Draft Profile Liam Stocker

HARKER

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And this goes back to my original question and comment.

Did Carlton genuinely rate Stocker as the 6th best talent in the draft, or 6th best talent on a list needs basis, or 6th best inside/balanced mid in the draft?

I can believe 6th best mid in the draft if you rate;
Walsh
Smith
Caldwell
Duursma
Either Jackson Hately or Tarryn Thomas ahead of Stocker.

I struggle the believe 6th best talent, excluding KPP’s in regards to list needs.

There’s also a scenario where they end up overrating Stocker, as they believe he’ll be available at a pick at the back end of the first round, and he moves up their draft board as a consequence, but this phenomenon is covered much better in the Lystics AFL podcast, than I could explain here.
It was the sixth best player for Carlton and that can mean different things to different clubs.
Clubs don't necessarily care for talent alone, if they don't rate the character and the application to become the best they can be.
Was McCasey the sixth best talent in 2019? Pickett? Weightman?

Pointed it out here before that Carlton recruiters called Stocker a brute and that was evident to me in his first Northern Blues game for the club.
I also don't think Stocker will amount to being seen as the sixth best talent from the draft, but he may yet be the right player for the club.

From the first game I saw, Stocker reminded me of Hodge. He's unlikely to be anywhere as good, but think Hodge.
 

briztoon

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It was the sixth best player for Carlton and that can mean different things to different clubs.
Clubs don't necessarily care for talent alone, if they don't rate the character and the application to become the best they can be.
Was McCasey the sixth best talent in 2019? Pickett? Weightman?

Pointed it out here before that Carlton recruiters called Stocker a brute and that was evident to me in his first Northern Blues game for the club.
I also don't think Stocker will amount to being seen as the sixth best talent from the draft, but he may yet be the right player for the club.

From the first game I saw, Stocker reminded me of Hodge. He's unlikely to be anywhere as good, but think Hodge.
You only have to go back one page where we had this discussion already, and GUMBLETRON put up the Carlton draft night video of SOS talking about Stocker, and Davo-27 commenting that it certainly appears that SOS is saying 6th best over all.

Honestly I have no problem if Stocker was list fit draft selection.

Teams make such picks in the top 10, even though clubs always say they draft best talent available.

I’d point to Adelaide drafting McAsey ahead of Hayden Young as an example of that.

My problem lies in the thought process that occurred before the trade and perceived value of the trade at the time of the trade.

I’ve discussed this in the Stocker thread here, and in the trade thread on the trade page.

I believe the trade was a mistake at the time. And it’s only for the fact that Kemp did his ACL that the draft worked out for Carlton as it did.

Had Kemp not done his ACL, and had a second half of the season akin to Bontempelli in his draft year, then Kemp doesn’t slide past Sydney at 5. Adelaide get their preferred draft target of Stephens at 6. McAsey slides past Fremantle, possibly to Hawthorn.

What does Carlton do at pick 11 then? Still trade out with McAsey and Flanders on the board?

There’s no other Kemp like player available.

The trade looks completely different in such a scenario.

And the only difference is Kemp’s ACL.
 
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HARKER

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You only have to go back one page where we had this discussion already, and GUMBLETRON put up the Carlton draft night video of SOS talking about Stocker, and Davo-27 commenting that it certainly appears that SOS is saying 6th best over all.

Honestly I have no problem if Stocker was list fit draft selection.

Teams make such picks in the top 10, even though clubs always say they draft best talent available.

I’d point to Adelaide drafting McAsey ahead of Hayden Young as an example of that.

My problem lies in the thought process that occurred before the trade and perceived value of the trade at the time of the trade.

I’ve discussed this in the Stocker thread on the draft page.

I believe the trade was a mistake at the time. And it’s only for the fact that Kemp did his ACL that the draft worked out for Carlton as it did.

Had Kemp not done his ACL, and had a second half of the season akin to Bontempelli in his draft year, then Kemp doesn’t slide past Sydney at 5. Adelaide get their preferred draft target of Stephens at 6. McAsey slides past Fremantle, possibly to Hawthorn.

What does Carlton do at pick 11 then? Still trade out with McAsey and Flanders on the board?

There’s no other Kemp like player available.

The trade looks completely different in such a scenario.

And the only difference is Kemp’s ACL.
I was simply pointing out that there isn't a consensus on who are the best players in drafts and that every club views things a little differently.......no matter what recruiters say on the night, as no recruiter nor List Manager is going to conclude with' "We didn't take the best talent available" :)
 

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HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I find it impossible to imagine us actually rating him 6th overall. Mainly because he was extremely top age, a man child and not dominant in an incredibly talented draft year. 6th in terms of players we were actually looking for I can imagine.

I’m a huge fan of him and as posted earlier he reminds me a lot of a poor mans Luke Hodge. He could be absolutely huge for us.
 

Monkey King

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I find it impossible to imagine us actually rating him 6th overall. Mainly because he was extremely top age, a man child and not dominant in an incredibly talented draft year.
Stocker is younger than Rozee and Jones and just 6 months older than Walsh. I think people get confused about his age because he came through a different schooling system and finished a year earlier.

My guess is that he'd have been at 6 on Carlton's wish list. The criteria for that list is unknown; needs, talent, character … who knows.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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He is s
Stocker is younger than Rozee and Jones and just 6 months older than Walsh. I think people get confused about his age because he came through a different schooling system and finished a year earlier.

My guess is that he'd have been at 6 on Carlton's wish list. The criteria for that list is unknown; needs, talent, character … who knows.
He is still extremely top aged, and extremely physically developed compared to his peers. Not that that means anything but he was far from a typical top end talent considering he didn’t have runs on the board
 

Monkey King

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He is still extremely top aged, and extremely physically developed compared to his peers. Not that that means anything but he was far from a typical top end talent considering he didn’t have runs on the board
I’ll just say it ... Rozee was not a top aged player. Stocker was not a top aged. Not even a little bit. Neither of them. You are wrong to say that. These guys were in the same age bracket of all the other top 10 picks, born in 2000.

Didn’t have runs in the board? He won the Morrish medal. Didn’t play champs due to broken jaw.

Extremely physically developed compared to his peers? Nah. He was a stocky kid with some weight on him, but lacked the physical conditioning of his peers. Bit like Rayner the year before.

There is an element of truth to every one of your points, you just seemed to have exaggerated on each one.
 

footyfan78

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Stocker is younger than Rozee and Jones and just 6 months older than Walsh. I think people get confused about his age because he came through a different schooling system and finished a year earlier.

My guess is that he'd have been at 6 on Carlton's wish list. The criteria for that list is unknown; needs, talent, character … who knows.
Yes, Without knowing the full context of the 6th meaning, I've mainly assumed it was 6th on our list of players we rated for midfield. Given our spine had been drafted previously guys like King twins or Rankine as a forward would have been rated higher by us but on our list of midfield wants as a priority of that draft pool I suspected Stocker was 6th on our in house ranking. When he was still there in late teens, they saw it as great value relative to how we rated our midfield wants.
I suspected we rated him after Smith that got drafted at pick 7 by Dogs as a midfielder. I really like his style. All he needs is to build a tank and think he will be something special for our midfield in coming years. Looks good on both sides of body and hard at it too. Liked what I saw of him against Pies but got injured soon after and do not think he got back before end of his first season.
Walsh, Blakey, Rozee, Smith and Caldwell as midfielders I suspected we rated the top five of midfielders for the draft pool and after that I assume Stocker was next. I think this means we rated him higher than Hately as a midfielder that got drafted at pick 14.
 

HavUEvaSeenTheRain

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I’ll just say it ... Rozee was not a top aged player. Stocker was not a top aged. Not even a little bit. Neither of them. You are wrong to say that. These guys were in the same age bracket of all the other top 10 picks, born in 2000.

Didn’t have runs in the board? He won the Morrish medal. Didn’t play champs due to broken jaw.

Extremely physically developed compared to his peers? Nah. He was a stocky kid with some weight on him, but lacked the physical conditioning of his peers. Bit like Rayner the year before.

There is an element of truth to every one of your points, you just seemed to have exaggerated on each one.
The birth date can make a big difference at that age imo and he is only three months younger then Rayner for instance. He was a man child who as and inside mid used that size advantage, that doesn’t mean he can’t improve in other area’s or that it won’t translate to AFL level.

Not having runs on the board was a point I made poorly. I meant in context of being rated at 6 compared to the others in that group and the potential improvement and the possible ceilings of the other top prospects. For me a prospect like Stocker would have to have an extremely dominant season to be rated above a lot of the others which he was far from imo. 6 in the entire draft just seems far too high to believe considering that draft class. There were 6 players who could easily go pick 1 in other years and Stocker is a long way off that.
 

Ambrosia

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Rubbish, he will add size, improve the contested side of his game (which is already strong given his light frame), improve his running patterns, tighten up his decision-making and end up a similar player stylistically to Tom Mitchell or Jack Macrae.

There’s still a (Sydney) stack of improvement in him.
Yeah Walsh has tons of room to grow. Don’t really see the two player comparisons you’ve mentioned though.
 

La Dispute

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Yeah Walsh has tons of room to grow. Don’t really see the two player comparisons you’ve mentioned though.
Prior to being draft he was compared to Trent Cotchin and Marc Murphy, and although that is a reasonable representation of his game style in his first year I’m projecting what kind of player he will end up given how easily he seems to gain muscle mass, how natural he is at the stoppages, and his general affinity for getting his hands dirty and winning contested possession.

I’d say he will end up more like Macrae than Mitchell given how good he is on the outside, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see him develop into an inside/outside mid in the vein of Tom Mitchell.

He will continue being a big accumulator however he develops.
 

Ambrosia

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Prior to being draft he was compared to Trent Cotchin and Marc Murphy, and although that is a reasonable representation of his game style in his first year I’m projecting what kind of player he will end up given how easily he seems to gain muscle mass, how natural he is at the stoppages, and his general affinity for getting his hands dirty and winning contested possession.

I’d say he will end up more like Macrae than Mitchell given how good he is on the outside, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see him develop into an inside/outside mid in the vein of Tom Mitchell.

He will continue being a big accumulator however he develops.
Just don’t think he ever comes close to the inside force that Mitchell is and I see Macrae as Pendlebury type.

Marc Murphy with a durable/big enough body to play inside sounds like a reasonable comp. I sought of see Walsh becoming what Scully was supposed to be. People forget how good around a stoppage he was in u18s and early AFL career but he ended up just too small to mix it in their long term.
 

La Dispute

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Just don’t think he ever comes close to the inside force that Mitchell is and I see Macrae as Pendlebury type.

Marc Murphy with a durable/big enough body to play inside sounds like a reasonable comp. I sought of see Walsh becoming what Scully was supposed to be. People forget how good around a stoppage he was in u18s and early AFL career but he ended up just too small to mix it in their long term.
Agreed. I also think Scully was basically pushed to an outside role because GWS were stacked for inside mids, and his game style suited them to a tee.

I think Walsh will spend plenty of time on the inside - he’s shown he’s capable, he just needs the body to suit. Easy to forget Macrae was purely an outside mid in his first few years too.
 

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Ambrosia

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Agreed. I also think Scully was basically pushed to an outside role because GWS were stacked for inside mids, and his game style suited them to a tee.

I think Walsh will spend plenty of time on the inside - he’s shown he’s capable, he just needs the body to suit. Easy to forget Macrae was purely an outside mid in his first few years too.
Yeah I don’t see Macrae as unreachable blend of inside outside for Walsh. I just don’t see many similarities in the way each player operates on the footy field.
 

THE_GUN

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And this goes back to my original question and comment.

Did Carlton genuinely rate Stocker as the 6th best talent in the draft, or 6th best talent on a list needs basis, or 6th best inside/balanced mid in the draft?

I can believe 6th best mid in the draft if you rate;
Walsh
Smith
Caldwell
Duursma

Either Jackson Hately or Tarryn Thomas ahead of Stocker.

I struggle the believe 6th best talent, excluding KPP’s in regards to list needs.

There’s also a scenario where they end up overrating Stocker, as they believe he’ll be available at a pick at the back end of the first round, and he moves up their draft board as a consequence, but this phenomenon is covered much better in the Lystics AFL podcast, than I could explain here.
No Room for
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THE_GUN

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Mate, this was before the Draft. Stack wasn’t rated that high.
Stack was rated top 10 on talent and upside , It was his ability to stay on track with his training and work ethic that was in question
 

briztoon

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Stack was rated top 10 on talent and upside , It was his ability to stay on track with his training and work ethic that was in question
You and I have very different recollections of the 2018 Under 18’s, and the commentary around it.

I never once read Stack was rated as a player with potential top 10 talent.

And I read a LOT of U18 media and discussion.
 

THE_GUN

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You and I have very different recollections of the 2018 Under 18’s, and the commentary around it.

I never once read Stack was rated as a player with potential top 10 talent.

And I read a LOT of U18 media and discussion.
He was always rated as a top 10 talent but was excepted that he would drift due to his off field issue's , All west Australian talent watchers and coaches mentinoed thins numerous times including Shiffter Sheehan.
 

briztoon

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He was always rated as a top 10 talent but was excepted that he would drift due to his off field issue's , All west Australian talent watchers and coaches mentinoed thins numerous times including Shiffter Sheehan.
Like I said, I never read that once.

Certainly read top 30 talent at the beginning of the season. Potential first round talent at some point.

Was never in top 10 discussion.

But it’s cool. He’s in the system, and players develop at different rates. No need to discuss Tigers in every thread.
 

THE_GUN

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Like I said, I never read that once.

Certainly read top 30 talent at the beginning of the season. Potential first round talent at some point.

Was never in top 10 discussion.

But it’s cool. He’s in the system, and players develop at different rates. No need to discuss Tigers in every thread.
Ok perhaps i better re phrase this

Yes you are correct that you would not have read that due to his draft year being troublesome BUt every talent scout and experts and junior watchers were aware of his talents and his ability so was never discussed as going in the top 10 but was always thought of as a top 10 talent. Similar thing with Dayle Garlett
He was a top 5-10 player but went undrafted due to drug issue's but Talent was top 10 similar to stack but with stack it was his family issues and his inability to deal with them in perth.

Cornes says every club would be regretting not selecting Stack in the 2018 AFL Draft.

“Due to Sydney Stack’s off-field issues, he was overlooked by every club at the draft last year,” he said.

“But now, there isn’t a club in the competition that wouldn’t kill to have him on their list.

“In fact, if last year’s AFL Draft was re-done, Stack would be a top five pick. He may even go top three.”
 

briztoon

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Ok perhaps i better re phrase this

Yes you are correct that you would not have read that due to his draft year being troublesome BUt every talent scout and experts and junior watchers were aware of his talents and his ability so was never discussed as going in the top 10 but was always thought of as a top 10 talent. Similar thing with Dayle Garlett
He was a top 5-10 player but went undrafted due to drug issue's but Talent was top 10 similar to stack but with stack it was his family issues and his inability to deal with them in perth.

Cornes says every club would be regretting not selecting Stack in the 2018 AFL Draft.

“Due to Sydney Stack’s off-field issues, he was overlooked by every club at the draft last year,” he said.

“But now, there isn’t a club in the competition that wouldn’t kill to have him on their list.

“In fact, if last year’s AFL Draft was re-done, Stack would be a top five pick. He may even go top three.”
Yeah quoting Kane Cornes doesn’t add any validity to your point of view.

I knew exactly what you meant from the get go, no need to rephrase it.

There’s not an argument you can make that will make me consider Stack as a top 10 from the 2018 draft.

With the exception of Chayce Jones, I believe the top 10 as drafted is pretty much spot on. And you can slot Xavier Duursma in to Jones’s spot in the draft.

Let’s wait 5 years and revisit this discussion.
 

THE_GUN

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Yeah quoting Kane Cornes doesn’t add any validity to your point of view.

I knew exactly what you meant from the get go, no need to rephrase it.

There’s not an argument you can make that will make me consider Stack as a top 10 from the 2018 draft.

With the exception of Chayce Jones, I believe the top 10 as drafted is pretty much spot on. And you can slot Xavier Duursma in to Jones’s spot in the draft.

Let’s wait 5 years and revisit this discussion.

There is no point even discussing this any longer , in 1 breath you say you know what i mean whilst you have mentioned a couple of time ' from what i have read' and then you make the comment above.

If you genuinely believe that Sydney Stack is not a top 10 talent from his draft then i would say you have no idea of the player you are talking about.
This kid is a star and easily a top 10 talent
 

briztoon

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There is no point even discussing this any longer , in 1 breath you say you know what i mean whilst you have mentioned a couple of time ' from what i have read' and then you make the comment above.

If you genuinely believe that Sydney Stack is not a top 10 talent from his draft then i would say you have no idea of the player you are talking about.
This kid is a star and easily a top 10 talent
We’ve barely seen half the kids from the top ten, and it’s way to early to make declarative statements.

I’m not saying Stack isn’t a good player, just that there were a lot of good players in 2018’s draft.
 

GUMBLETRON

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If you genuinely believe that Sydney Stack is not a top 10 talent from his draft then i would say you have no idea of the player you are talking about.
This kid is a star and easily a top 10 talent
The discussion is around who Carlton rated in their top 6 at the time of the draft. Keep up.
 
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