Politics Libertarians, what are they?

[nicky]

I get conflicting information on Libertarians; I think that it means they are against Big government and for free will - which doesn't sound all that bad however I see inherent problems in this philosophy regarding things like climate change, like if a corporation is able to express it's free will at the expense of the environment and there is no regulatory body to intervene then this kind of fks up the planet for all of us.

I've never had a solid grasp on what they stand for, an example is the govt bail outs during the GFC, which would not have been possible without a government taxing system. Ie. the bail outs were paid from the Big Government taxing system, money collected from US citizens. These bankers claim to have libertarian values but will throw those values out the window and rely on big government to bail them out.

Another example is Peter Thiel considers himself a Libertarian and if my understanding is correct and one of the fundamental values is free will / free market and free speech then why does he use his financial power to bankrupt a magazine and journalists he disagrees with? (using "Big government" institutions to do this might i add) Does using your power to censor free speech undermine a fundamental principle of Libertarianism?

He has a vision of creating an island free of government but where he is the leader of this new society. Is this not a dictatorship? How does this relate to Libertarianism?

Not that I've dealt with lots of Libertarians but it seems that when speaking with one more often than not they soon reveal themselves to be right wing conservatives rather than Libertarians.

The nitpicking and in fighting on the left because they're too busy fighting over whether or not white people should wear dreadlocks weakens their cause and they really need to get their s**t together and respectful battle out the small stuff and stay focussed on the real wars out there. But atleast they share common values, they need to remain focussed on the big picture. (The problems with social justice warriors requires it's own thread, was just saying that through all the chaos the left seem to share a common set of values on wanting a fairer world).

Whereas (imo) Libertarians are defined by incoherent and mixed messages. I don't know what they really want or stand for.

Discuss (respectfully )

 

[cannot]

however I see inherent problems in this philosophy regarding things like climate change, like if a corporation is able to express it's free will at the expense of the environment)

you have a point

yet the people that value liberty are not the highest rankings problems

consumer capitalism and greed

its a bit of a cop out to blame the libertarians for problems like this

 

[nicky]

you have a point

yet the people that value liberty are not the highest rankings problems

consumer capitalism and greed

its a bit of a cop out to blame the libertarians for problems like this

This thread is about getting clarification on what libertarians stand for - because at the moment I'm getting conflicting messages as I stated in a couple of examples in the OP.

By no means is this a thread saying Libertarians are the worst people on the planet or even trying to identify who needs to take responsibility for the lions share of s**t things in the world. You've misunderstood my post if that is what you've read.

I just want to see if anyone can sum up a Libertarian's philosophy and whether is makes sense.

 

[cannot]

This thread is about getting clarification on what libertarians stand for - because at the moment I'm getting conflicting messages as I stated in a couple of examples in the OP.

By no means is this a thread saying Libertarians are the worst people on the planet or even trying to identify who needs to take responsibility for the lions share of s**t things in the world. You've misunderstood my post if that is what you've read.

I just want to see if anyone can sum up a Libertarian's philosophy and whether is makes sense.

i was more trying to also seek clarification about the definition/s

much of the thoughts of liberty were done before the world was run by corporations and we had the ability to do things like BP deepwater oil disaster or japanese nuclear mistakes

like how the US Constitution is a bit fuzzy when applied to the modern year.

i had assumed it was more personal liberty for the person him or her self. such as picking your own god to follow or gun ownership

Not in a business economic sense but i dunno.

 

[Admiral Byng]

There are libertarians and there are Libertarians. Small l and big L.

 

[nicky]

i was more trying to also seek clarification about the definition/s

much of the thoughts of liberty were done before the world was run by corporations and we had the ability to do things like BP deepwater oil disaster

like how the US Constitution is a bit fuzzy when applied to the modern year.

i had assumed it was more personal liberty for the person him or her self. such as picking your own god to follow or gun ownership

Not in a business economic sense

Ok good point.

I am talking about people in today's world that call themselves Libertarians. What are their values, what do they stand for, where are their political parties? Seems there are enough Billionaire Libertarians out there to bankroll a party. Are they just republicans that say they don't want Big government but really they love Big government - the taxes to spend on military, tax funded technology progress (which is then privatised). I don't know what Libertarians are and Republicans claim to want less government then set up govt spying operations so i'm confused about the fundamental principles and values that guide them. There is a misalignment with what they say their values are and their actions. Is all.

 

[nicky]

There are libertarians and there are Libertarians. Small l and big L.

what is the difference between them?

 

[Admiral Byng]

what is the difference between them?

Small l libertarians are generic. They believe in maximising individual liberty (individualism) and minimising or abolishing governments. Some of them are against voting because that means participating in governments. They all seem to subscribe to a non-aggression or "do no harm" type philosophy too.

Big L Libertarians are members of political parties founded on libertarian ideas but think that the way to achieve those ideas is to participate in the political process/government and dismantle it from within.

 

[cannot]

what is the difference between them?

big L, bad ones

 

[nicky]

Small l libertarians are generic. They believe in maximising individual liberty (individualism) and minimising or abolishing governments. Some of them are against voting because that means participating in governments. They all seem to subscribe to a non-aggression or "do no harm" type philosophy too.

Big L Libertarians are members of political parties founded on libertarian ideas but think that the way to achieve those ideas is to participate in the political process/government and dismantle it from within.

Do you have good examples of public figure Libertarians and libertarians? As in, one that could hold water, not like Peter Thiel, do you agree that he's a bad example of a Libertarian?

 

[Malifice]

I just want to see if anyone can sum up a Libertarian's philosophy and whether is makes sense.

Theyre an outdated and deluded branch of liberalism that has been replaced as the dominant liberal paradgim (by social liberalism) over a century ago.

In a nutshell, liberals (and libertarians) believe in two forms of liberty. 'Postive' liberty (or 'freedom to') and 'Negative' liberty (or 'freedom from'). Negative liberty is the postion that if everyone is left alone by government (minimal taxes, minimal laws etc) then (and only then) are we 'free'. This is the postion of libertartians to the exclusion of other forms of liberty. Dont tread on me and all that.

Postive liberty is the view that in a society with minimal laws, many people would not in fact be free at all (and an entirely different form of tyranny would form).

Liberals (and libertarians) both conceed that we need a government to protect us from harm from others. This is what seperates libertarians from anarchists (who claim to want no government at all). Libertarians broadly support things like criminal codes and defence forces (at a minimum) and courts to resolve civil disputes.

A 'libertarian' though wants 'small government'. Precisely how small is a matter of debate (see also in this forum, many of our so called 'libertarians' are perfectly fine with all kinds of draconian laws). Its a fuzzy standard at best.

A liberal on the other hand doesnt concern themselves with the size of government; they concern themselves with the powers that government wields, and the manner in which they wield them. To a liberal, government can be as large as it needs to be in order to fulfil its role of 'Protecting people from unreasonable harm from others'. Liberals sets as their benchmark not an arbitrary fuzzy limit of size, but a limit on the lawmaking power itself. For a law to pass muster it must pass the test of: 'Is this proposed law reasonably necessary for the protection of harm?' and 'Is this law proportional to that harm?'

A libertarian would be opposed to laws prohibiting recreational drugs (because freedom), or laws mandating the construction of wheelchair ramps to enable disabled people access to important buildings (also because freedom).

A liberal would support both measures if it can be demonstrated that the laws were necessary to protect people from harm (or remove a barrier that causes harm), were proportional, and reasonable.

Basically the only libertarians left nowadays are a handful of right wing nutters like the Tea party movement. They make strange bedfellows with the hard right (Nazis and the religious right) who are already in a somewhat uncomfortable alliance to begin with.

Of all the right wing groups, I have time for the libertarians. I just wish they would actually read Adam Smith, JS Mill, Dworkins and so forth and understand their central arguments if they intend on (mis)quoting them so much.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Do you have good examples of public figure Libertarians and libertarians? As in, one that could hold water, not like Peter Thiel, do you agree that he's a bad example of a Libertarian?

Not really, I kinda reject it personally as a workable idea. So I am not really up to date with the latest writings or personalities in the field.

I guess Ron Paul might be an example of the latter, he ran for POTUS once as a Libertarian Party candidate, but has since joined the GOP.

 

[SBYM]

Please watch this. Goddamn classic.



The whole thing is hilarious, but from 6.00 if you're pressed.

Warning; Seder is fiercely anti-libertarian. The deadshits that keep calling him make it easy but...

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I saw a quote the other week; they're a bunch of people who are born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple.

 

[SBYM]

The vid above is funny. This one is more instructive imo...



Libertarian calls in, gets all high and mighty, and asks 'When has regulation ever worked?' (emphasis mine)

Sam completely destroys his whole worldview within six words. This happens early, within the first minute, so you don't need to watch the whole thing.

The poor soul's brain explodes after one simple question.

lol

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Im more familiar with American libertarianism where the ideal was everyone is a sovereign landowner, with animals, a gun and free to profit from their labour. As Mal said, the exact role of government in this scenario depends from libertarian to libertarian (provision of a police force, fire station, post office, none of these) but it does that evoke that frontier mindset of freedom and equality.

Then reality hits and a capitalism as a power centralising force comes to the fore and you see that one due has bought up half the farms in 30 years time and he's squeezing everyone. And there are no libertarians here to step in with regulations of ownership or whatever.

Libertarians would love to abolish the minimum wage, not because they want everybody earning $3 an hour, but they genuinely believe that removing this govt regulation would create a fairer labour market where the harder/better you work, the more you earn.

Those of us familiar with reality know this is utter s**t.

 

[Long Live HFC]

they're the right's version of socialists, just whiter and nastier.

 

[Snake_Baker]

People resorting to defining libertarians as some hard fixed grouping, are missing the point completely.

Libertarianism to me is the freedom from being governed and extending that same philosophy to others with your actions.

If you want to seriously explore the matter, go here and start reading:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/special/index

 

[nicky]

Im more familiar with American libertarianism where the ideal was everyone is a sovereign landowner, with animals, a gun and free to profit from their labour. As Mal said, the exact role of government in this scenario depends from libertarian to libertarian (provision of a police force, fire station, post office, none of these) but it does that evoke that frontier mindset of freedom and equality.

Then reality hits and a capitalism as a power centralising force comes to the fore and you see that one due has bought up half the farms in 30 years time and he's squeezing everyone. And there are no libertarians here to step in with regulations of ownership or whatever.

Libertarians would love to abolish the minimum wage, not because they want everybody earning $3 an hour, but they genuinely believe that removing this govt regulation would create a fairer labour market where the harder/better you work, the more you earn.

Those of us familiar with reality know this is utter s**t.

So going by your last two posts you think that Libertarians are privileged silverspoon dicks.

Capitalisim relies on the government to do their bidding so it can sustain itself, by: collecting taxes from the middle classes to pay for wars in order to line the pockets of Defence contractors; the military and police protect corporate interests (dakota pipeline - how much public money was spent protecting private interests against public ones) public transport so us cogs can get to and from work.

If there was a revolution tomorrow over the fact that Big corps avoid paying taxes then you can bet the tax funded military and police would protect those corporate interests, even though, we are the ones that pay their wages - which would be the point of the revolution. I think that might be ironic.

Anyway i digress other than wanting to be free, which is great, i want to be free too, do Libertarians have a vision how their society could work or is it just disjointed ill thought out dream?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Libertarians are people who believe in freedom on the individual and freedom of the enterprise .They believe that the government should get out peoples way and let them live and take responsibility for their own life .

The libertarian party in this country wants a flat tax rate of 20% for everyone earning over $40,000 a year . Great idea .

 

[nicky]

Libertarians are people who believe in freedom on the individual and freedom of the enterprise .They believe that the government should get out peoples way and let them live and take responsibility for their own life .

The libertarian party in this country wants a flat tax rate of 20% for everyone earning over $40,000 a year . Great idea .

Where would do they propose to prioritise this tax money? What are their priorities?

 

[quotemokc]

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

People resorting to defining libertarians as some hard fixed grouping, are missing the point completely.

Libertarianism to me is the freedom from being governed and extending that same philosophy to others with your actions.

If you want to seriously explore the matter, go here and start reading:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/special/index

Snake IMO labels hide more than they reveal with these discussions but thoe anarchist readings are much more worthwhile than your standard libertarian.

 

[nicky]

People resorting to defining libertarians as some hard fixed grouping, are missing the point completely.

Libertarianism to me is the freedom from being governed and extending that same philosophy to others with your actions.

If you want to seriously explore the matter, go here and start reading:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/special/index

What about road rules? Would we be able to drink drive and speed? Would there be a need for some type of government to enforce minimal laws?

Would drugs be legalised?

I've seen examples where social anarchy has worked.

 

[quotemokc]

What about road rules? Would we be able to drink drive and speed? Would there be a need for some type of government to enforce minimal laws?

Would drugs be legalised?

I've seen examples where social anarchy has worked.

I think he meant over governed.