Lets get this straight, It's NOT about Christ

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funkyfreo said:
Who cares, those pagans probably stole it from some other pagans.

You still cannot deny that Christmas is about the birth of Christ, believe it or not.

This is just a thread to rile fundamental Christians - but there are so many valid and interesting ways to do that then why stoop to this.

It is hardly like you are breaking any just to hand news?
Good post
 

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Birdy said:
But that is the point, these gods are separate, they are a triad not a trinity, they are not one god.
They are related. As are God, Mary and Jesus. You can't deny that. God is Jesus's supposed father and Mary is his mother. Osiris is Horus's father and Isis his mother. All hold similar roles.

Proper intercourse did take place, with the substitute.
You can't just ignore the sexual elements of Horus's conception, it's nothing like that of Jesus. It's basically just a normal birth.
Um, no. Why won't you see this? The phallus was MADE OF GOLD. It was not regular intercourse. Last time I checked, you wouldn't be able to conceive with a golden phallus. Seems pretty 'miraculous' to me.
 

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Christmas is a 'word'. Nothing more, nothing less. It coincides with our annual summer holiday when we take a break from work. For many it is also a time for family. For those who wish to celebrate the birth of Jesus then good on 'em, for those who want to celebrate St' Nicolas then good on 'em. For those who just want a good old booze up good on 'em.

Make Christmas what you want, be happy and try to make others happy.
 

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Frodo said:
Christmas is a 'word'. Nothing more, nothing less. It coincides with our annual summer holiday when we take a break from work. For many it is also a time for family. For those who wish to celebrate the birth of Jesus then good on 'em, for those who want to celebrate St' Nicolas then good on 'em. For those who just want a good old booze up good on 'em.

Make Christmas what you want, be happy and try to make others happy.
Fantasic post Frodo, I could not agree more. Just wish some sections of the community had the same idea and allow those who wish to celebrate religion or just a booze up for Xmas, to be left alone.
 
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Frodo said:
Christmas is a 'word'. Nothing more, nothing less. It coincides with our annual summer holiday when we take a break from work. For many it is also a time for family. For those who wish to celebrate the birth of Jesus then good on 'em, for those who want to celebrate St' Nicolas then good on 'em. For those who just want a good old booze up good on 'em.

Make Christmas what you want, be happy and try to make others happy.
Now THAT is a statement I can agree with!
 

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Dear Birdy,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your efforts, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

PerthCrow
 

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otaku said:
tsk tsk tsk - not crediting the original authors Perthcrow. Naughty Naughty
Yes I should have linked my thread I started on this 6 weeks ago...but in the context of this discussion felt it had better impact in a first person basis

This was originally a Dr Laura satire posted on the net by someone, somewhere who definitely is more clever than me
 

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Qsaint said:
Move over Santa, here's Jesus.

A suburban cleric, frustrated at the apparent disappearance of Christ from the Australian notion of Christmas, is exhorting the children of Melbourne to forsake their annual photo opportunity with Santa and get up close with Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Far from the serenity of his parish at St John's in Brunswick West, the Reverend Howard Langmead is brazenly challenging the Santa monopoly in its commercial heartland - the city centre.

The cleric has taken over part of St Paul's Anglican Cathedral and set up a nativity photo service, where children can get dressed up and be photographed in a life-size nativity setting.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/12/15/1102787145336.html

Good on him. Go for it, mate.
 

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BomberGal said:
To all those who seem to think this is wrong - it's actually true.

2000 odd years ago (and earlier), December 25th was the date of the winter solstice in the northern hemisphere (it's now around December 21st because of the inevitable shift over time). The Roman pagans celebrated the sun's triumph over the cold winter (ie days getting longer) in a festival called Saturnalia, which took place on and around December 25th.

When Christians started to gain power in the Roman Empire, they wanted the Romans to celebrate the birth of Christ. So, they placed the date of the birth of Christ at Saturnalia, in order to placate the Pagans - they would now celebrate a Christian festival, but still feel like they were celebrating Saturnalia if they wished.

I'm not sure when Christ's date of birth is, but it is certainly not December 25th. Christmas was not celebrated until around the 4th century AD (when the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine, came into power - 337AD).

The Isis-Horus story is true enough. In many versions of Egyptian mythology, Horus is believed to have been born around December 25th (as are many other Egyptian deities), and whilst his mother was not 'necessarily' a virgin, it was still an immaculate conception. This was probably a factor in December 25th being chosen for Christmas. (Possibly an attempt to placate the huge Isis cult sector of the Roman pagans, which for a few hundred years had now included the powerful Egyptians.) But then this gets into the whole pagan origins of Christianity itself, and that's another thread in itself. A couple of other things I could mention briefly, though: Horus's father, Osiris, was raised from the dead. Horus fought his uncle Seth (which can be translated as Satan) and was carried to a mountain (similar Jesus-Satan story).

However, whatever the festival of December 25th originally was, it is now a celebration of the birth of Christ. Seeing as Christianity is the dominant religion in Western countries, I don't see the problem with openly celebrating the religious meaning of Christmas. For example, if I go to a Muslim country, I'll respect their traditions and religion. Those that come here should do the same. Political correctness has gone far too overboard (sorry for stating the obvious).
Amen to that on political correctness!

So what if Christians celebrate the birthday of Jesus on a day that isn't His birthday? To Christians, the day is still all about Him.







No agreeing with the things on Easter, however. Easter is celebrated when it should be. If you disagree, do your own research - I've got more important things to do today.
 

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PerthCrow said:
Yes I should have linked my thread I started on this 6 weeks ago...but in the context of this discussion felt it had better impact in a first person basis

This was originally a Dr Laura satire posted on the net by someone, somewhere who definitely is more clever than me
Clever, yes. But I feel that it's poor form not to mention that the Christian's believe all that crap's been superseded. It says so somewhere in the New Testament (Hebrews, I think, but don't quote me on that). If you want to object to Christainity, don't stoop to ignorant bollocks like that.
 

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Answers for Lestat

" Jesus replied, 'I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.'"

I challenge any "faithful" believing Christian to move one brick, not a mountain with his sight or words. Have any Christian from the time of Jesus till now been able to do it?

Metaphorically speaking, many Christians have done wonderful things, moving great proverbial mountains (seemingly immoveable barriers hindering their -or God's? - ways).

If the Christian can do all things through Christ who strenghtens them, if only they have faith, the theoretically, yes, of course I can pray and see a mountain move, because it's not myself moving a mountain but God. Don't even bother asking me to try, however. I'm not interested in seeing real life physical mountains moved. Jesus said firmly "do not put the Lord your God to the test." If you are looking for a 'sign', watch the world, watch 2000 year old prophesies come to life, possibly (or probably according to some Christians) coming into life in our lifetime. One world government, an antichrist, a supposed Russian invasion of Israel (particually watch for that one).

You believe in an all-powerful God. Surely if your God is true, your followers would be able to move bricks, if the blessing of your God so rested upon him. Has one muslim ever done anything such as that? But the miracles that have happened at the hands of many Christians, while I have heard nothing of anyone physically moving a brick around, speak for themselves.

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Again, I challenge any Christian to allow himself to get bit by a poisonous rattle snake or cobra and survive its venom.

Does this mean no "Christian" is a real Christian? Did Jesus say that no one will ever be a believer, since they can't lift mountains with their eye sights nor survive deadly poisons?

According to Acts, the apostle Paul did was bitten by a deadly snake and lived, and the islanders of Malta (correct me if I've got the wrong island please) decided to worship him as one having the power of a god (or something of that line) whence then Paul pointed them towards Jesus.
As for placing hands on sick people and seeing them healed - I am not necessarily talking about the healing crusades where a preacher goes down a line of people, watching as they fall over - but I believe that its very possible in the least (and probable if not expected as the norm) that a prayerful Christian with faith can see people healed right now, today. I could look into it for you if you were looking for actual real life healings. No matter what I say, however, will your western mindsets allow you to believe that a miracle is possible? Can you find the faith to believe that something spiritual is able to happen? If there is an all-powerful God, is it so hard to believe that He can act and change things in our world? I believe He can, and has, and is, and will again. Whether you believe it or not, if the Bible says it is so, for Christianity to be true, it must be possible.

The word chariot, to the best of my limited research, seems to imply nothing special. It could imply a team of something, or a wagon. The word certainly has no military implications, and the original word is not the word not normally used for what we think of when we see a chariot in our mind - the war chariot as used by say, the Egyptians. As my research is limited, I could not find a link between the two words (the war-chariot and the word used in Isaiah which I think seems to imply more of a wagon than a war vehicle. Anyway, not sure how that helps the debate. I concur with evo's stance on your Isaiah debate, Lestat. I appreciate the effort and the well-thought out arguements you are putting out, but after carefully reading the passage in a few versions of the Bible, I'm pretty certain Isaiah was not talking about Mohammed when he gave that prophetic utterance.

Just remember - Christianity as seen by most today is far removed from the teachings of Jesus, Peter, Paul, etc., or the words of the Old Testament prophets. Humanism, fear of man, laziness, business and getting caught up in life, etc have all reduced many Bible-believing but not Bible-practising Christians to the morally substandard church of today. It seems to me that the media is especially interested in only the sides of the church who have slipped into moral decay and are presenting a humanistic view to the world. Please, don't judge the teachings of the Bible by the actions of many visible self-professing Christians.

"O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..."

Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God. Now much clearer would you like it to be.
Peter's own books suggest that Peter did believe in Jesus' own Divine-ness. Even in the same sermon you quote as 'proof', I believe Peter spoke of Jesus as being with God. I think this is another example of someone quoting the Bible out of context. 90% of all "Biblical innconstencies" I see on this sight are simply put - misquotes out of context. The other 10% are ones I have not had the time to properly research.

Prove where the land that God told Abraham about was Paran - Mecca, please. In my readings, it seems Abram was guided to Palestine - modern day Israel, which he was promised as an inheritance. Not Mecca. Proof please, not just out of the Koran. (Is it offensive to spell it as Koran, or must it be Quran?)

Ishmael was not the child of God's promise, according to the Old Testament. Isaac was. Abram(aham's) seed was blessed, hence Ishmael becoming the father of a great nation (the Arabs).

Does that clear my p.o.v up, or are there still glaring questions?
 

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PerthCrow said:
Dear Birdy,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your efforts, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)



I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

PerthCrow
1-Or the Law will smite you.
2-It depends on her age and physical attributes.
3-Dont blame 'em either.
4-Because they own you.
5-Why not hire a mafia man to do the job?.
6-Please explain
7-Probably NOT.
8-Naturally.
9-Only if woolen gloves.
10-That's your decision.
 

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PerthCrow - I strongly suggest you read the book of Romans. Some of it reads like an essay, so maybe reading a transliteral version like the CEV, etc, would be a good place to start if you can't get your head around some of it. (I must confess I sometimes need to read a few versions before I understand certain verses). Reading Romans will give you some understanding of the old covenants between God and Israel and how Jesus' death effects these sort of things.

You've gone out of your way to ridicule it, even if you don't believe it or like it, reading Romans would help you understand the Christian viewpoint a bit better.
 
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