Analysis Level-Headed Discussion

[Scodog10]

So are we Lazy/Don't Care or Not Fit enough?

I know we're fitter than some clubs and aren't as fit as others, but the difference isn't enough for us to be so far off breaking even and I think the effort has been there since round 1.

For mine those numbers are a pure system breakdown and a lack of emphasis on the importance of spreading plus shutting the opposition spread down.

It isn't an age issue and isn't an experience issue because Fremantle are in the same spot. What we're doing just isn't working and I'd love us to have the courage to make serious changes over the next month. The changes may not save the season, but like the Bulldogs in 2014 when they started to emphasise uncontested ball it may set up the platform for future success.

 

[DWil6]

Zoning defence has been an unmitigated failure this season. Marks inside 50 in game 1 5-16, game 2 10-19, game 3 10-19. That's 54 marks inside 50 against in 3 rounds! It says it's not working. I know the midfield pressure would help but given that's not happening, what's the best plan to fix this? 54 marks inside fwd 50 in 3 games! Outrageous numbers not only because of the incredible amount, but also because of the % of them that have been uncontested!

 

[Leviathan Pie]

Negatives
Pendles must still be sore - if not have to get in the middle. Treloar seemed to spend too much time (starting the qtrs) on the bench.
Wasn't impressed by the coaching. Watching the Saints use the same option time and time again to get it out of their defensive half.

We looked like Robbo had leaked something again. Disinterested, selfish at times.

We looked slow. Part of that is selection options and I imagine why we brought in Goodyear.

Williams injury means big trouble for our small defensive stocks. Thomas & Keefe rookie listings hurting us a bit now. Would like to see Toovey & Frost back in for a bit of leadsership & grunt down back. I know Tooves aint out future but he is a good presence out there and lifts in key moments.

The media wont shut up about the Pies and gloss Richmond being shit for 10 times as long as the Pies.

Positives

Out leading goalkicker in Elliot is out. Varcoe, Steele etc among our best we get back next week. Who was our quickest player out there? I do wonder how different we'd be sitting here at this time of year with Steele.

Broomhead an option as small defender? prefer him on wing/hf but is aggro and a good kick

We started last season blazing and ended by losing to Essendon & Melbourne. Maybe we can reverse it this year. And hey Saints have not beaten us in 6 years. We have more talent left over from 2010 but not by much. They took a more experienced team out today (by age & games).

Aish played a decent game. Howe was ok when moved to the wing. Cloke's form is improving slightly.



.

This is a good thing, if people how happy to accept mediocrity i.e Richmond supporters then let them do so. I hope the media pummel us, we deserve it. It puts the acid on whats wrong and the lack of work done to improve it.

 

[Roverjg]

We haven't played them yet

No we haven't but at least we beat Richmond

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Is it too much to expect players to be able to play both man and zone defence and switch between the two in-game or depending on matchups?

Because we are apparently unwilling or incapable of attempting the former and our execution of the latter is completely ineffectual.

Am I expecting too much of an 18 man team to do what a basketball starting five (ten or more if you include the bench) would consider a no-brainer requirement?

 

[Babylove]

I really think that our core issue today was our defensive pressure. The amount of times that the Saints went end to end and were able to take marks in our defensive 50 was amazing and hard to watch. Having said that I don't think it was our defensive end per say that was the problem. There was no defensive pressure in the forward 50 and limited pressure in the middle of the ground, so the Saints were able to a lot of quality entries into their forward 50, which most defences are going to struggle with.

Its interesting the conversation about 'elite' kicks, because we showed in the NAB that we can be efficient with the ball. However we do have a lot of players who when a bit of pressure comes panic with the ball and bomb it out of their area. This compounded the first point. Because our players were bombing in with panic kicks to our forward line we were turning it over (usually an uncontested intercept mark) and then the forwards provided too little pressure and St Kilda were able to waltz it back down the field.

I don't think its time for panic stations yet as teams have started slow before and gone on to have successful seasons and we are still a developing team. Also we have seen through NAB and parts of the Richmond game that when we bring effort and play to the game plan it works and works well. But at the moment too few players seem prepared to do it consistently, even Treloar and Pendles were down today.

The good thing is most of this is a work rate issue which is above the shoulders. Which also means that it is fixable. But are the players prepared to do the work?

There is an expectation we will make finals this year which should be the pass mark for the season. I think to achieve this we need to go to Perth 3-2. If we go 1-4 or 2-3 its going to be hard to get back. Good teams win when they play badly and good teams can turn their form around quickly. This a litmus test early in the season. We need to have a couple of good wins against sides we should beat before we tackle the Weagles in Perth.

 

[TradeDraft]

I really think that our core issue today was our defensive pressure. The amount of times that the Saints went end to end and were able to take marks in our defensive 50 was amazing and hard to watch. Having said that I don't think it was our defensive end per say that was the problem. There was no defensive pressure in the forward 50 and limited pressure in the middle of the ground, so the Saints were able to a lot of quality entries into their forward 50, which most defences are going to struggle with.

Its interesting the conversation about 'elite' kicks, because we showed in the NAB that we can be efficient with the ball. However we do have a lot of players who when a bit of pressure comes panic with the ball and bomb it out of their area. This compounded the first point. Because our players were bombing in with panic kicks to our forward line we were turning it over (usually an uncontested intercept mark) and then the forwards provided too little pressure and St Kilda were able to waltz it back down the field.

I don't think its time for panic stations yet as teams have started slow before and gone on to have successful seasons and we are still a developing team. Also we have seen through NAB and parts of the Richmond game that when we bring effort and play to the game plan it works and works well. But at the moment too few players seem prepared to do it consistently, even Treloar and Pendles were down today.

The good thing is most of this is a work rate issue which is above the shoulders. Which also means that it is fixable. But are the players prepared to do the work?

There is an expectation we will make finals this year which should be the pass mark for the season. I think to achieve this we need to go to Perth 3-2. If we go 1-4 or 2-3 its going to be hard to get back. Good teams win when they play badly and good teams can turn their form around quickly. This a litmus test early in the season. We need to have a couple of good wins against sides we should beat before we tackle the Weagles in Perth.

Yeah. The Defensive Pressure espically in 2nd Half was Non-Exsistant.

Players had more time and less pressure in the NAB Challange that made them look better then they are.

Agree Pendles and Treloar where not at there Best. Though Treloar copped a Heavy Tag.

What about Dovanorn making them Fit Enough so they can go longer with the Defensive Pressure? and Bucks get them in the Right Frame of Mind to do it?

 

[surfer1]

to me its about lack of discipline which is astounding since Bucks is coach. Whatever spin you want to put on it if some of our players tested positive to recreational drugs in the off season and the club has done nothing about it internally then it sends a shit signal

 

[TradeDraft]

to me its about lack of discipline which is astounding since Bucks is coach. Whatever spin you want to put on it if some of our players tested positive to recreational drugs in the off season and the club has done nothing about it internally then it sends a shit signal

How do we know nothing has been Done Internally?

 

[surfer1]

How do we know nothing has been Done Internally?

We don't just bleeding a bit at the moment Dave trying to work out what is going wrong

 

[Babylove]

Yeah. The Defensive Pressure espically in 2nd Half was Non-Exsistant.

Players had more time and less pressure in the NAB Challange that made them look better then they are.

Agree Pendles and Treloar where not at there Best. Though Treloar copped a Heavy Tag.

What about Dovanorn making them Fit Enough so they can go longer with the Defensive Pressure? and Bucks get them in the Right Frame of Mind to do it?

From everything we have been hearing on Deveron fitness shouldn't be an issue, and if players seriously need to be motivated by the coach every week to do what they get paid very generously to do then we do have a serious issue. The issues we saw today I think are player driven not coach/support staff driven. I'm not saying one way or another what Bucks & Deveron's performance/qualifications are (there are plenty of threads to discuss that). But that simply wasn't the issue against the Saints.

 

[Matt_352]

And I can't find the positives thread.

But yeah, we're not as shit as Carlton.

Don't count your chickens

 

[TradeDraft]

From everything we have been hearing on Deveron fitness shouldn't be an issue, and if players seriously need to be motivated by the coach every week to do what they get paid very generously to do then we do have a serious issue. The issues we saw today I think are player driven not coach/support staff driven. I'm not saying one way or another what Bucks & Deveron's performance/qualifications are (there are plenty of threads to discuss that). But that simply wasn't the issue against the Saints.

So is the Culture in the Playing Group being the Problem IF it is just about the Players?

 

[THATSGOLD]

Saints kicked to the opposite side of the ground and caught us out 7-8 times then went up that wing with numbers. Our players weren't prepared to run hard enough to counter for their loose players.

This is either a lack of coaching or players can't be bothered putting in the effort issue. You decide.

 

[Babylove]

So is the Culture in the Playing Group being the Problem IF it is just about the Players?

Hard to tell yet as 3 weeks is a small sample size. Externally it looks like we have players that have the right attitude, and evidently that has been a big factor in our recruitment over the last few years. But this isn't translating onfield so far this year.

Whether it's a case of arrogance and us getting ahead of ourselves, whether our inexperience is playing apart, or if there is some more deep seated cultural issues at play it is probably too early to tell.

However it is up to player to do the work, the coaches can't do it for them. I think it's too easy to blame the coach in these situations and it unnecessarily lets the players off the hook when the opposite needs to occur.

 

[MyManLynch]

I'm afraid I left my level head at the pub.

 

[Dubaimagpie]

I remember watching the pre season game against Geelong where we were playing on at all costs and kicking the ball to the "hot spot" 45m out from goal. Gerard Healy made the comment a number of times that his spies reported that the Pies were practicing this all the time.

Where has this game plan gone I wonder because the games I've seen so far doesn't resemble that at all


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[MyManLynch]

I remember watching the pre season game against Geelong where we were playing on at all costs and kicking the ball to the "hot spot" 45m out from goal. Gerard Healy made the comment a number of times that his spies reported that the Pies were practicing this all the time.

Where has this game plan gone I wonder because the games I've seen so far doesn't resemble that at all


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Saving it for September

 

[Finnishpie]

I remember watching the pre season game against Geelong where we were playing on at all costs and kicking the ball to the "hot spot" 45m out from goal. Gerard Healy made the comment a number of times that his spies reported that the Pies were practicing this all the time.

Where has this game plan gone I wonder because the games I've seen so far doesn't resemble that at all


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Really good point. Another, related question, is what happened between pre-season and now. Yes, we got smashed by Sydney, but then I thought we'd improve and start to look more like we did during the NAB. But we seem to have gone backwards. How? Why?

 

[BPikkers]

The sad thing is the way we are performing, GWS are going to receive a top 4 pick in the draft. if that is the case, it is reasonable to question, regardless of how good treloar is, whether we would have been better off with 2 top ten picks. with 2 top potential talents, you could fill 2 holes with different types of players.

Anyway, I'm hoping what we are seeing is the result of a different training program. Maybe with the second half fadeouts over the past couple of years, the pre-season was modified to be counter this. I look at the game and the guys dont seem to be keeping up. Surely (or hopefully) they arent running hard because their fitness hasnt peaked.

I think it also shows how important Swan has been over the years. Even though he may have slowed a little, he was everywhere. Whether it was running out of congestions, being a link up player, or running around in defense, he played a number of roles. Apart from Sidebottom, I'm not sure we have another player who is as elite a runner.

Is it that we are finding it difficult to adapt to the reduced rotations or 10 metre rule? Anyway, so many unanswered questions.

 

[MrNatural]

Our issues stem from our inability to hit targets by foot.
Once we are pinned back into defence, we find it very difficult to find a way out.
However, on the reverse, most teams seem to pick apart our zone and can easily penetrate through it and then expose our defence by moving the ball quickly.
I am a Buckley lover, but i really don't know what our gameplan or mantra is?
We don't seem to have anything that makes us different or damaging to other teams.
We can blame injuries, but the fact is, all teams have injuries to players, teams that deal with them are generally the better teams.

 

[Schraderbrau]

It isn't an age issue and isn't an experience issue because Fremantle are in the same spot. What we're doing just isn't working and I'd love us to have the courage to make serious changes over the next month. The changes may not save the season, but like the Bulldogs in 2014 when they started to emphasise uncontested ball it may set up the platform for future success.

We've still completely wasted a preseason though which is very disappointing made moreso by the fact that it's not as if we weren't given any prior warning about new rule changes. That uncontested possession stat demonstrates how poor a misjudgment Buckley has made and if it remains there I'd say it almost justifies sacking him. If we have to make a decision, and given the age of key players on our list it would be much better to pay him out this season than risk wasting another preseason.

 

[cleomenes]

All of the criticism seems directed at the defence, but Buckley's targetting of the forwards is more relevant. The commitment was poor at that end of the ground, and in the middle too, but of greater importance was the organisation of the forward line. We were always outnumbered there, and the spare St Kilda player always had time to take the ball and look for the overlap to develop, as it always did. They were prepared for the way we were going to defend our forward area, and they were ruthless in exploiting the weakness.
When the chain starts with little pressure, the forward thrust that follows is dependant on the quality of the disposals, and is largely out of our team's hands. The occasional extraordinary effort may break up an attack, but this is hardly something that can be relied upon. As this game went, the effort fell away as it became clear that the setup was at fault, and manic chasing was not going to run down a man with the ball 15 metre away. The chain of loose men as each of our players peeled off to pressure the advancing runner, exposing the next man was truly depressing to watch.
The theory that if you start off with one man short up forward to ensure that you have the last man in defence has failed us three times this year. Opposition teams are well prepared for it, and they won't be getting less prepared.
In creating a method to minimise over the back goals, we have exposed ourselves to easy goals from good passes into the forward line to leading players.
On the other hand, we seem completely nonplussed when it comes to exiting our own defence. This was obvious in the NAB games, and hasn't changed.
Varcoe papered over the cracks in the NAB, but if we are reliant on one player for the success of our entire game style, we will not go far.
The loss of Swan was a heavy hit, but it has to be managed.

 

[Schraderbrau]

The sad thing is the way we are performing, GWS are going to receive a top 4 pick in the draft. if that is the case, it is reasonable to question, regardless of how good treloar is, whether we would have been better off with 2 top ten picks. with 2 top potential talents, you could fill 2 holes with different types of players.

Anyway, I'm hoping what we are seeing is the result of a different training program. Maybe with the second half fadeouts over the past couple of years, the pre-season was modified to be counter this. I look at the game and the guys dont seem to be keeping up. Surely (or hopefully) they arent running hard because their fitness hasnt peaked.

I think it also shows how important Swan has been over the years. Even though he may have slowed a little, he was everywhere. Whether it was running out of congestions, being a link up player, or running around in defense, he played a number of roles. Apart from Sidebottom, I'm not sure we have another player who is as elite a runner.

Is it that we are finding it difficult to adapt to the reduced rotations or 10 metre rule? Anyway, so many unanswered questions.

I'd still take Treloar tbh.

 

[sloth6]

We either have the dumbest players in the comp or they don't know what to do on the field. The ridiculous short kicking the saints were allowed and then one of theirs standing on their own inside F50.

I'll lean toward towards the second one.

You're right with the first point Sherrin.

Aside from say Pendles, Sidebottom, Reid and I'll include Treloar, no other player has a football brain or footy smarts. Our decision making collectively and skill execution is deplorable.

Case in point - Adam Oxley. He did the kick the goal but fcck me, how he did I'll never know!

He is a right foot kick and there's at least four or five blokes within 10 or so metres from where the mark was taken. Why on earth would he call for a handball running onto his left foot and with no space in front of him.

The bloke who took the mark (can't remember) should've never have given it in the first place.

Just dumb football and it happens all the time.

You could say that Buckley gets out coached every week, but the game plan we've implemented just makes it so easy for opposition teams and coaches.

You'd just let blokes like Frost, Brown, Adams kick the footy caus you know they'll just give straight back. Brown kicks it high as he does long every time, Adams just butchers it full stop and I just wouldn't bother manning frost up, id want him to get the footy caus when he turns it over he'll be so far away from his man it won't matter. Easy goal back the other way.

Tackling has been an issue for a while along with letting opposition teams just waltzing out of forward line. Front and square crumbling is non existent and the zone defence just isn't working. We are too easily scored against while we rarely kick any 'easy' goals anymore.

We fumble far too often, do we actually have many one touch players? Is there a player in the competition that fumbles more than Tyson 'fumbles' Goldsack?

We were 8 and 3 last year at the half way mark, we are a long way off playing that type of footy.

Something needs to change and it needs to happen now or it's going to be a long year.

Essendon will beat us if we continue to dish up this rubbish.