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the kelly melbourne trade is almost identical and a very good comparison
the kelly melbourne trade is almost identical and a very good comparison
You see this is where bias comes into it and it effects the way you think
If i was to tell you to compare Judd to Martin in your mind you will say Judd , But end of their career's Martin will be known as a better player
You are correct with one thing..and one thing only. Your bias has well and truly effected the way you think.
Martin is a very good player who has had ONE exceptional year. Judd is a legend of the game.
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LOL if you truly believe that then you sir are the person with Bias , Martin has dominated since being recruited
He was averaging more than 20 touches and
1st year - statts
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...&pid2=109&fid1=P&fopt1=2010&fid2=P&fopt2=2002
2nd year
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...&pid2=109&fid1=P&fopt1=2011&fid2=P&fopt2=2003
Career
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...erStatus2=I&tid2=4&type=A&pid1=3316&pid2=109&
Their best years both won brownlows
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy...&pid2=109&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=P&fopt2=2004
Dustin Martin is still in his prime and has another 5-7 years to play and will easily pass Judds games played
sometimes you need to look past your Bias Dusty along with Judd will become Legends of the game
- Jul 6, 2017
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I think the simple solution here is to agree both are phenominally good players and both will be remembered as greats of their time
Thats exactly correct and the point i was trying to make initially was that it depended on your bias as to which you believe is better until Drake mentioned that Dusty only had 1 good year which is false Dusty has been an amazing player since he was recruited and every year he has had has been at a extremely high level not just 1 year.
Judd was a champion and one of the best as is Dusty
Pretty negative and unbalanced post. I thought we agreed you could wait a while for your anti Carlton hatred to return?
Your basic thesis is SOS is to be marked down if GWS don’t win a flag. In the two immediate years after he left they finished top 4 twice- yet you give him no credit for that? Like none? But years later he has to wear some of the responsibility for them not winning? I don’t get it. They didn’t need to do much after he left to improve a solid top four list into a Flag. I’d say he deserves to wear NONE of that.
You can also assess the work he has done on the Blues rebuild. What are your thoughts on his material changes?
I’ve outlined them previously but here they are for your perusal:
There’s ‘strategy’ and ‘execution’ to assess. The SOS strategy has been very clear: trade out players for picks and young talent. No sensible person can question that was the right thing to do- from a strategy standpoint. The list was in terrible condition when he arrived and he didn’t even have much to trade out.
In execution - The concept of ‘materiality’ needs to be understood here.
The material list mgt execution decisions are (a) early draft picks (rounds 1 and 2) and (b) trades WHERE MATERIAL LOSS has been suffered.
A brief review then of each material decision in the SOS Carlton era:
(1) 2015: Virtually everyone would have picked Weitering. He was a 20 year old key defender in 2018. Let’s see how he goes from here. McKay looks good doesn’t he? Charlie Curnow? Cuningham (borderline 1st/2nd round pick) is questionable. Has had 3 injury filled years. Needs to not become Freeman.
(2) 2016: SPS is having his first preseason (due to injuries). Has shown flashes. Needed to get fit. Is now. Fisher (second rounder) is a steal. Terrific selection.
(3) 2017: Dow and LOB showed a lot Year one. Both have added a lot of size in the off season. All indicators are both are good selections.
(4) 2018: Walsh and Stocker? Let’s see hey. Certainly Walsh looks sensational in preseason training. Stocker looks like he needs a lot of work on his fitness. He’s doing that work.
Material Trades:
- Lachie Henderson was traded for what effectively became McKay.
- Tom Bell was traded for pick 21, which was added to another second rounder and became Chuckie C
- Yarran became Cuningham
- Troy Menzel is now Phillips and Plowman
- Tuohy and a second rounder became Marchbank Pickett Polson and Williamson. Marchbank and Williamson are good prospects. Pickett unfortunate. Polson questionable but maybe.
- Gibbs and 2 third rounders have become O’Brien, Kennedy, Tom De Koning and a second rounder. TDK a good ruck prospect. Kennedy was essentially pick 28 as part of that and is now fit after missing all his first preseason and playing with an ongoing ankle issue in 2018.
- that last second rounder from the Gibbs set of moves (also involved Dogs) was added to another and led to the McGovern trade
- this year a third rounder and next years second were traded for setterfield
- we swapped 2019 firsts with adelaide to yield Stocker. Time will tell I guess.
They are ALL the deals and picks involving material selections and players since SOS arrived.
You can (and have) form a view on what he’s done with his work here in the past 4 years. You don’t need to wait 5 years. He’s done a very good job at GwS. His results will be even better at Carlton. And you’ll love it Gun.
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This is the Liam Stocker thread. Why have you made it the Judd v Martin thread. I have my views which are different to yours but I'm not going to get involved in a BS tit-for-tat when we are here to talk about Liam.
Stay on topic because this is boring.
Sounds like you got offended, you did bring it up.I wouldn't even enter into that dumb discussion.
Jeremias
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- Sep 26, 2004
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Sure, but if you take a step back and have a look at things objectively I reckon it's pretty obvious.
The club outlined a plan at the start of the Bolton/Silvagni era and to their credit have not deviated from it despite external pressure to do so. This is why despite the poor ladder positions in 2016, 2017 and 2018 you will find most Carlton fans are satisfied and 100% behind what the club is doing.
During each year of the current rebuild (except for the period most recently passed) we have made list management decisions which we acknowledge will make us weaker in the short term.
2015 we lost a significant amount of experience and loaded up mainly on early draft picks with a few fringe role players.
2016 we lost more experience and brought in a raft of young talent both from other clubs and via the draft.
2017 we lost one of our better players and offset that loss by mainly bringing in a heap of young kids.
2018 was the first year we haven't jettisoned experienced best 22 talent for draft assets, and whilst we did lose one experienced best 22 player, we again brought in a heap of kids - and via live trading more than we had initially anticipated.
How exactly is this not being patient? There have been no messiahs like there have been so many times before. We're committed to the plan and playing the long game. We've been very patient.
And please don't bring up the Stocker trade in an attempt to try use it as some sort of proof that we're being impatient, because that's not what it demonstrates at all.
We saw an opportunity to bring another highly rated kid into the club a year early and we jumped at that opportunity. Risky? Sure. Impatient? Absolutely not.
The Old Dark Navy's
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- #861
Another side benefit of this trade is we can absolutely not be accused of tanking.
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Hopefully you spelling it out to him (which has been done ad nauseam previously) will finally see him see things for what they truly are....rather than this anti-Carlton bias. Fingers crossed.
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Carltons tanking for the 2020 draft
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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- #864
Carltons tanking for the 2020 draft
Not sure our 2019 results will count towards that. Even a PP is out of the question.
You quoted my post !
I made the point that its a matter of opinion and that opinion would be strongly influenced by bias and i gave you an example which i used judd/martin
Then you went on and said dusty had 1 good year (again opinion -yours) so i just explained and showed you why you are wrong.
I really dont get the hate for what Carlton did, and I have had my fair share of Carlton run ins on here.
Stocker came on this year after his injury with a bang. Beat out Smith and Walsh for the best TAC kid to boot.
He is a good talent for sure. They bring in two of the best TAC cup mids in 2018, and then still have a first rounder next year from the Crows.
I have Carlton with six wins next year, finishing from 14th to 16th and the Crows coming around 5th. I have their first dropping back from around pick 3 to pick 14. In Carltons mind, Stocker was worth pick 6. So pick 6 and 14 for pick 3 isnt a bad deal. I dont see next years draft as good as last years, so thats another positive for SOS.
Why this deserves condemnation I dont know.
For me Carlton have enough talent to move up the ladder this year, but I dont know if Bolton is the man for the job.
Stocker came on this year after his injury with a bang. Beat out Smith and Walsh for the best TAC kid to boot.
He is a good talent for sure. They bring in two of the best TAC cup mids in 2018, and then still have a first rounder next year from the Crows.
I have Carlton with six wins next year, finishing from 14th to 16th and the Crows coming around 5th. I have their first dropping back from around pick 3 to pick 14. In Carltons mind, Stocker was worth pick 6. So pick 6 and 14 for pick 3 isnt a bad deal. I dont see next years draft as good as last years, so thats another positive for SOS.
Why this deserves condemnation I dont know.
For me Carlton have enough talent to move up the ladder this year, but I dont know if Bolton is the man for the job.
Not to mention the fact that he answers everyones questions they put to him on the forum. The guy is a champ, and there are plenty of recuiters who mess up their draft selections, and they have access to footage of every game the kids play, and interviews with their coaches and family, as well as GPS numbers etc.
Why you would put Knightmare down for all the effort he goes to on this forum is beyond me.
I agree, yet have been roundly lambasted for it. I've always said that I admire the trade and think it was a good move, however I think Silvagni has probably overestimated his list (and coach) as I still see Carlton finishing bottom two and handing over pick #1 or #2 which is probably overpaying. In principle, it's a good deal for the Blues but it will require Carlton's youth to show a lot more than they have until now to pay off.
- Jul 14, 2005
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- #870
Great post, basically how I feel about the trade.
Seems on the whole we’re splitting our assets, but given the plethora of top draft picks we’ve already brought in we’re in a position to do so. Factoring in our midfield is a big area of weakness, and not every player we bring in will make it, it’s a serious boost to both our midfield talent and depth long-term.
If Adelaide get a Top 5 Pick, that’s another good addition to their lineup, and they added 2 first round draft picks in areas of need anyway so Pick 19 would have been a little bit inconsequential.
I'm not liking your post because it suits my possible bias, but because it expresses the trade with a lot more thought than most opposition posters care to think through. The trade was a good one in principle, even with the 'risk' attached. The only real consideration will be; Will Stocker be a good player? That's it.
If Stocker doesn't work out to be the player the CFC projected he'll be, then it will be deemed to be a poor trade for Carlton. Until then........
Let’s get this back on track. Really don’t give a stuff about Richmond players whilst in the Liam Stocker thread.
Track watchers saying his foot skills are of a very high standard. Is putting the extra yards in to build up his endurance; which is seen as a weakness.
I see him as a project player who will work hard, develop in the VFL and force his way in to the AFL.
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Track watchers saying his foot skills are of a very high standard. Is putting the extra yards in to build up his endurance; which is seen as a weakness.
I see him as a project player who will work hard, develop in the VFL and force his way in to the AFL.
On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
I don’t think so. Carlton’s future first is the Crows’ now. It’s done. The most positive outcome for Carlton from here would be a strong draft that maximises the currency of whatever picks they end up with.
I agree in terms of raw strategy, it’s hard to understand the condemnation. If Carlton see themselves with say pick 4-6 in a weaker draft next year, and the chance to swap it for a top 6 player from a stronger draft here and now, it’s a total no-brainer to make this deal.
The only issue is whether or not Carlton read the situation accurately, which can’t as yet be ascertained.
Get ready to put that on repeat, or copy/paste, copy/paste.
It's really not that hard to understand, when one gives themselves the chance to think it through.
You dont cough up a 1st rounder for a project player so cant see how you can say that, Sos rated him #6 hardly project type
track wathers as with all clubs only see positives in their new draftee's as with Richmond supporters seeing sydney stack as being a gun of the future before he has been allocated a spot.
Stocker will be a good addition to carltons youth but there will be too much focus on the kid due to this trade, If he was just a normal pick #19 selection he wouldnt have this thread on this board
