Draft Profile Liam Stocker

Arr0w

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Why would our Talent identification come into question, Stocker at the Crows would not come close to 200 games, he would not have gotten a game this year. While he may be suitable to Carlton his style of play not what we needed. Maybe in 4 years when a few of our inside players get older,
Look at who we selected and you may get a better picture. the Games moving on endurance, defensive pressure with a bit of speed are the new weapons,
May get a better picture? Your kidding right

Surely you are not suggesting, the Crows couldn't find a spot for a Viney, Brayshaw, Crouch type?

You don't draft for the now, a mid takes 2-4 years before you start to benefit
 

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Sounds to me like everyone knows Stocker can football, the question marks are really just how much of an upside he has. This is the main reason 'overagers' tend to slide a little, as did Higgins, is that clubs don't believe there's as much upside in these kids as there is in a less developed just-18 year old.

I like that Carlton backed themselves and their list, they've drawn the line that says 'talent is here, time to develop and deliver' on the 2018 draft crop.

Walsh is as close to a safe bet for a high quality 200 game midfielder as they'd have found in this draft, there's 0 commentary regarding any doubts on his ability to make the level. Carlton didn't need a flashy game-breaker like Rankine, they needed midfielder(s) who were close to guaranteed AFL quality.

I think their strategy this year was a calculated gamble; Walsh & Stocker both seem like safe bets to be AFL quality midfielders, the SA boys may have more upside, but also carry risk of go-home, ability to impact consistently, and/or list needs.

Worst case scenario it's 2019 Pick 1 for Stocker + 2019 Pick 18, better case is somewhere in the middle, Crows to make finals and Carlton to come 16th means more like 2019 Pick 3 for Stocker and 2019 Pick 14ish.

At some point you have to back your list and development.
 

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Sounds to me like everyone knows Stocker can football, the question marks are really just how much of an upside he has. This is the main reason 'overagers' tend to slide a little, as did Higgins, is that clubs don't believe there's as much upside in these kids as there is in a less developed just-18 year old.

I like that Carlton backed themselves and their list, they've drawn the line that says 'talent is here, time to develop and deliver' on the 2018 draft crop.

Walsh is as close to a safe bet for a high quality 200 game midfielder as they'd have found in this draft, there's 0 commentary regarding any doubts on his ability to make the level. Carlton didn't need a flashy game-breaker like Rankine, they needed midfielder(s) who were close to guaranteed AFL quality.

I think their strategy this year was a calculated gamble; Walsh & Stocker both seem like safe bets to be AFL quality midfielders, the SA boys may have more upside, but also carry risk of go-home, ability to impact consistently, and/or list needs.

Worst case scenario it's 2019 Pick 1 for Stocker + 2019 Pick 18, better case is somewhere in the middle, Crows to make finals and Carlton to come 16th means more like 2019 Pick 3 for Stocker and 2019 Pick 14ish.

At some point you have to back your list and development.
Stocker isn't an "overager", born in 2000, like most of the draftees
 

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And where did I go wrong, the Crow traded 2018 pick 19 and 2019 1st rd pick for Carlton 2019 1st rd pick a potential top 5 pick, pretty
simple, nothing hard about it.
Carlton were the ones after Stocker, not the Crows. again pretty simple to us Stocker was the player Carlton picked, that is all.
so again what did I not understand?
Stocker becmes a good player the trade is win win, if he doesn't Adelaide win the trade. So for you to say that Stocker means nothing in the trade to you is wrong, he is the key to the whole trade.
 

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Thus the emphasis; he's a year out of school as opposed to freshly finished year 12.
Not understanding what you mean, he was born in 2000, like most other draftees. When he started school (must be 5 years old by the 30th of April), makes no difference, to how old they are
 

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Not understanding what you mean, he was born in 2000, like most other draftees. When he started school (must be 5 years old by the 30th of April), makes no difference, to how old they are
For some reason, recruiters mark them down for having a year 'extra' out of school it seems. SPS was similar from memory, dropped a little because he'd played a year out of school.
 

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Stocker becmes a good player the trade is win win, if he doesn't Adelaide win the trade. So for you to say that Stocker means nothing in the trade to you is wrong, he is the key to the whole trade.
You don't get it do you, Stocker is the Player that Carlton, with the Pick they Traded for from the Crows. He important to Carlton and only Carlton, But to us Crows supporters the trade was 2018 pick 19 and 2019 years first for Carlton 2019 1st. that all.
We don't care about the reasons and all the posturing will not change that, all we care about is the potential top 5 pick.
Sorry but we not too fussed about Stocker he just the player you guys used pick 19 on.
But we have a chance for a potential top 5 pick and that is rare for us. Shit top 10 picks are few and far between.
But I guess if you get used to sugar it no longer becomes a treat. so I can understand why you don't get it.
 

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You don't get it do you, Stocker is the Player that Carlton, with the Pick they Traded for from the Crows. He important to Carlton and only Carlton, But to us Crows supporters the trade was 2018 pick 19 and 2019 years first for Carlton 2019 1st. that all.
We don't care about the reasons and all the posturing will not change that, all we care about is the potential top 5 pick.
Sorry but we not too fussed about Stocker he just the player you guys used pick 19 on.
But we have a chance for a potential top 5 pick and that is rare for us. Shit top 10 picks are few and far between.
But I guess if you get used to sugar it no longer becomes a treat. so I can understand why you don't get it.
You don't care?,that's way too arrogant for me. Just remember Adelaide gave us the free pick to get Stocker or who ever we like. Arrogance is Arrogance.:p
 

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You don't care?,that's way too arrogant for me. Just remember Adelaide gave us the free pick to get Stocker or who ever we like. Arrogance is Arrogance.:p
In the same draft we also traded out our pick 24 (which started at pick 19 leading into the draft) for GWS pick 30 and the 2019 2nd they received from Carlton which we hope will be a very low 20's pick after NGA and father son picks. Just like with Stocker, we did not care who GWS picked with pick 24 as we wanted a player that we felt was going to be there a little later and also boosted the 2019 draft further. Personally I don't care how Hill goes at GWS - he is their player not ours - the only time I will give him thought is when the crows play GWS if Hill plays and it will only be along the lines of wanting our players beat their players. The same goes with Stocker. I only care how well they players we draft with the picks we get turn out. So no arrogance, just reality
 

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You don't care?,that's way too arrogant for me. Just remember Adelaide gave us the free pick to get Stocker or who ever we like. Arrogance is Arrogance.:p
You have no Idea, You think it arrogance that we only care about the potential top 5 pick in the 2019 draft.
We also traded pick 24 to GWS for pick 30( Will Hamil) and 2019 Carlton's 2nd rd pick, GWS used that pick on Ian Hill, but nobody thinks that important.

If you think that Crows supporter thinking that a potential top 5 pick is more important than Carlton getting Stocker, is Arrogance then I take that every day.
 

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You dont cough up a 1st rounder for a project player so cant see how you can say that, Sos rated him #6 hardly project type
track wathers as with all clubs only see positives in their new draftee's as with Richmond supporters seeing sydney stack as being a gun of the future before he has been allocated a spot.

Stocker will be a good addition to carltons youth but there will be too much focus on the kid due to this trade, If he was just a normal pick #19 selection he wouldnt have this thread on this board
A forum is about everyone having an opinion. I have watched Stocker train, which is no doubt more than you have done. I have seen the specified training program he is on (in that I see the extra running he does at training). I feel I am in a better position to make comment on him and his progress than you are. As you would be with one of your Richmond first year players.
Stocker went in to the draft as a big-bodied midfielder with concerns around his endurance. His individual training program is obviously based around extra running...and building his endurance. I called him a 'project player' because that's what he is...I don't see him being in our best 22 round 1, and I don't think many carlton people do.
You are correct in saying that SOS rated Stocker as high as pick 6; but that doesn't mean the club think he's ready to go straight away. Many first round selections are developed in the VFL for a variety of reasons. When he breaks in to our best 22 is anyone's guess.
The noise is all coming from outside - the media, Adelaide fans (understandably invested in this), and opposition supporters like you, who have spent a lot of time in this thread. I don't think the Carlton FC will concern themselves too much about those outside noises.
 

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If Stocker goes on to be a 200-300 gamer, with a pick that was traded live, with your recruiters knowing full well he was still on the board, your talent identification will come into question. As would ours, if Stocker is a bust. It is that simple
The bigger question lies on SOS.
He rated him the sixth best in this draft, and was willing to forgo the trade if he wasn’t there at 19. Guys like RCD and Eli Smith weren’t even on his radar. Will be interesting to see how these guys develop over their careers.
 
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The bigger question lies on SOS.
He rated him the sixth best in this draft, and was willing to forgo the trade if he wasn’t there at 19. Guys like RCD and Eli Smith weren’t even on his radar. Will be interesting to see how these guys develop over their careers.
I’m sure they were ‘on his radar’ he just rated Stocker higher.

Will also be interesting to see how Jones, McHenry, Duursma, Butters etc develop, and how their careers transpire.

These guys went earlier than Stocker but aren’t under the microscope almost entirely because their respective list managers haven’t revealed where they were internally ranked.

The reality is Stocker went at Pick 19, and this is how he will be evaluated.
 

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I’m sure they were ‘on his radar’ he just rated Stocker higher.

Will also be interesting to see how Jones, McHenry, Duursma, Butters etc develop, and how their careers transpire.

These guys went earlier than Stocker but aren’t under the microscope almost entirely because their respective list managers haven’t revealed where they were internally ranked.

The reality is Stocker went at Pick 19, and this is how he will be evaluated.
The reality is Carlton wouldn’t have traded for 19 if Stocker wasn’t on the board. SOS had no interest in ponying up a potential top 3 pick for RCD or Eli Smith.

But SOS overlooked these guys, and also a top pick next year because he rated Stocker so highly. So it’s only reasonable to assess Stocker against what was available at pick 19, as well as the first round pick swap this year.
 
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The reality is Carlton wouldn’t have traded for 19 if Stocker wasn’t on the board. SOS had no interest in ponying up a potential top 3 pick for RCD or Eli Smith.

But SOS overlooked these guys, and also a top pick next year because he rated Stocker so highly. So it’s only reasonable to assess Stocker against what was available at pick 19, as well as the first round pick swap this year.
That’s significantly different from your assertion RCD and Ely Smith weren’t on his radar. The only two pieces of information we know with any degree of certainty is that he had Walsh at 1 and Stocker at 6. For all anyone knows he had RCD at 7 and Smith at 8, with a big gap between Stocker and RCD.

He also doesn’t necessarily share the Bigfooty wisdom that we were a bonafide bottom 4 team in 2019, especially prior to Doc going down.

Too many are focusing on the pure metrics of the trade, and the temporary gratification that comes with winning or losing the trade at the conclusion of next season. The fact is the club has taken a long-term view to making the deal, and given we’ve already got many early draft picks on our list, losing one early pick for two later 1st round draft picks isn’t as high-risk as is being insinuated.

We’ve got the main pieces in place, we just need to built around them, which is partly what this trade is signalling.
 

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That’s significantly different from your assertion RCD and Ely Smith weren’t on his radar. The only two pieces of information we know with any degree of certainty is that he had Walsh at 1 and Stocker at 6. For all anyone knows he had RCD at 7 and Smith at 8, with a big gap between Stocker and RCD.
Yep.

But fact is he wouldn’t have done the deal for RCD or Smith. But it is logical to compare them against Stocker as they were drafted right after the Stocker pick.

The flip side of this is that the Stocker trade was the first of its kind, meaning we will also assess the opportunity cost of the trade and players drafted at the traded picks this year as well.

What we do know with certainty is that SOS really, really, really wanted him. I don’t think he would have rated him so highly or given up so much for a second string midfielder.
 

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A forum is about everyone having an opinion. I have watched Stocker train, which is no doubt more than you have done. I have seen the specified training program he is on (in that I see the extra running he does at training). I feel I am in a better position to make comment on him and his progress than you are. As you would be with one of your Richmond first year players.
Stocker went in to the draft as a big-bodied midfielder with concerns around his endurance. His individual training program is obviously based around extra running...and building his endurance. I called him a 'project player' because that's what he is...I don't see him being in our best 22 round 1, and I don't think many carlton people do.
You are correct in saying that SOS rated Stocker as high as pick 6; but that doesn't mean the club think he's ready to go straight away. Many first round selections are developed in the VFL for a variety of reasons. When he breaks in to our best 22 is anyone's guess.
The noise is all coming from outside - the media, Adelaide fans (understandably invested in this), and opposition supporters like you, who have spent a lot of time in this thread. I don't think the Carlton FC will concern themselves too much about those outside noises.
You clearly have a very different idea of what a project player is to just about every body els here, By your definition every young player drafted is a project player. We have RCD , Ross , English , Turner , Stack , all drafted this year but i wouldnt call any of them project players.

Mabior Chol , Ivan Soldo they are project players , A player that either has not played the game before or a player with upside but is so far behind in certain aspects of the game that need work and the chances are very low that he makes it so is considered a project player

Liam Stocker won the Morrish Medal, winning the TAC Cup best and fairest.
was drafted with an early pick #19 and rated the 6th best player by silvagni - Thats not a "Project Player"
 
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You clearly have a very different idea of what a project player is to just about every body els here, By your definition every young player drafted is a project player. We have RCD , Ross , English , Turner , Stack , all drafted this year but i wouldnt call any of them project players.

Mabior Chol , Ivan Soldo they are project players , A player that either has not played the game before or a player with upside but is so far behind in certain aspects of the game that need work and the chances are very low that he makes it so is considered a project player

Liam Stocker won the Morrish Medal, winning the TAC Cup best and fairest.
was drafted with an early pick #19 and rated the 6th best player by silvagni - Thats not a "Project Player"
Again. This is YOUR idea of a project player.
Your argument that Stocker can't be a project player because he is a Morrish Medalist is extremely naive. FYI - since the year 2000, of the 24 Morrish Medal winners (yes, there were joint winners) - only 5 have played more than 100 games and 12 were not even drafted. How does this add to your inane argument that I can't call Liam Stocker a project?
Just another bit of advice; a project can take a day, a week, a month, a year or several years. A project means you are generally working on something. In fact, the meaning of a project is "an individual or collaborative enterprise that is carefully planned to achieve a particular aim".
My idea of project is obviously different to yours...but that's ok. I'm not really sure why you are so worked up about this, and for that matter why you are so interested in Liam Stocker...but whatever floats your boat.
So I'll spell it out for you...Carlton rate Liam Stocker and see him as a long term player for the Carlton FC, but they know he needs to work on his endurance, so they have carefully planned out a program to increase his endurance and two-way running. They obviously rate his skills and ball-winning ability, but they know he is not AFL ready yet in the running stakes. So they (and Liam) are working extremely hard to improve this area of his game, and when he reaches his KPI's in this area, he will most probably play seniors, form permitting. So...he is a project.
But how about we agree to move on. These type of point-scoring posts bore the life out of me, and I'm sure everyone else. I have only answered because you seem limited in your understanding of a project player and are trying a bit too hard to push your own ideas. And again, as I mentioned in another post...this is the Liam Stocker post...no-one gives a stuff about Richmond players.
 

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Again. This is YOUR idea of a project player.
Your argument that Stocker can't be a project player because he is a Morrish Medalist is extremely naive. FYI - since the year 2000, of the 24 Morrish Medal winners (yes, there were joint winners) - only 5 have played more than 100 games and 12 were not even drafted. How does this add to your inane argument that I can't call Liam Stocker a project?
Just another bit of advice; a project can take a day, a week, a month, a year or several years. A project means you are generally working on something. In fact, the meaning of a project is "an individual or collaborative enterprise that is carefully planned to achieve a particular aim".
My idea of project is obviously different to yours...but that's ok. I'm not really sure why you are so worked up about this, and for that matter why you are so interested in Liam Stocker...but whatever floats your boat.
So I'll spell it out for you...Carlton rate Liam Stocker and see him as a long term player for the Carlton FC, but they know he needs to work on his endurance, so they have carefully planned out a program to increase his endurance and two-way running. They obviously rate his skills and ball-winning ability, but they know he is not AFL ready yet in the running stakes. So they (and Liam) are working extremely hard to improve this area of his game, and when he reaches his KPI's in this area, he will most probably play seniors, form permitting. So...he is a project.
But how about we agree to move on. These type of point-scoring posts bore the life out of me, and I'm sure everyone else. I have only answered because you seem limited in your understanding of a project player and are trying a bit too hard to push your own ideas. And again, as I mentioned in another post...this is the Liam Stocker post...no-one gives a stuff about Richmond players.
Dont worry about it mate , Clearly your definition of a project player is different to everybody else's
Dustin Martin must have been a project player as his tank was not big enough
Trent Cotchin must have been a project player as his achillie's were not developed enough when drafted
Dangerfield must have been a project player as his education was not complete and went to crows a year later

Your comment about 5 morrish medallist playing more than 100 games and 12 not being drafted means they can play football but either not at elite level or the ones not drafted could be good enough to win the medal but not good enough to make it. But you seem to have missed the point
Stocker is a good footballer with talent being good enough to be drafted in the 1st round - Project players dont get drafted 1st round


where do you call an end , Lets just agree to disagree
 

RobR

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You have no Idea, You think it arrogance that we only care about the potential top 5 pick in the 2019 draft.
We also traded pick 24 to GWS for pick 30( Will Hamil) and 2019 Carlton's 2nd rd pick, GWS used that pick on Ian Hill, but nobody thinks that important.

If you think that Crows supporter thinking that a potential top 5 pick is more important than Carlton getting Stocker, is Arrogance then I take that every day.
I have no idea? Lets talk facts then, Adelaide haven't got a top 5 pick and you don't know where our pick will be. The only fact is Carlton got Stocker with Adelaides pick 19, the rest is purely conjecture on your part.
 
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Again. This is YOUR idea of a project player.
Your argument that Stocker can't be a project player because he is a Morrish Medalist is extremely naive. FYI - since the year 2000, of the 24 Morrish Medal winners (yes, there were joint winners) - only 5 have played more than 100 games and 12 were not even drafted. How does this add to your inane argument that I can't call Liam Stocker a project?
Just another bit of advice; a project can take a day, a week, a month, a year or several years. A project means you are generally working on something. In fact, the meaning of a project is "an individual or collaborative enterprise that is carefully planned to achieve a particular aim".
My idea of project is obviously different to yours...but that's ok. I'm not really sure why you are so worked up about this, and for that matter why you are so interested in Liam Stocker...but whatever floats your boat.
So I'll spell it out for you...Carlton rate Liam Stocker and see him as a long term player for the Carlton FC, but they know he needs to work on his endurance, so they have carefully planned out a program to increase his endurance and two-way running. They obviously rate his skills and ball-winning ability, but they know he is not AFL ready yet in the running stakes. So they (and Liam) are working extremely hard to improve this area of his game, and when he reaches his KPI's in this area, he will most probably play seniors, form permitting. So...he is a project.
But how about we agree to move on. These type of point-scoring posts bore the life out of me, and I'm sure everyone else. I have only answered because you seem limited in your understanding of a project player and are trying a bit too hard to push your own ideas. And again, as I mentioned in another post...this is the Liam Stocker post...no-one gives a stuff about Richmond players.
I get what you’re saying but all draftees are project players to some extent, and to me, Stocker is almost the complete opposite: ie a surefire AFL player provided he fixes up a few current blindspots.

To me, true project players are reasonably raw and possess some AFL traits, but are a long way off. Stocker isn’t particularly raw, and if all goes well he will debut Round 1.

I do think some underestimate his ceiling though. At worst he will develop into something like Jack Redden - a good quality AFL midfielder - at best he will get to Luke Parker/Lachie Neale level. Here’s hoping.
 
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I have no idea? Lets talk facts then, Adelaide haven't got a top 5 pick and you don't know where our pick will be. The only fact is Carlton got Stocker with Adelaides pick 19, the rest is purely conjecture on your part.
Potential has been the word I have used if you notice, so you say, let's talk Facts. but only if it suits your side.
But we are not going to play by those rules, The fact according to Us Crows supporters is Carlton got Pick 19 and a 1st rd Pick in 2019. and we don't care who you picked because that was not important to us. The same as GWS traded for Pick 24 again we do not care who they selected.

What we care about is Carlton 1st and 2nd rd Pick in 2019, which is potentially a top 5 and a pick between 10 and 25.

Does it really worry you that we don't care who you selected?. and we don't believe that he was the most important part of the deal.
 
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I get what you’re saying but all draftees are project players to some extent, and to me, Stocket is almost the complete opposite: ie a surefire AFL player provided he fixes up a few current blindspots.

To me, true project players are reasonably raw and possess some AFL traits, but are a long way off. Stocker isn’t particularly raw, and if all goes well he will debut Round 1.

I do think some underestimate his ceiling though. At worst he will develop into something like Jack Redden - a good quality AFL midfielder - at best he will get to Luke Parker/Lachie Neale level. Here’s hoping.
Yeah. I think everyone's getting caught up on the word I used. What I'm trying to say is we rate Liam highly, and have a specific plan to prepare him for the two-way running required in AFL footy. The rest of his game looks ready. I just think it may take him a bit longer to build that tank, but am bullish about his prospects going forward.
 

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Potential has been the word I have used if you notice, so you say, let's talk Facts. but only if it suits your side.
But we are not going to play by those rules, The fact according to Us Crows supporters is Carlton got Pick 19 and a 1st rd Pick in 2019. and we don't care who you picked because that was not important to us. The same as GWS traded for Pick 24 again we do not care who they selected.

What we care about is Carlton 1st and 2nd rd Pick in 2019, which is potentially a top 5 and a pick between 10 and 25.

Does it really worry you that we don't care who you selected?. and we don't believe that he was the most important part of the deal.
One of us is on a different planet here, you say again that Stocker or whoever we picked has no bearing on the trade. If Stocker's no good you Adelaide supporters will be saying SOS is a dud, if he turns out good us Carlton supporters will be saying SOS is a genius. I really don't know how you can say the player has no bearing on the trade. Anyway that's enough i'll agree to disagree that's it on the matter from me.
 
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