Analysis Level-Headed Discussion

[TradeDraft]

At last a thread where Chicken Little is not allowed. I'm an optimist. Last year when Richmond belted us I was criticized for suggesting things might be better against Geelong the following week. This season has a long way to go but I'd like to see more signs that we're on the cusp. I believe Buckley has a good football brain and I recognise that we have some good young talent. Clearly so do the other clubs. I'm prepare to give these guys time but I need to commitment every week.

Bucks has had 4 Years - You think see some Improvement

 

[jmac70]

Bucks has had 4 Years - You think see some Improvement

And at the end of next year he will have had six.

 

[BPikkers]

What's also disappointing is the experienced players are not doing enough. The team is still very young, so you can't afford for the guys with 100 games under their belt to not lead and play well. Having Sidebottom, Swan, Varcoe etc out means the likes of Cloke really need to stand up.

Personally, I'd give Pendles a week or two off to get himself right.

I'd also seriously start reading the riot act to Cloke. Bucks seems to protect him against any criticism but the fact is that he should be in our top 3 players and just doesn't seem to stand up when the team needs him to.

Obviously Sidebottom and possibly Varcoe come back into the team. Maybe White? Load the forward line with Reid (although I still think he is our best backman), Cloke and Moore. Get White on to the backline with Frost.

Maynard needs a stint in the seconds. Toovey from even more experience to come in? Macaffer needs to stay out. Oxley would need to make way. Is Marley Williams injured? As I need another to go out. Finally Goldsack is really only any cause on the forward line these days if he brings his tackling game. If not, get him out.

I still think big Cox is worth a go. I bet he shows a lot more fight that Grundy who has been really disappointing.

And finally, why are we in this position? We are a club with the number 1 facilities in the country. Number 1 in members. If things don't improve by end of the year, there should be a complete review of the whole club and in particular Derek Hine and his team. I can't help but think our recruiting could have been a lot better over the years. I look at the exciting talent other clubs have brought on over the past 3 or 4 years and how unimaginative our recruiters have been. There was a real opportunity to trade late picks to clubs with academies but we seemed to have been left behind. Not sure whether we were asleep at the wheel or what. And like I have said in the past, we need another key forward. Cloke is finished. We should have done a lot more to get someone or at least put us in a position to draft someone. If Sier turns out to be something, I'll be surprised. He was a real punt, but I'm not too sure we were in a position to take such a punt

 

[jmac70]

What's also disappointing is the experienced players are not doing enough. The team is still very young, so you can't afford for the guys with 100 games under their belt to not lead and play well. Having Sidebottom, Swan, Varcoe etc out means the likes of Cloke really need to stand up.

Personally, I'd give Pendles a week or two off to get himself right.

I'd also seriously start reading the riot act to Cloke. Bucks seems to protect him against any criticism but the fact is that he should be in our top 3 players and just doesn't seem to stand up when the team needs him to.

Obviously Sidebottom and possibly Varcoe come back into the team. Maybe White? Load the forward line with Reid (although I still think he is our best backman), Cloke and Moore. Get White on to the backline with Frost.

Maynard needs a stint in the seconds. Toovey from even more experience to come in? Macaffer needs to go out. Oxley would need to make way. Is Marley Williams injured? As I need another to go out. Finally Goldsack is really only any cause on the forward line these days if he brings his tackling game. If not, get him out.

I still think big Cox is worth a go. I bet he shows a lot more fight that Grundy who has been really disappointing.

And finally, why are we in this position? We are a club with the number 1 facilities in the country. Number 1 in members. If things don't improve by end of the year, there should be a complete review of the whole club and in particular Derek Hine and his team. I can't help but think our recruiting could have been a lot better over the years. I look at the exciting talent other clubs have brought on over the past 3 or 4 years and how unimaginative our recruiters have been. There was a real opportunity to trade late picks to clubs with academies but we seemed to have been left behind. Not sure whether we were asleep at the wheel or what. And like I have said in the past, we need another key forward. Cloke is finished. We should have done a lot more to get someone or at least put us in a position to draft someone. If Sier turns out to be something, I'll be surprised. He was a real punt, but I'm not too sure we were in a position to take such a punt

I would like to see Pert replaced.

 

[jbuch9]

the defensive structures... my favourite cop out used by coaches. our defensive structures werent set up. yer ok.

we often had 4 or 5 players covering the area of 1 opposition player, and that one player would still get it.

just play 1 on 1 please.

 

[Axl the great]

Confusion reigns in the way we play, so many things look just wrong wrong wrong, There are too many players going to the contest creating congestion around it.
Our transition is awful, players are far too close to the ball carrier when receiving the handball, or they are flat footed and not on the move, this creates stagnation and keeps the opposition tacklers in the contest.
Most of this comes down to spacial awareness, we seem to lack any sort of nous when it comes to getting that first kick or handball to a player in space, this is a fundamental in getting the next player after that in space as well and then ball movement becomes really difficult.

I do not understand why there needs to be 3 to 4 handballs to gain about 5 metres, when one will suffice and the other receivers have time to spread to space or at least have forward momentum, it not only stops you getting an initial burst away, it does not allow those players up the ground to get that first option hence why the eventual kick forward results in yet another contest.

For mine Bucks has it all wrong thinking that coalface contested footy and scrambling it forward to then try and lock it in will have any success on a regular basis? In fact the really good sides move the ball quickly and efficiently and keep possession, they tire the opposition out by working them harder than they are working themselves.

The system is all wrong and melds together to create disorganisation, confusion and slow grinding ball movement which may work on a mud heap in a wet VFL game but won't cut it at AFL level.
I really believe that the above mentioned issues not only result in poor defence and movement but you cannot ask players to work this hard in every area and still expect to kick 15 to 20 goals a game regularly.

Buckley needs to learn that the trick is to be competitive and score and defend the easy way, yes it still requires hard work but there are ways of working hard for regular rewards and very very occasional rewards and we have been in the latter for far to long.

 

[TheBaron]

Bucks has had 4 Years - You think see some Improvement

I think I only said I wanted to see commitment every week. The problem is that everyone, naturally, wants on-going success. It's inevitable that a major list turn over and recruitment of young players will lead to a slide down the ladder. Given the time it take to produce top players and given that some of who looked good at 18 or 19 will turn out to rejects four years will not be enough. After 6 I'd hope some dividends will be apparent. I'm just disappointed that I don't see enough of the raw commitment that says were moving forward and that's down to the players. I suspect some of our recent recruits might be duds.

 

[Piestration]

Too many of our players get sucked into the contest eo when we do win they have no clean way to move it on.

Even more than Clokes kicking I find this my most frustrating thing. How many times do we see 3 or 4 of our players go up for a spoil (sometimes against one opposition player) only to have it flick clear to multiple opposition players that rebound so fast that we are dead in the water. Also our players are always on the attacking side of the opposition so if the ball scrambles out we are usually ahead of the ball and again 5 meters off the pace. I know we should be 1st to the ball but for F?ck sake not everyone at once. Some one needs to be treading water as back-up.

Maybe we are too structured and oppositions capitalize on over commitment and our confusion. I'm sick of seeing lazy players like Stokes, Garlett, etc. get easy ball out the back because they can't be shagged getting to the contest. I understand some players are exceptional at reading the play but easy ball out the back against us is a joke. Any team will look quick if we allow runners to fly past us in the opposite direction while we are scrambling to turn around.

Another area of issue is our tackling. We have maybe 3-4 players that can stick a tackle. All the rest are ball watching and just let their opponents side step us with ease.

 

[Big Bryza]

I had the pleasure of watching game today from the top of the ponsford stand. I had the pleasure of seeing how ineffective our game plan was. Zoning needs to go. It has to. We can execute it. The season is doomed if we don't drop it.

Either way it was good to see Oxley taking some grabs and Howe wasn't too bad.

Howe wasn't too good either.

Our zoning is horrendous. We could actually defend last season, right now it's non existent.

 

[Piestration]

Howe wasn't too good either.

Our zoning is horrendous. We could actually defend last season, right now it's non existent.

Buckley is trying to build a team of all rounders that can play in multiple positions to eliminate the dependence on so few. This is OK in theory but it is proving hard when your list hasn't been built on the skilled ball uses required.

And our defensive structure hasn't been helped by the fact we can't get any continuity going on down there.

Reid out / Reid in.
Marsh in / Marsh out.
Maynard in / out / in.
Frost in / Frost out.
Ramsay Out / in / out.
Toovey in / Toovey out.
Williams Out / in / out.
Langdon Back / Forward / Back
White Forward / Back / Out / Never to return

You get what I'm saying.

 

[left at home]

just need to settle the team and play them for a block of 4-6 weeks with out to many changes no matter what happens
barring injury of course

 

[Vicky Park]

An article in The Age today refers to 'business as usual' and a lack of midfield leadership at the Pies:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...o-embrace-responsibility-20160410-go2woj.html

The issue of our on field leadership has been covered before.

But the 'business as usual' bit concerns me. I am rapidly redefining my expectations for this year - downwards - and I can live with that if the club admits there is a problem and starts to redress it. I want to see improvement from here; it can be steady and unspectacular and doesn't even have to be in the form of wins. I can live with another year out of the finals, but we must finish the year in better form than how we have started. This form slump has been in place since last June. My highly resourced club needs to take the blinkers off and start to address our problems. We also have to work with the player personnel we have, and help them individually and collectively to get better. I am seeing some highly touted and highly paid footballers under performing. Its not panic stations and it should not be a witch hunt. Sacking anybody (Bucks being the obvious current candidate) mid-season is not the answer, and reeks of the desperation and mismanagement of other lesser clubs. We are better than that.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

An article in The Age today refers to 'business as usual' and a lack of midfield leadership at the Pies:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...o-embrace-responsibility-20160410-go2woj.html

The issue of our on field leadership has been covered before.

But the 'business as usual' bit concerns me. I am rapidly redefining my expectations for this year - downwards - and I can live with that if the club admits there is a problem and starts to redress it. I want to see improvement from here; it can be steady and unspectacular and doesn't even have to be in the form of wins. I can live with another year out of the finals, but we must finish the year in better form than how we have started. This form slump has been in place since last June. My highly resourced club needs to take the blinkers off and start to address our problems. We also have to work with the player personnel we have, and help them individually and collectively to get better. I am seeing some highly touted and highly paid footballers under performing. Its not panic stations and it should not be a witch hunt. Sacking anybody (Bucks being the obvious current candidate) mid-season is not the answer, and reeks of the desperation and mismanagement of other lesser clubs. We are better than that.

I watched the interview with Fas yesterday
It was quite disconcerting because he was very laid back about our current predicament.
At least twice he said "its round three for God's sake" as if that was reason enough not to be concerned.
I'm not naive enough to think he doesn't want to panic people or that he doesn't have a great deal of faith in this current group, but I think he should have at least talked with slightly more urgency (he did acknowledge our lack of pressure and his own failings but again he was fairly relaxed about it)

 

[Vicky Park]

I watched the interview with Fas yesterday
It was quite disconcerting because he was very laid back about our current predicament.
At least twice he said "its round three for God's sake" as if that was reason enough not to be concerned.
I'm not naive enough to think he doesn't want to panic people or that he doesn't have a great deal of faith in this current group, but I think he should have at least talked with slightly more urgency (he did acknowledge our lack of pressure and his own failings but again he was fairly relaxed about it)

Being relaxed is very concerning.

 

[thetruth000001]

After 3 rounds last year
North and West Coast 1 and 2
Pies Gws Ess 2 and 1

Just wait a bit first

 

[PicaBoo]

Well I have to agree with Faz. Knee jerk reactions. Sack coach, gameplan sux, players are worst ever. Meh. Consensus was that this year would be the make or break. Well so far things haven't really gone according to plan on and off the field. That won't last long hopefully. Players will come back, get into form and newbies will develop.
At the end of the year we would have seen the good and bad times and if it is overall bad Bucks will have to go. Till then, stop complaining please.

 

[Scodog10]

After 3 rounds last year
North and West Coast 1 and 2
Pies Gws Ess 2 and 1

Just wait a bit first

Either of them have a % in the 60's and were they in the bottom couple of most statistical categories throughout the league? Comparisons to other teams from other years ignores the quality of football we're playing currently which is horrendous.

FWIW West Coast had lost to the eventual minor premier and the Dogs on the road which were hardly the embarrassments of our first two losses and our daylight robbery win.

 

[TheWing121]

I think St Kilda are a bit like the dogs a couple of years ago, young quick and talented. Who feed off each other and will be very up and down. beat good sides then get smashed by average sides a week later.
A couple of things I noticed
- Our entry inside 50 was shocking, I remember the commentator's saying at 1 point we had given up 17 intercept marks in the 50. I am not sure if it was poor kicking, different structure i.e. with 1 less tall than last week or a combination. These days plays are setup from the backline and this allowed St Kilda to typically rebound and kick goals and make our defence look average
- Clearances we actually won the clearances for once which is a good sign its just the polish to finish off that we lacked. Hopefully sidey and varcoe can add that
- On average we were 1 and half years younger and 20 games less than saints. Also look at our stars vs theirs. I hardly think Reidwoldt / Cloke, Pendles / Montaga, Treloar / Steven, Reid / Gilbert. There guns played well and ours were average. Although Pendles ended up pretty good stats wise and is clearly injured, he wasn't at his same damaging self

Not a great game and we were very down on pressure and intensity, hopefully we will bounce back. I am not sure if bringing in Witts / Cox is a great way to improve our forward line who didn't really tackle. Overall I am hoping we are just in bad form and will improve against Melbourne next week

 

[Markfs]

i'd actually offer Travis about $500K a year and if he wants to leave, then so be it. We let the big Sav go years ago....

And while I'm at it, I would sit Nathan Brown down and have a discussion with him.

I feel better now that I've got that off my chest..

 

[TradeDraft]

An article in The Age today refers to 'business as usual' and a lack of midfield leadership at the Pies:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...o-embrace-responsibility-20160410-go2woj.html

The issue of our on field leadership has been covered before.

But the 'business as usual' bit concerns me. I am rapidly redefining my expectations for this year - downwards - and I can live with that if the club admits there is a problem and starts to redress it. I want to see improvement from here; it can be steady and unspectacular and doesn't even have to be in the form of wins. I can live with another year out of the finals, but we must finish the year in better form than how we have started. This form slump has been in place since last June. My highly resourced club needs to take the blinkers off and start to address our problems. We also have to work with the player personnel we have, and help them individually and collectively to get better. I am seeing some highly touted and highly paid footballers under performing. Its not panic stations and it should not be a witch hunt. Sacking anybody (Bucks being the obvious current candidate) mid-season is not the answer, and reeks of the desperation and mismanagement of other lesser clubs. We are better than that.

Does worry me too. IF they think everything is okay then they are Deluded and might need people don't accept the Crap we dished up in 1st 3 rounds

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The

Source?

 

[Unknown Identity]

Source?

Haha.. dunno what was happening there but that's clearly the most level headed thing i could come up with.

 

[No SPIN]

Lyon and Simpson implemented new game plans that looked very poor until bedded dwon by the players. In both cases their teams were very poor until this game plan was mastered.
The taxing high pressure game plan that gave us 8-3 results in the last 2 season could not survive under a 90 interchnage cap, and a poor second half of the season would again have been likley this season.
So Bucks unveiled a new game plan in the NAB series that excited us all - but the proper season is a different beast.
We are now seeing the disorganisation that a new game plan brings just as we saw with Freo and WC.

It will take time for our players to master the new plan - whether its the right game plan only time will tell.

 

[Aishole]

Just a question but does anyone recall any switches of play on the weekend? Because watching other games over the weekend i noticed teams using it quite often, but i don't seem to see collingwood do it often, or that i recall anyways. All i remember is lots of kicks down the line to a contest, no fluency

 

[left at home]

And while I'm at it, I would sit Nathan Brown down and have a discussion with him.

what would you say to browny