Let's talk Ports! Part 2

RussellEbertHandball

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Wasn't there a graphic on free kick count differential (for this year or over past few years, forget which) showing we weren't as hard done by as we all think we are?



and this second graphic is by The Arc Matt Cowgill who wrote the article OGC linked in his post.

 
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OneGreatClub

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So from being in the top five of AFL clubs our facilities are now in the bottom five.
We really do have a lot of uphill work ahead of us. But never mind Liberals, give your money to the needy Crows instead.

Geez I have become so negative of late on here.
 

Ian Jackson

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The AFL integrity unit, or whatever it's called, need to seriously look at umpires that aren't giving an equal amount of frees to both teams.
There problem is not equal frees, it's the inconsistency and the bias to one team particularly early in a game. Are they influencing the game outcome and maybe being targeted by gambling syndicates. Just saying?
 

bomberclifford

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Perceived bias based on free kick count?
I get what you're alluding to in your posts on this topic, and technically, I agree.

However, when a sport evolves to a point where the majority of rules come down to 50/50 decisions, and one umpire sees 17 infringements by one team but only 1 infringement by the other team, then you need to look at it.

Someone, I think it may have been Tribey, did a very telling graphic of that game against North in Tassie showing the slowing of our momentum against the freedom that North had in that game and how it impacted the result. We only lost by 5pts IIRC.

That game was absolutely decided by the umpires.
 

Steve Dore

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I get what you're alluding to in your posts on this topic, and technically, I agree.

However, when a sport evolves to a point where the majority of rules come down to 50/50 decisions, and one umpire sees 17 infringements by one team but only 1 infringement by the other team, then you need to look at it.

Someone, I think it may have been Tribey, did a very telling graphic of that game against North in Tassie showing the slowing of our momentum against the freedom that North had in that game and how it impacted the result. We only lost by 5pts IIRC.

That game was absolutely decided by the umpires.
I'm not saying that umpires don't get it wrong with an apparent bias to one team in a game but using raw free kick counts or discrepancies as proof of this, as so many people do, is complete rubbish.

We have certainly been on the wrong side of some incompetent and seemingly deliberately biased umpiring.
 

bomberclifford

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I'm not saying that umpires don't get it wrong with an apparent bias to one team in a game but using raw free kick counts or discrepancies as proof of this, as so many people do, is complete rubbish.

We have certainly been on the wrong side of some incompetent and seemingly deliberately biased umpiring.
I agree it's not proof, but it's an indicator.

The Sydney v Bulldogs GF should have been investigated.
The North v Port Tassie game should have been investigated.
The Troy Pannel v Crows game should have been investigated.
The Carlton + Jordan Bannister v Port game should have been investigated.
The Hawks v Port 50m Frenzy game should have been investigated.

Each of those games had the result influenced by the umpires.
The best team didn't win. The team that got the best run from the umpires did.

I do realise the 'tin foil hat' aspect to this thinking, but I believe that the consistent adjustment of the rules to be even more arbitrary and grey, is done to give the governing body greater opportunity to get the results they need. Not match fixing, more like tipping the scales towards a desired outcome.


Incompetence would spread evenly.
 

Andre

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There problem is not equal frees, it's the inconsistency and the bias to one team particularly early in a game. Are they influencing the game outcome and maybe being targeted by gambling syndicates. Just saying?
I really want to see a breakdown of free kicks in first and second halves for the last 5 years. More often than not we start with a first half where we are down on frees (inconsistent application), but 'miraculously' we must change our game style at half time regularly, as we get the 'even uppers' when the contest is often dead already.

I'd also like to see a break down of 'free kick value', where for simplicity a free in the forward 50 is worth 3 points, midfield 2 and defense 1. As I'm sure that would also show that Port get more of their free kicks in the back half and midfield then the AFL average (and consequently less in the forward half).

My all time 'favourites' though are when a player takes a mark and gets hit shoulder height and the umpire calls high, making the player go back and allow the opposition to set up, when they wanted to play on. Got to love when they pull those out and disadvantage us (but make their umpiring look 'fairer'). Funny our players lack heads at lots of other times though :rolleyes:
 

theDuckFarmer

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There are three teams out there. I'm not saying umpires make conscious decisions to favour one team over another but subconsciously they absolutely do, it's human nature. We need to understand how to influence this and act upon it as it appears that our strategy of trying to remain in their good books by not complaining is not working.
 

Andre

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I do realise the 'tin foil hat' aspect to this thinking, but I believe that the consistent adjustment of the rules to be even more arbitrary and grey, is done to give the governing body greater opportunity to get the results they need.
This is where it needs to be fixed. The AFL will never admit umpires are incompetent so remove so many rules that are open to interpretation. In theory I hate rules like 'last kick out of bounds is a free', but I'd take that over the rule being interpreted differently for teams and depending where on the ground or what stage of the game it is.

Rules I'd remove any interpretation for:

1. Out of bounds - last kick, opposition free.
2. Knock it through for a behind from in the square - free kick, otherwise not, no matter how blatant.
3. Holding the ball - 2 seconds before tackling - doesn't matter if they've done 0 steps or 5, it's 2 seconds as the prior opportunity.
4. Drop the ball when tackled - free, unless it's lucky enough to fall on your boot and you get in a kick.
5. If a score review is not conclusive pay a goal. People go to see goals.

That'd take out a lot of the questionable ones every game.
 

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Kiss from a Rozee

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We’ve had bikies turn up to training to collect gambling debts, and in the locker rooms after wins.

The sport is ripe for match-fixing. Whether it be umpires or players.
 

Andre

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There are three teams out there. I'm not saying umpires make conscious decisions to favour one team over another but subconsciously they absolutely do, it's human nature. We need to understand how to influence this and act upon it as it appears that our strategy of trying to remain in their good books by not complaining is not working.
International sports like Cricket have long recognised this with umpires, but the AFL refuse to. I'm in support of ex-players becoming umpires, but they shouldn't umpire games with their old sides (if a field umpire). Similarly let umpires state publicly they are a fan of a team and then they can't umpire games involving that team. The latter would humanise them, that they are supporters of clubs just like everyone else, but recognise that could subconsciously affect how they umpire their team, so they don't.

These changes would help improve the integrity of the umpiring in fans eyes.

So many of the AFL's problems though stem from not wanting to admit mistakes and make subsequent changes. Or if the changes are made, they are made down the track and not acknowledged as due to a clear problem. They just need to say 'The system is good, but here's how it can be made even better'. Instead it's always ultra-defensive of any criticism.
 

Lockhart Road

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International sports like Cricket have long recognised this with umpires, but the AFL refuse to. I'm in support of ex-players becoming umpires, but they shouldn't umpire games with their old sides (if a field umpire). Similarly let umpires state publicly they are a fan of a team and then they can't umpire games involving that team. The latter would humanise them, that they are supporters of clubs just like everyone else, but recognise that could subconsciously affect how they umpire their team, so they don't.

These changes would help improve the integrity of the umpiring in fans eyes.

So many of the AFL's problems though stem from not wanting to admit mistakes and make subsequent changes. Or if the changes are made, they are made down the track and not acknowledged as due to a clear problem. They just need to say 'The system is good, but here's how it can be made even better'. Instead it's always ultra-defensive of any criticism.
FPPF would not agree with this. There would firstly have to be absolute proof - I say again absolute PROOF - that the umpire/s were physically and obviously favouring the club they used to play for.
No way, he would maintain, can there be any assumption before the fact that a human being is going to behave in a certain fashion programmed and driven by his personal circumstances and/or history ... until he actually does, and then it’s too late.
And, anyway, when he does, and it’s too late to change or challenge the ‘fixed’ result, nobody in authority takes any notice ... unless there is a march on City Hall by the affected and offended loser club members and supporters ... then ... maybe ... justice will be done ... but, still, too late.
 

Duckimus Prime

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The AFL will never admit umpires are incompetent so remove so many rules that are open to interpretation.
A lot of people say they want the rules to be more black and white and remove interpretation. But then they often say they hated "the hands in the back" rule. That rule was one brought in to remove the interpretation about whether a player is holding his ground, or pushing the opponent in the back. The AFL was terrible for its umpiring of allowing a certain amount of pushing in the back, but not too much. And the level seemed to be different for everyone.
 

Schulzenfest

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A lot of people say they want the rules to be more black and white and remove interpretation. But then they often say they hated "the hands in the back" rule. That rule was one brought in to remove the interpretation about whether a player is holding his ground, or pushing the opponent in the back. The AFL was terrible for its umpiring of allowing a certain amount of pushing in the back, but not too much. And the level seemed to be different for everyone.
I liked the hands in the back rule for this exact reason. Probably the one and only rule change which the AFL have ever made which actually made umpiring the game easier rather than harder. So of course that's the one they reversed.
 
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DazalenkoUBewty

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Loving Houston playing out of the middle.
Would also love Bonner in their too...at some point. If he can polish up a bit in a few areas he'd be a weapon in there. A mid fielder with that pace and elusiveness...yes please.
 

DazalenkoUBewty

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We need to learn how to tackle...tackle fairly, but with intent to inflict pain.
 
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