Politics Libertarians, what are they?

[ferball]

People will invest in communities that best represent their interests.

The notion of people being satisfied with an all encompassing, one size fits all society is the root cause of the problem.

It doesn't exist. Such concepts undermine the notion of liberty completely.

Did you ever read "The Diamond Age". Its a sci fi book by Neal Stephenson.

 

[HairyO]

Except when it offends their moral creed; for example:

Abortion
Religion in schools
Homosexuality
Same sex marriage

At that point, libertarians can not have a government that is either big enough wielding enough power to stop those perverts from living their life without interference of said government.

Libertarians are perhaps the rankest of all hypocrits. They hide behind personal responsibility, yet demand that others live their life by their creed.

Which libertarians are against the above?

Or do you just lump everyone who thinks even slightly differently to you in one group?

I personally couldnt care less what consenting adults do as long as it doesnt interfere with others. Im not too fussed what kids do, along similar lines, though clearly I think they need some protections because their brains are not fully developed.

Abortion I really dont know about. I have no issue with women having the right to decide, but again I do think some limits apply.

Religion in schools should be voluntary. But given what is at the core of most religions I have no issue with it being taught.

I also think Governments waste enormous amounts of money on things which are simply not needed and this is a disgraceful waste of our money. Then again, Governments do what we absolutely need them to do. I just like to think we should get value for money.

How many people would say we get value for our money out of our governments?

I did like the wonderfully racist comment on a previous page by someone talking about libertarians being white. The biggest libertarians I know are Indian. They hate governments and hate taxes and want only to be able to take care of themselves with no input.

But then, I havent been to India so I dont know if its just the ones I know or if that is a common feeling in that country.

I also like Bill Maher. As much as he grandstands, at least he is consistent. He is very much what a liberal was 30 or 40 years ago. Compared to what liberals seem to have morphed in to today.

 

[HairyO]

They were quiet honest about how corrupt they were.

NSW though, ah the good old Rum Corps. They never left Australia, they went into hibernation; and became the Liberal, Labor and National parties upon awakening.

A friend of mine jokes about how the Rum Corps never went away. They just melded in to the political and police powerbase.

And Joh certainly was open about it. Queensland was open for business. All you had to do was bribe the state and bribe the pollies and you could get whatever you wanted. Even 10 years after he was gone Labor was still finding his money and putting it to good use.

 

[Snake_Baker]

 

[Seeds]

What do Libertarians think is the end goal of life? What do they actually want to achieve? And why dont they think government can help them achieve that?

 

[Taylor]

What do Libertarians think is the end goal of life? What do they actually want to achieve? And why dont they think government can help them achieve that?

The general consensus is that the government is for protecting life and liberty but whenever it gets involved in managing the day to day life of it's people it tend to use a big club that suits most circumstances but not all - that individual communities will be better at deciding what is best for them.

That the larger the reach of the government gets the less able it is to pinch it's fingers to suit the individual.

 

[Seeds]

The general consensus is that the government is for protecting life and liberty but whenever it gets involved in managing the day to day life of it's people it tend to use a big club that suits most circumstances but not all - that individual communities will be better at deciding what is best for them.

That the larger the reach of the government gets the less able it is to pinch it's fingers to suit the individual.

So what is the cut off point of useful government intervention? Is it just property laws, police and military or does it go beyond that?

 

[Gough]

Libertarians are people who think that they know better than everyone else. Usually they're wrong which is the reason most people laugh at them.

 

[Seeds]

Libertarians are people who think that they know better than everyone else. Usually they're wrong which is the reason most people laugh at them.

If Libertarians believed they knew better than everyone else then they would believe in a strong government with themselves in charge. Just like the Socialists who believe they know better than a voting public.

Ps if someone thinks an ideology is wrong then they think they know better. Might want to do some self reflection champ. There is nothing wrong with believing you know better by the way. But you need to realise that is what you are doing by declaring something wrong.

 

[Taylor]

So what is the cut off point of useful government intervention? Is it just property laws, police and military or does it go beyond that?

I'm not sure where the cut off is, that you don't have the ability to draw the line as it suits you is the issue.

Libertarians are people who think that they know better than everyone else. Usually they're wrong which is the reason most people laugh at them.

They actually think you should decide for yourself how you live your life. What monsters... Including marriage laws. Why should the government have any say in that at all?

 

[Seeds]

I'm not sure where the cut off is, that you don't have the ability to draw the line as it suits you is the issue.

They actually think you should decide for yourself how you live your life. What monsters...

If they dont have a cut off line based on actual reasoning then its an incomplete ideology.

Also you mention people should do what is best for them. How do Libertarians define the notion of what best is? I have my own definition and I also believe that each person should aim to pursue it and government should only be a vehicle to help people pursue it. But what do Libertarians believe the definition of best means?

 

[Taylor]

If they dont have a cut off line based on actual reasoning then its an incomplete ideology.

Also you mention people should do what is best for them. How do Libertarians define the notion of what best is? I have my own definition and I also believe that each person should aim to pursue it and government should only be a vehicle to help people pursue it. But what do Libertarians believe the definition of best means?

You're trying to put the one size fits all solution on something that is, at it's very essence, about unique individualism. What is best for me is not going to be best for you and each should be free, as in without hurdles put in place, to pursue that individual goal.

If how you want to live your life doesn't hurt anyone else or require anything of anyone else, as in force them to provide for you, then why shouldn't you be free to live like that?

An example that is very small would be someone who really enjoys living in their car, they don't want a fixed address. Day to day that would work fine, that person can make arrangements with people whereby they exchange parking for a service or goods - but then the government will step in. Where do they mail your license that you are required to have for driving that car when it's time to renew? Are you even allowed to have no address when you're filling out forms? Maybe you are. Some people think a license at all is too much regulation, but I think competency tests aren't so bad.

I have a medicare card, what is the purpose of this card? I think it's true purpose is to put a hurdle in place for providers who would seek to defraud the government by charging fake procedures for people who never walked in. It's a regulation to protect the government from being scammed while it provides it's free service to the people, which costs even more money. That's only possible to scam the government like that because they aren't involved in the transaction other than to pay for it at the end. If every person instead was given the money to pay for their services and transacted face to face with the businesses it might actually be cheaper for us all.

Do you really know what your medical services cost before you walk in? Not always. There isn't much direct competition. Where can I see the cost comparison between having a boob job at Joondalup or in Midland?

 

[Snake_Baker]

What do Libertarians think is the end goal of life?

Life has an "end goal"?

What do they actually want to achieve?

There is no notion of a unified ideal of libertrarian achievement. You appear to be ignorant of the most basic concepts of the philosophy.

And why dont they think government can help them achieve that?

An enforced, condensed ruling representation is fundamentally in opposition to libertarianism.

You need to do some introductory level reading on the concept.

 

[HairyO]

Libertarians are people who think that they know better than everyone else. Usually they're wrong which is the reason most people laugh at them.

You just described lefties. Particular the noisy ones on social media.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You just described lefties. Particular the noisy ones on social media.

Folks like Gough are the reason I am a libertarian.

I don't want anything to do with them, and I certainly don't want them exerting any influence over my life................but they insist they have the right to do that anyway.

They are incapable of minding their own business and respecting other peoples rights to freely choose their own path in life.

They are statists.

 

[Seeds]

Life has an "end goal"?



There is no notion of a unified ideal of libertrarian achievement. You appear to be ignorant of the most basic concepts of the philosophy.



An enforced, condensed ruling representation is fundamentally in opposition to libertarianism.

You need to do some introductory level reading on the concept.

If there is nothing they want to achieve and only things they dont like then they are just nonsensical sooks who havent thought things through properly. You cant dislike something if you dont like something in comparison. You cant say socialism is wrong if there is no alternative that is relatively right. As wrong doesnt exist without a right.

The philosophers you are reading are failures if you come to the conclusion there is no end goal to aim for as its completely illogical in a world where you disagree with at least one thing.

 

[Snake_Baker]

If there is nothing they want to achieve and only things they dont like then they are just nonsensical sooks who havent thought things through properly. You cant dislike something if you dont like something in comparison. You cant say socialism is wrong if there is no alternative that is relatively right. As wrong doesnt exist without a right.

The philosophers you are reading are failures if you come to the conclusion there is no end goal to aim for as its completely illogical in a world where you disagree with at least one thing.

Like I stated. You don't even possess an elementary understanding of the concept.

Go and find a "Libertarianism for Dummies" level book.

 

[ShanDog]

Libertarians are people who think that they know better than everyone else. Usually they're wrong which is the reason most people laugh at them.

That describes almost every single ideology and/or political standpoint.

 

[Taylor]

The end goal of libertarianism is that each individual had full agency over themselves, each community has full agency over itself.

 

[Goosecat]

Apparently Whitlam and Trump are cut from the same cloth!!
The darling Clintons of the left on the other hand... well

"Another aspect of libertarianism is that it is the enemy of centralisation. When anything is centralised (think banking, money, media, government etc) it concentrates power away from the many into the hands of the few.
To be a libertarian is to champion the rights of the individual. In a system of centralised information and power, the rights of the individual are eroded.
That’s why Trump’s battle against the deep state is so fascinating. The deep state is one of the most concentrated forms of covert power in history. Its chief ally is the mainstream media, which explains why the animus against Trump is so extreme.
The deep state refers to the layers of hidden government power that really drives the political and economic agenda. I’m talking about the FBI and the CIA, as well as various other intelligence agencies. They drive the agenda by leaking news to their media allies, namely The New York Times and the Washington Post.
But there are many layers of media involved. For example, the ‘Steele dossier’, a fake document paid for by Hillary Clinton, was first peddled through the media (Yahoo news and Buzzfeed) in order to legitimise it. It was then branded as fact to pin Russian collusion on team Trump.
And then there are the jobs in the media that await after a career in the intelligence agencies. For example, disgraced former National Intelligence Director James Clapper joined CNN in 2017. At the time, CNN host Chris Cuomo welcomed Clapper by saying he was ‘part of the family’.
Indeed.
Anyway, the point is that the mainstream media is not interested in reporting the truth. Its aim is to mislead you and prolong the status quo, of which it is an integral part.
The next step in this campaign to control the narrative is to have Robert Mueller testify before Congress on Wednesday, US time. Muller investigated team Trump and potential Russian collusion for two years, and could only claim a few victims on unrelated crimes.
At the same time, he failed to investigate the dodgy claims made in the Steele dossier, or the spying (FISA) abuses levelled against Trump team associates Carter Page and George Papadopoulos.
Mueller is pure swamp, so it’s no surprise that the Democrat pairing of Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler have asked him to testify.
They hope to squeeze out a claim that the president ‘did something’ but that Mueller couldn’t charge him, and had to leave it to Attorney General Barr, Trump’s ‘hand-picked’ lawyer. (All AG’s are hand-picked by the president).
The media will then duly report this latest outrage.
The reality, however, is that Barr has all the declassified information relating to the investigation into Trump. When it comes time to release that, let’s see what the mainstream media report on.
In addition, Inspector General Michael Horowitz has been investigating surveillance abuses by the Department of Justice and the FBI, and that report is due out in the next few months. It’s likely to reveal criminal behaviour by the Obama era intelligence agencies, and could well implicate Obama himself.
Finally, the recent arrest of paedophile Jeffery Epstein is a fascinating part of the story. Epstein looks to have been running a long standing blackmail operation. This is a classic deep state play. It’s believed Epstein has dirt on many, many of the elites who run the world.
Who was he working for?
Alexander Acosta, who resigned under pressure from the Trump Administration last week, was instrumental in getting Epstein off lightly in a paedophile charge filed in 2008. Acosta suggested his leniency at the time related to Epstein being tied ‘to intelligence’.
My guess is that refers to the CIA. Although there are some claims he was working for Israel’s Mossad.
Instead of investigating the real story, the mainstream media has made much of the fact that Trump has ties to Epstein. Epstein has evaded the law for decades. If he had dirt on Trump, he certainly wouldn’t have been arrested a few weeks ago.
But now, he’s in a maximum security prison, as much for his own safety as the wider public’s. As I said, he has dirt on a lot of powerful people. With the blackmail game now up, his value just plummeted.
It’s just another front in the war on the deep state and the decentralisation of elite power structures. I’ll be following it intently."

​ Regards, Greg Canavan,

 

[The Passenger]

Apparently Whitlam and Trump are cut from the same cloth!!
The darling Clintons of the left on the other hand... well

"Another aspect of libertarianism is that it is the enemy of centralisation. When anything is centralised (think banking, money, media, government etc) it concentrates power away from the many into the hands of the few.
To be a libertarian is to champion the rights of the individual. In a system of centralised information and power, the rights of the individual are eroded.
That’s why Trump’s battle against the deep state is so fascinating. The deep state is one of the most concentrated forms of covert power in history. Its chief ally is the mainstream media, which explains why the animus against Trump is so extreme.
The deep state refers to the layers of hidden government power that really drives the political and economic agenda. I’m talking about the FBI and the CIA, as well as various other intelligence agencies. They drive the agenda by leaking news to their media allies, namely The New York Times and the Washington Post.
But there are many layers of media involved. For example, the ‘Steele dossier’, a fake document paid for by Hillary Clinton, was first peddled through the media (Yahoo news and Buzzfeed) in order to legitimise it. It was then branded as fact to pin Russian collusion on team Trump.
And then there are the jobs in the media that await after a career in the intelligence agencies. For example, disgraced former National Intelligence Director James Clapper joined CNN in 2017. At the time, CNN host Chris Cuomo welcomed Clapper by saying he was ‘part of the family’.
Indeed.
Anyway, the point is that the mainstream media is not interested in reporting the truth. Its aim is to mislead you and prolong the status quo, of which it is an integral part.
The next step in this campaign to control the narrative is to have Robert Mueller testify before Congress on Wednesday, US time. Muller investigated team Trump and potential Russian collusion for two years, and could only claim a few victims on unrelated crimes.
At the same time, he failed to investigate the dodgy claims made in the Steele dossier, or the spying (FISA) abuses levelled against Trump team associates Carter Page and George Papadopoulos.
Mueller is pure swamp, so it’s no surprise that the Democrat pairing of Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler have asked him to testify.
They hope to squeeze out a claim that the president ‘did something’ but that Mueller couldn’t charge him, and had to leave it to Attorney General Barr, Trump’s ‘hand-picked’ lawyer. (All AG’s are hand-picked by the president).
The media will then duly report this latest outrage.
The reality, however, is that Barr has all the declassified information relating to the investigation into Trump. When it comes time to release that, let’s see what the mainstream media report on.
In addition, Inspector General Michael Horowitz has been investigating surveillance abuses by the Department of Justice and the FBI, and that report is due out in the next few months. It’s likely to reveal criminal behaviour by the Obama era intelligence agencies, and could well implicate Obama himself.
Finally, the recent arrest of paedophile Jeffery Epstein is a fascinating part of the story. Epstein looks to have been running a long standing blackmail operation. This is a classic deep state play. It’s believed Epstein has dirt on many, many of the elites who run the world.
Who was he working for?
Alexander Acosta, who resigned under pressure from the Trump Administration last week, was instrumental in getting Epstein off lightly in a paedophile charge filed in 2008. Acosta suggested his leniency at the time related to Epstein being tied ‘to intelligence’.
My guess is that refers to the CIA. Although there are some claims he was working for Israel’s Mossad.
Instead of investigating the real story, the mainstream media has made much of the fact that Trump has ties to Epstein. Epstein has evaded the law for decades. If he had dirt on Trump, he certainly wouldn’t have been arrested a few weeks ago.
But now, he’s in a maximum security prison, as much for his own safety as the wider public’s. As I said, he has dirt on a lot of powerful people. With the blackmail game now up, his value just plummeted.
It’s just another front in the war on the deep state and the decentralisation of elite power structures. I’ll be following it intently."

​ Regards, Greg Canavan,

LOL what an unhinged rant that was.

There is certainly many layers of deep state which includes mainstream media, but if you think Drumpf is the man to lead the charge against it... Well I don't know what to tell you. The system, the deep state, the elite... whatever you want to call it. Bone spures and his cronies are knee deep in it, and have zero interest in the advancement of common every day people.

The idea that the CIA, FBI and intelligence community etc are actively conspiring against the Republic Party whilst giving the Democratic Party a free ride is laughable to say the least. The last time I checked the policing and military communities are not exactly a community of hippy loving lefties sitting around singing kumbuya.

My ears always stand up at people who self describe as libertarian. Almost without fail their liberterianism only extends to individuals who share somewhat similar ideals - Freedom to say and do what I want? Yes please. Freedom of movement for others. No no no no. They claim personal responsibility then throw the hand out when times are tough - see the response to the GFC.