Lets get this straight, It's NOT about Christ

Freo Big Fella

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#51
Birdy said:
What an imagination some of you have, there are so many filthy lies here I wouldn't know where to start. Where is all your proof that the New Testament writers borrowed parts of these ancient mythologies? I am reading a lot of rubbish here with not much supporting evidence, all you have done is picked out a few dubious similarities at best.

Lestat I am not surprised you reject the divinity of Christ as you have chosen to follow the teachings of a warmonger. Jesus did indeed claim to be God in the flesh and it is in the Bible. How can a mere human be worthy enough to pay the sins for all of humanity? But thats right the Qu'ran denies the crucifixion, and without even a plausible explanation.

Care to explain these dubious similarities then? and why they came into effect around the time that Christianity was expanding into Eastern Europe and the Middle East/Egypt?

It's widely known that the concept of Christ as a Deity was only widely accepted after the council of Nicea, and plenty of the Gospels that didn't make it into the Bible show him as a kind, benvolent religious leader, who changed the political landscape of the Middle East, but wasn't a god.

How do you know Jesus claimed to be God in the Flesh? Did you know him? or are you basing your supposition on the words of the one man who stood to benefit from the Deification of Jesus, Peter, the first in a long line of profiteering religious dictators.
 

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demon_dave

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#52
funkyfreo said:
Who cares, those pagans probably stole it from some other pagans.

You still cannot deny that Christmas is about the birth of Christ, believe it or not.

This is just a thread to rile fundamental Christians - but there are so many valid and interesting ways to do that then why stoop to this.

It is hardly like you are breaking any just to hand news?
who stole it from .........so on and so on, its all commercial crap
 

BomberGal

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#53
Birdy said:
What an imagination some of you have, there are so many filthy lies here I wouldn't know where to start. Where is all your proof that the New Testament writers borrowed parts of these ancient mythologies? I am reading a lot of rubbish here with not much supporting evidence, all you have done is picked out a few dubious similarities at best.
You haven't answered any queries raised of you here (I asked you a few questions of which I am still waiting for answers), just defended Christianity by saying "oh it's crap, it's crap." I'm happy to have a civilised debate, but this really isn't it.

None of my posts involve lies. I wrote about what the ancient Egyptians believed; no lies there. I wrote about the Christian takeover of Rome; no lies there either. And then I drew parallels.

You seem to claim (you don't actually claim because you don't have evidence or an argument, apparently), that Christianity is 'the' real religion, all true, and other religions are all mythical.

Where is your proof that Christianity is 'true'?

Yes, I know. It's about faith. So where is your proof that all other religions are just a load of stories stuck together?

....

There is none. There is hardly more evidence for Christianity than there is for the Egyptian cults. 2000 years ago you could have had this debate with an Egyptian, who would have been convinced that their religion was in fact the true one, and that all others were myths (although perhaps less so, the Egyptians were pretty open minded and tolerant, they respected other gods too, but you get my point). What's the difference now? Oh, that's right - because Christianity is the 'western' religion. Must be true then.

Don't sit here and tell us it's all crap, give us a decent argument. We've tried pointing out the 'proof' (not that it can ever be proved, but there are pretty strong historical links), and all you've done is tell us it's lies and herecy.
 

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#54
Birdy said:
What an imagination some of you have, there are so many filthy lies here I wouldn't know where to start. Where is all your proof that the New Testament writers borrowed parts of these ancient mythologies? I am reading a lot of rubbish here with not much supporting evidence, all you have done is picked out a few dubious similarities at best.

Lestat I am not surprised you reject the divinity of Christ as you have chosen to follow the teachings of a warmonger. Jesus did indeed claim to be God in the flesh and it is in the Bible. How can a mere human be worthy enough to pay the sins for all of humanity? But thats right the Qu'ran denies the crucifixion, and without even a plausible explanation.
Birdy do you agree your religion is about faith? And the cornerstone of your religion IMO is '' eternal life through salvation'' ?

How your religion got here on this day shouldnt concern you , and we have had this argument before in regards to King James Version versus ''the apocrypha''

http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/

It is your faith that is important not the textual or historical basis in which your religion came by..hey L Ron Hubbard believed in aliens and somehow he may have been right...

But to disregard historical fact..and arent all myths based somewhat on historical fact? Did the Dreamtime NOT happen because you believe it to be myth?
 

MightyFighting

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#57
Lestat said:
And 300 years later, a conference in Nicea held by a self confessed pagan emperor of Rome who refused to convert to Christianity (till he was on his death bed...
That’s actually a misconception. It was common, at that time, for Christians to be baptised on their death-beds, because they believed the act washed away their sins, allowing them to enter heaven (how very convenient ;) ).

(I agree with most of what you’ve said about Christianity though.)
 
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Thread starter #58
Birdy said:
Pessimistic you godless heretic this has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on this board, and that really is an achievement. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, hence the name Christ-mass as you probably only just worked out. It has always been about Jesus, and the absurd attempts by you and the rest of the god haters to hijack Christmas into something of your own making doesn't make it any less so. I suggest you repent now and stop trying to spoil Christmas for everyone else with your politically correct lunacy.

My main point is there are annual complaints that secular soceity has all these things like santa, trees, decorations, presents but neglects god and oh there is no nativity scene in the city square.

All I am sayinfg is there are several churches in melbourne and if each one put out it's own nativity scene there would be more than enough. It's not the City council or Myer or DJ's job to do that.
 
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Thread starter #59
I was thinking about this some more. It's quite hard to determine exactly why the shift happened over 2000 years ago. Christianity was quite radical at the time and would have been regarded as a 'cult' today.

** I can just imagine your average roman overlord - "only one god you say ? I could save a packet on home decoration If i dropped all these roman gods - gilded satues aren't getting any cheaper you know"

Lets face it the santa claus/ father christmas / coca cola thing ony happensd 70 years ago in the USA and its already got the tradition thing about it. Some people think Collingwood play Essendon on anzac day because its been going on for 50 years.


Then I remembered Brazil - only a few hundred years ago when the portuguese (who weren't a bloody as the spanish and a bit more racially tolerant) insisted the african slaves drop their candomble (withchcraft) and adopt christianity.
These people then continued their candomble but took the catholic saints and transpsed them into their religion. on the outside it looked like they had pictures and statues of catholic saints. It shows the blending of the religions could happen from the bottom up as well as top down (probably more likely if you think about it. Today in Brazil you can see little shrines outside houses with catholic statues of saints mixed woth candomble props such as chickens feet, anilmal body parts and other lovely stuff
 

Bombers 2003

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#61
Birdy said:
Christianity is not based on paganism. Horus, Osiris, Mithraism, and whatever else, they are all myths and can be easily refuted.
Birdy Brain.
Mithraism was Christianity's major rival for adherhants in the roman army for at least a century.
 

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Bombers 2003

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#62
BomberGal said:
Oooh, I missed this. Intriguing, especially when you consider what masters and slaves did on Saturnalia.
Though i'm not sure if it's still the custom and would doubt if it was practised during campaigns[it would affect Discipline etc].
 

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#64
Bombers 2003 said:
No Idiot,the 'other rank'became the officer and the officer the 'other rank'.
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Birdy

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#65
Freo Big Fella said:
Care to explain these dubious similarities then? and why they came into effect around the time that Christianity was expanding into Eastern Europe and the Middle East/Egypt?
Well lets see what you found in your other post:

===========

Historical portrayal of God as a man with a White Beard = Historical portrayal of Zeus
Where in the Bible is God portrayed as a man with a white beard, and do you have a source God was portrayed this way? An old man with a white beard, this isn't exactly a unique occurence.

Father Son and Holy Ghost = Osiris, Isis, Horus
So Osiris = father, Isis = mother, Horus = son. Where does the holy ghost come from?

Images of the "Virgin" Mary and Baby Jesus = Eerily similar to images of Isis and her son Horus.
Isis wasn't a virgin. According to the legend, Isis had sex with the corpse of Osiris after she put him back together. Strange thing for a god to do but anyway, what are these other images? So far we have a mother and her son.

Jesus coming back from the dead to save the world from Sin can equal Ra's journey into the Underworld each night and resurfacing in the morning after fighting the Demons of the underworld, or Horus's exile to the Nile Delta and eventual return to unseat Set.
Fighting the bad guys, I think this has been done a few times through history.

Virgin Birth = birth of Athena
Yes after Zeus swallowed Metis and got a headache, Hermes opened Zeus's skull and out popped Athena. This is so similar.

communion = "god eating", where peices of meat were blessed and viewed as being holy when eaten was practiced in many Pagan religions.
Not too sure here but you would think that thanking gods for food would be a common ritual among different cultures.

===========

It's widely known that the concept of Christ as a Deity was only widely accepted after the council of Nicea, and plenty of the Gospels that didn't make it into the Bible show him as a kind, benvolent religious leader, who changed the political landscape of the Middle East, but wasn't a god.
No there is proof that the early Christians recognised Christ as a deity within 20 years of His crucifixion. The gospels that didn't make it in the Bible say plenty of other things that Jesus would not have said. They are not the inspired word of God and shouldn't be used as such.

How do you know Jesus claimed to be God in the Flesh? Did you know him? or are you basing your supposition on the words of the one man who stood to benefit from the Deification of Jesus, Peter, the first in a long line of profiteering religious dictators.
Because that is whats in the Bible, and how exactly did the apostles profit from preaching the word of Jesus? They were all persecuted and met rather grisly ends.
 

Freo Big Fella

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#66
Birdy said:
Well lets see what you found in your other post:

===========


1.Where in the Bible is God portrayed as a man with a white beard, and do you have a source God was portrayed this way? An old man with a white beard, this isn't exactly a unique occurence.


2.So Osiris = father, Isis = mother, Horus = son. Where does the holy ghost come from?


3.Isis wasn't a virgin. According to the legend, Isis had sex with the corpse of Osiris after she put him back together. Strange thing for a god to do but anyway, what are these other images? So far we have a mother and her son.


4.Fighting the bad guys, I think this has been done a few times through history.


5.Yes after Zeus swallowed Metis and got a headache, Hermes opened Zeus's skull and out popped Athena. This is so similar.


6.Not too sure here but you would think that thanking gods for food would be a common ritual among different cultures.

===========


No there is proof that the early Christians recognised Christ as a deity within 20 years of His crucifixion. The gospels that didn't make it in the Bible say plenty of other things that Jesus would not have said. They are not the inspired word of God and shouldn't be used as such.


Because that is whats in the Bible, and how exactly did the apostles profit from preaching the word of Jesus? They were all persecuted and met rather grisly ends.

1. What's in the bible is irrelevant, It's works are mostly original. What I'm talking about is the structures of Worship and the organised aspects of the religion, the stuff that's organised by the corrupt human element. The church itself has promoted that image for time immemorial.

2. :rolleyes: . They're both worshipped as Trinitiy's. That's the similarity. Why did the church structure their Pantheon on this model?

3.




See the similarities. The iconography is exactly the same.

4. Not at that time, where there were only a few different Religions which were regionally dominant. The church used the established religious structures as a means of indoctrination.

5. It's the exact same Imagery though, the children weren't conceived through conventional means and didn't have normal births.

6. But this wasn't "Giving thanks for the food". The meat was thought to be the "Flesh of the God's". As much as you'd like to take credit for ritual cannibalism, it had been done before,

How do you know the current Gospels are the Inspired Word of God? You don't. The bible didn't come by fax from heaven, so there's no conclusive proof that the dissallowed gospels weren't an accurate portrayal of the times.

I'm sorry, but unless you go around preaching against shellfish and synthetic clothing "Because It's in the Bible" doesn't cut it i'm afraid.
 

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#67
BomberGal said:
I'm happy to have a civilised debate, but this really isn't it.






Features of the behaviour of most of my Christian friends are their tolerance and their willingness to treat people as they would like to be treated. In other words, they try to behave in a "Christ-like" way, quite understandable for people who follow "The Perfect Man". It is a pleasure to have a debate with them.


Features of the behaviour of MANY of the BF posters who claim to be believers are their intolerance and unpleasant treatment of other posters. Why these boards attract this type of "Christian" is beyond me. Some present their arguments in such an uncivilised fashion that I sometimes wonder if they're using the old method of arguing BADLY the opposite to what you believe.
 

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#68
Freo Big Fella said:
.

How do you know Jesus claimed to be God in the Flesh? Did you know him? or are you basing your supposition on the words of the one man who stood to benefit from the Deification of Jesus, Peter, the first in a long line of profiteering religious dictators.



Perhaps Birdy can quote from the writings of some of his followers.......................Written while he was ALIVE!
 

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#69
Birdy said:
Well lets see what you found in your other post:

Where in the Bible is God portrayed as a man with a white beard, and do you have a source God was portrayed this way? An old man with a white beard, this isn't exactly a unique occurence.
So you've never seen such a portrayal of God? Right. You know what is meant.

So Osiris = father, Isis = mother, Horus = son. Where does the holy ghost come from?
It's the concept of the three figures. You could also look at it like Osiris = God, Isis = Virgin Mary, Horus = Jesus.

Isis wasn't a virgin. According to the legend, Isis had sex with the corpse of Osiris after she put him back together. Strange thing for a god to do but anyway, what are these other images? So far we have a mother and her son.
So you've completely ignored my post on this topic? Isis was not necessarily a virgin, no, but it was an immaculate conception. The legend says that Seth cut up Osiris's body into 14 parts. Isis found all but the phallus, pieced them together, and concieved a child - thus an immaculate conception. (And her devotion here as the perfect mother/wife figure can be likened to that of the Virgin Mary.)

Fighting the bad guys, I think this has been done a few times through history.
Yeah, but the Pagan stories had it before the Christian ones did.

Because that is whats in the Bible
....and you believe everything you read?

The Koran is true to its religion, complete word of God, but you say it's all mythical and can be refuted, so what makes what's in the bible completely true?
 

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#70
BomberGal said:
To all those who seem to think this is wrong - it's actually true.

2000 odd years ago (and earlier), December 25th was the date of the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere (it's now around December 21st because of the inevitable shift over time). The Roman pagans celebrated the sun's triumph over the cold winter (ie days getting longer) in a festival called Saturnalia, which took place on and around December 25th.

When Christians started to gain power in the Roman Empire, they wanted the Romans to celebrate the birth of Christ. So, they placed the date of the birth of Christ at Saturnalia, in order to placate the Pagans - they would now celebrate a Christian festival, but still feel like they were celebrating Saturnalia if they wished.

I'm not sure when Christ's date of birth is, but it is certainly not December 25th. Christmas was not celebrated until around the 4th century AD (when the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine, came into power - 337AD).

The Isis-Horus story is true enough. In many versions of Egyptian mythology, Horus is believed to have been born around December 25th (as are many other Egyptian deities), and whilst his mother was not 'necessarily' a virgin, it was still an immaculate conception. This was probably a factor in December 25th being chosen for Christmas. (Possibly an attempt to placate the huge Isis cult sector of the Roman pagans, which for a few hundred years had now included the powerful Egyptians.) But then this gets into the whole pagan origins of Christianity itself, and that's another thread in itself. A couple of other things I could mention briefly, though: Horus's father, Osiris, was raised from the dead. Horus fought his uncle Seth (which can be translated as Satan) and was carried to a mountain (similar Jesus-Satan story).

Many also think that taking 3 months of the date of hsi death = his real birth date. As they believed him perfect enough to live 35 (or so) exact years.
 

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#75
BomberGal said:
So you've never seen such a portrayal of God? Right. You know what is meant.
Who cares what God was thought to have looked like? The concept of God was hardly stolen from Zeus and I doubt His appearance was either. A wise old man with a white or grey beard is what most people would immediately think of if they were asked to describe a physical image of God.

It's the concept of the three figures. You could also look at it like Osiris = God, Isis = Virgin Mary, Horus = Jesus.
You can't, for one thing the Egyptian gods are three separate gods and worshipped that way. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the one deity and also Mary was not even a god at all.

So you've completely ignored my post on this topic? Isis was not necessarily a virgin, no, but it was an immaculate conception. The legend says that Seth cut up Osiris's body into 14 parts. Isis found all but the phallus, pieced them together, and concieved a child - thus an immaculate conception. (And her devotion here as the perfect mother/wife figure can be likened to that of the Virgin Mary.)
Not to be picky here but the immaculate conception refers to the birth of Mary not Jesus and means she was not affected by original sin and therefore lived a sinless life. Obviously Egyptian mythology had no concept of original sin so there was no immaculate conception.

Isis did find all the missing pieces except the phallus, but she placed a substitute phallus in it's place, so there is no miracle birth either it was based on real sex, and there are many other differences between the two. All you have is an image of Isis/Horus which looks similar to Mary/Jesus however you have no proof at all that one was copied from the other.

Yeah, but the Pagan stories had it before the Christian ones did.
But they are not even remotely the same!

....and you believe everything you read?

The Koran is true to its religion, complete word of God, but you say it's all mythical and can be refuted, so what makes what's in the bible completely true?
I wasn't calling all other religions mythical when I said that, I meant to say the claims Christianity was copied from them are myths and easily refuted, although I do believe they are mythical too. The Qu'ran is another subject all together and there are plenty of holes to be picked out of it and reasons why it is not the word of God.
 
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