultimately, Nu. (BTW. What does 'Lilith' mean to you?)

I'm studying science at uni. So I study ways in which all religion can be refuted. What say you to that? What are your thoughts on evolution vs creationism?

Do you want me to highlight all the ways in which Christianity 'borrows' from Paganism? I'd be quite happy to, but the problem with doing that, is that I know all the Christians will automatically say "bull$h!t" because it goes against their beliefs - they won't stop and give it a real moment's thought.
 

Freo Big Fella

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#35
Birdy said:
Christianity is not based on paganism. Horus, Osiris, Mithraism, and whatever else, they are all myths and can be easily refuted.

Whether or not they are Myths is irrelevant. Early Catholics/Christians still ripped off they way that people worshipped the gods of the day.

Historical portrayal of God as a man with a White Beard = Historical portrayal of Zeus

Father Son and Holy Ghost = Osiris, Isis, Horus

Images of the "Virgin" Mary and Baby Jesus = Eerily similar to images of Isis and her son Horus.

Jesus coming back from the dead to save the world from Sin can equal Ra's journey into the Underworld each night and resurfacing in the morning after fighting the Demons of the underworld, or Horus's exile to the Nile Delta and eventual return to unseat Set.

Virgin Birth = birth of Athena

communion = "god eating", where peices of meat were blessed and viewed as being holy when eaten was practiced in many Pagan religions.

There's plenty more, but I think I've said enough.
 

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#36
BomberGal said:
The Isis-Horus story is true enough. In many versions of Egyptian mythology, Horus is believed to have been born around December 25th (as are many other Egyptian deities), and whilst his mother was not 'necessarily' a virgin, it was still an immaculate conception. This was probably a factor in December 25th being chosen for Christmas. (Possibly an attempt to placate the huge Isis cult sector of the Roman pagans, which for a few hundred years had now included the powerful Egyptians.) But then this gets into the whole pagan origins of Christianity itself, and that's another thread in itself. A couple of other things I could mention briefly, though: Horus's father, Osiris, was raised from the dead. Horus fought his uncle Seth (which can be translated as Satan) and was carried to a mountain (similar Jesus-Satan story).
All spot on Bomber Gal.

And just to add to that, Egyptian mythology claims that Osiris was murdered by Seth, who then scattered his body all over the place. Isis searched the world for his body parts, gathered them together, and mummified him, and he was ressurected....yep, 3 days after his death. And whats more, the date that this occurred is Easter, which was celebrated amongst the Egyptians as the resurection of Osiris.

And the 25th of December....the day that Osiris was made pharoah. Many believe that Nimrod and Osiris are the one and same...with Queen Seramanis being Isis.

Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. Jesus is not God, now is he the son of God, nor did he ever claim to be the son of God. Christianity was hijacked by the agents of evil (namely St Paul) who went directly against the teachings of christ, spreading lies....the true disciples of christ at the time (namely James the Just, and Peter) were strongly opposed to St Pauls message.

And unfortunately, 300 years later, the trinity became Christian law, and Jesus, who was not a God, but a prophet, a great prophet and a man we should all follow his example, but nonetheless a man....became a God in the eyes of so many, and the son of God in others.

Its not the first time this sort of thing has happened, human history is littered with tales where great men were eventually worshipped as Gods.
 

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Lestat

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#37
Birdy said:
So Christmas may have been established on the same date to turn people away from the pagan festivities. So what? It is still the date we celebrate the birth of Jesus. That doesn't mean it's based on paganism.
But it wasn't his birthday!

Jesus was born on a warm night in Bethleham. Now considering that summer in the northern hemisphere is opposite to ours, that would put his birth somewhere between May and July/August.

How can you celebrate someone's birthday, when its not his birthday.

I'm gonna celebrate my birthday tomorrow, so i'm gonna take a day off work. Well, its not really my birthday, but I'll celebrate it tomorrow anyway.

Hell, I might even celebrate it next week too . :rolleyes:
 

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#38
Lestat said:
Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. Jesus is not God, now is he the son of God, nor did he ever claim to be the son of God. Christianity was hijacked by the agents of evil (namely St Paul) who went directly against the teachings of christ, spreading lies....the true disciples of christ at the time (namely James the Just, and Peter) were strongly opposed to St Pauls message.

And unfortunately, 300 years later, the trinity became Christian law, and Jesus, who was not a God, but a prophet, a great prophet and a man we should all follow his example, but nonetheless a man....became a God in the eyes of so many, and the son of God in others.

Its not the first time this sort of thing has happened, human history is littered with tales where great men were eventually worshipped as Gods.

L.

Dont you mean these are your beliefs?
 

Freo Big Fella

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#39
Lestat said:
All spot on Bomber Gal.

And just to add to that, Egyptian mythology claims that Osiris was murdered by Seth, who then scattered his body all over the place. Isis searched the world for his body parts, gathered them together, and mummified him, and he was ressurected....yep, 3 days after his death. And whats more, the date that this occurred is Easter, which was celebrated amongst the Egyptians as the resurection of Osiris.

And the 25th of December....the day that Osiris was made pharoah. Many believe that Nimrod and Osiris are the one and same...with Queen Seramanis being Isis.

Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. Jesus is not God, now is he the son of God, nor did he ever claim to be the son of God. Christianity was hijacked by the agents of evil (namely St Paul) who went directly against the teachings of christ, spreading lies....the true disciples of christ at the time (namely James the Just, and Peter) were strongly opposed to St Pauls message.

And unfortunately, 300 years later, the trinity became Christian law, and Jesus, who was not a God, but a prophet, a great prophet and a man we should all follow his example, but nonetheless a man....became a God in the eyes of so many, and the son of God in others.

Its not the first time this sort of thing has happened, human history is littered with tales where great men were eventually worshipped as Gods.
Rep worthy that. I forgot the Chop-up mummification story of Osiris. Egyptian Mythology sure has the best stories.
 

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#41
Freo Big Fella said:
Rep worthy that. I forgot the Chop-up mummification story of Osiris. Egyptian Mythology sure has the best stories.
yeah its rather interesting isn't it.

I'm going to Egypt in a months time. Can't wait. I've been away from Karnak for way to long.

The osiris story is really fascination.

I thought this was facinating. The story goes that Isis found all Osiris's body parts, except for one...that being Osiris penis ( i kid you not). The penis of Osiris thus became some sort of mystical object with apparent super nature (or preternatural ;)) powers, sought after by many.

In fact, the Obelisk (Egyptian needles) is meant to represent the penis of Osiris, and many pagans and esoteric types believe that it is meant to represent masculane energy, and the monuments can actually focus masculane energy to a certain point.

It is interesting to see Washington memorial (being an obelisk) from a top view. The roads around it form a pentagram, whilst the obelisk sits directly in the middle.

Oh...and with obelisks, for the obelisk to stand, it is said that 20% of it must be under the ground. Now the washington Memorial hall stands 555 metres tall. 20% of 555 is 111. Now 111+555 = 666. (Number of the beast).

I read that once in a conspiracy book. ;)
 

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#42
Bombers 2003 said:
In the british defence forces,the Officers and 'other ranks'change places for the day.
So they swap holes?


Dont forget the Gregorian calendar replaced the Julian calendar circa 1752 and 10 days were taken away.e.g.October 6 next day was October 17

Birdy ask yourself this : why does 1 day become more important when celebrating the life of JC.As a committed christian I would hope that you think and accept him every day.
 

Lestat

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#43
skipper kelly said:
L.

Dont you mean these are your beliefs?
My beliefs are well known on these boards. So yes, of course they are my beliefs...i've never claimed otherwise.

Regarding Osiris, Horus re Egyptian mythology and the pagan roots of Christians....

Who knows, no one really. We are talking about the beliefs of a people that lived 5000 years ago.

However, you'd have to agree it all seems rather sus...doesn't it Skipper.

I have no doubt that Christianity has its origins from God. And Jesus was a prophet of God, and his message I have no doubt whatsoever is divine in nature.

But not todays Christianity. The message has been corrupted. Mind you, Christianity is not alone in this regards. All the religons have been corrupted in some for or another. Judism, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, Hindu...you name it. It is in mans nature to corrupt the purest laws of God.

The trinity itself is a pagan concept.

It comes up all over the place in pagan mythology. Romulas, Remus and the she-wolf. Osiris, Isis, and Horus. The ancient Egyptians believed that the pharoah was the living incarnation of Horus, the god on Earth. When he died, he became Osiris, the God of the Underworld. And the dead pharoah's son, became Horus. And Isis, the Goddess of the Moon, and Re-birth was the keeper of the Ankh (the key of life....looks awfully like a cross, you may have seen it).

With the ankh, Isis bought to life all new born babies by inserting the key into the nose of the infant, and turning it. Now these aren't my beliefs at all skipper, they are what the books i've read are saying about Ancient Egyptian mythology. This is the supposed religon of the ancient egyptians.

Now seriously....how similar is that to the 'father, the son and the holy spirit'.

Now, considering that not once in the Bible does Jesus say that he is the son of god. or that he is divine in any way...or that the trinity is not mentioned at all in the bible, I always wonder where these beliefs came from. They came from a man who was a self confessed enemy of Jesus, who apparently fell of a donkey on the road to damascus, saw the light, and proceeded to spread lies about the teachings of Jesus.

And 300 years later, a conference in Nicea held by a self confessed pagan emperor of Rome who refused to convert to Christianity (till he was on his death bed...tell me, how do you know that someone converted to Christianity, when he's breathing his last breath), oversaw a conference in which some of Jesus's teachings were suppressed, and the trinity was placed as Christian Law.

Forgive me for being slightly bemused!
 

BomberGal

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#44
Lestat said:
All spot on Bomber Gal.

And just to add to that, Egyptian mythology claims that Osiris was murdered by Seth, who then scattered his body all over the place. Isis searched the world for his body parts, gathered them together, and mummified him, and he was ressurected....yep, 3 days after his death. And whats more, the date that this occurred is Easter, which was celebrated amongst the Egyptians as the resurection of Osiris.
Let's also consider that Osiris is King of the Underworld and Judge of the Dead (the 'weighing of the heart' against the 'feather of truth' (Ma'at*)) when the dead souls cross into the Underworld. (Also, before Osiris died, he judged the living as well.) The Christian Nicene Creed reads this of Jesus: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead." What does Osiris do? Judges the dead and judged the living! Another Osiris-Jesus link.

I guess the main link to Paganism is simply the Father-Son-Holy Spirit (or, alternatively, God-Virgin Mary-Jesus) concept, which is very similar to the immaculate conception of Horus by Isis through the dead Osiris.

*Ma'at was a goddess, and also a set of beliefs - 42 Laws. To break these laws was considered a sin. To sin in Christianity is to break one of a similar set of laws - the 10 commandments.

One of the biggest symbols throughout Egyptian culture, was that of the ankh (eternal life). The ankh bears much resemblance to a cross (or should it be vice versa?).

The night before Osiris was killed, there was a massive feast held. (Jesus and the last meal.)

Jesus was famously born in humble surroundings, Horus was too - he was born in a cave or swamp.

My comment on Lilith: brought it up because in some versions of Christianity, she is believed to be Adam's first wife. Now, this version 'died out'. So there is more than one version of Christianity - why should the Adam and Eve story be the truth? Or why should any of it be THE truth?

FBF, I was going to bring up the mummification story too, in later evidence, but it was stolen by Lestat. ;) Do you know that one of the main symbols of Osiris, the Djed column, also represents a phallus (and conveys strength and unity)?
 

finders

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#45
The whole Jesus God story is just that a STORY!
Its been changed and manipulated many, many times down the centuries to suit the ruling religious class of the time.
 

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#46
Lestat said:
My beliefs are well known on these boards. So yes, of course they are my beliefs...i've never claimed otherwise.

Regarding Osiris, Horus re Egyptian mythology and the pagan roots of Christians....

Who knows, no one really. We are talking about the beliefs of a people that lived 5000 years ago.

However, you'd have to agree it all seems rather sus...doesn't it Skipper.

I have no doubt that Christianity has its origins from God. And Jesus was a prophet of God, and his message I have no doubt whatsoever is divine in nature.

But not todays Christianity. The message has been corrupted. Mind you, Christianity is not alone in this regards. All the religons have been corrupted in some for or another. Judism, Christianity, Islam, Budhism, Hindu...you name it. It is in mans nature to corrupt the purest laws of God.

The trinity itself is a pagan concept.

It comes up all over the place in pagan mythology. Romulas, Remus and the she-wolf. Osiris, Isis, and Horus. The ancient Egyptians believed that the pharoah was the living incarnation of Horus, the god on Earth. When he died, he became Osiris, the God of the Underworld. And the dead pharoah's son, became Horus. And Isis, the Goddess of the Moon, and Re-birth was the keeper of the Ankh (the key of life....looks awfully like a cross, you may have seen it).

With the ankh, Isis bought to life all new born babies by inserting the key into the nose of the infant, and turning it. Now these aren't my beliefs at all skipper, they are what the books i've read are saying about Ancient Egyptian mythology. This is the supposed religon of the ancient egyptians.

Now seriously....how similar is that to the 'father, the son and the holy spirit'.

Now, considering that not once in the Bible does Jesus say that he is the son of god. or that he is divine in any way...or that the trinity is not mentioned at all in the bible, I always wonder where these beliefs came from. They came from a man who was a self confessed enemy of Jesus, who apparently fell of a donkey on the road to damascus, saw the light, and proceeded to spread lies about the teachings of Jesus.

And 300 years later, a conference in Nicea held by a self confessed pagan emperor of Rome who refused to convert to Christianity (till he was on his death bed...tell me, how do you know that someone converted to Christianity, when he's breathing his last breath), oversaw a conference in which some of Jesus's teachings were suppressed, and the trinity was placed as Christian Law.

Forgive me for being slightly bemused!
L.

I forgive you. :D

seriously, give me some time to digest. thanks for your response.

(BTW did you see I picked Collingwood to make the GF next year :) )
 

Lestat

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#48
BomberGal said:
My comment on Lilith: brought it up because in some versions of Christianity, she is believed to be Adam's first wife.
Supposed to be Adam's first wife that refused to 'tow the line' and take orders from Adam. In a nutshell, she apparently demanded equality with Adam and as a result fell from grace in the eyes of God, and joined Satan down at punt road. ;)

Some believe that she is a metaphor for Satan.
 

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#50
What an imagination some of you have, there are so many filthy lies here I wouldn't know where to start. Where is all your proof that the New Testament writers borrowed parts of these ancient mythologies? I am reading a lot of rubbish here with not much supporting evidence, all you have done is picked out a few dubious similarities at best.

Lestat I am not surprised you reject the divinity of Christ as you have chosen to follow the teachings of a warmonger. Jesus did indeed claim to be God in the flesh and it is in the Bible. How can a mere human be worthy enough to pay the sins for all of humanity? But thats right the Qu'ran denies the crucifixion, and without even a plausible explanation.
 
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