Life After Zionist Summer Camp

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Toriola

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Haifa is gorgeous, probably the most multicultural city in Israel. You can find people from every ethnicity roaming Mount Carmel.

Haifa is beautiful, but the most multicultural part of Israel is south Tel-Aviv. Filipinos (a lot), Sri Lankans, Thais, Indians, Chinese, Sudanese, Eritreans, Romanians, Bulgarians, Arabs… pretty much every ethnicity… except jews. :eek:
 

Toriola

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I was just providing examples that opposition to zionism isn't just reserved for "liberals". Both sides of the political spectrum have their opponents and supporters of zionist Israel.

There is a huge difference though. Naturie Karta (the links you provided) opposition to Zionism stems from their belief that a Jewish state can not exist until the messiah arrives. They’re buddies with Ahmadinejad, and like Ahmadinejad they don’t give a s**t about the Palestinians, Israelis or any non-fundamentalist religious fruitcake for that matter.

The Jewish diaspora that I was alluding to in my first post aren’t anti-state like Naturie Karta, but are simply torn between their ideals and identity, and a growing (mostly young) number are finding it extremely difficult to express support for the country given their imbibed commitment to human rights. The only form of Zionism they find attractive is one which grants equal rights for all who inhabit the land, despite the consequences that this would eventually generate for the “Jewish state” – it’s ultimate demise.

It's important to note that American born Jews make up a very large percentage of the settler population, yet American born Jews only make up around 3% of the Israeli population outside the settlements. Ideology is driving here, and it's polarising the US diaspora.
 

Toriola

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blackcat, I really can't be bothered journeying back through the centuries. You seem to know more than me anyway. I know Jews had it ok in the ME, especially in Lebanon, Iraq and to a lesser extent Iran. This is 2011 though, and I maintain that Israeli Jews have one culture, and the Arabs another. Oil and water. The conflict will be never-ending.
 

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rayven

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errr....

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I hope we have educated and mature posters around here who can take this statement in the context its meant...........

its funny as phuq that the s**t that the Nazi's stirred up in the 30's to the palestinians actualy came true in the context of whats happenning and has happenned to the palestinians.....
 

Toriola

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I hope we have educated and mature posters around here who can take this statement in the context its meant...........

its funny as phuq that the s**t that the Nazi's stirred up in the 30's to the palestinians actualy came true in the context of whats happenning and has happenned to the palestinians.....
wtf are you talking about? :confused:
 

rayven

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wtf are you talking about? :confused:
as i said the Nazi's stirred up the palestinians in the 30's.......rekoned the jews were going to come there , take over and rape and pillage and colonize and all that comes with it.the nazi's were spreading fear as they had an agenda.........

its quite sureal that it actualy happenned to the palestinians.......but the nazi's could never of known that......they belived they were building a thousand year riech, they never could of foresaw that when they failed in wiping out the jews in the next decade that would be the catalist for whats happenned to the palestinians...

before that communities actualy got on and have for awhile.........but i repeat since it has suited the americans and there reliance on oil to defeat the communists that the divide the nazis and the british started continued.......
 

blackcat

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re: Toriola Jews culture =/= Palis.

U mean Ashkenazim. Sephardim and Mizrahim have a different culture, Maimonides exception. Performance at grade school level in Israel have divergent results, that can be rectified with inputs, as some studies have indicated.

Now Iraqis and Christian Palis were the most educated and qualified arabs in the ME.

And I am not talking ME and Persoans as a bloc. It is pluralist region.

See Edward Said for example, one of the most qualified academics in comparitive literature.

I think oil and water is a flawed and error strewn perception and take on it.
 

TheHeatleyStand

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Israelis are a batshit crazy wild fringe who support zionism due to messianic reasons. othodox community.

.

wow!!!

sounds like israelis in general....

MEssianic reasons
Gods chosen people
Promised land
The whole country is about this kind of crap
and youre pointing towards the ones they want peace in the region as being crazy?

lol

ya right!!!


That transplant nation is on life support and the body is rejecting it.
It wont last forever.....

not the way it is right now...

Forver is a long time.. and 65 years is a very short time....

History tells us the current status quo of IDF brutality and bully behaviour wont survive
 

Toriola

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U mean Ashkenazim. Sephardim and Mizrahim have a different culture
We need to make a distinction between Israeli culture and the various ancestral cultural subsets that exist within Israeli society. The Askenazim/Mizrahim divide began disappearing in the 70's and 80's when Israeli nationalism came to the fore. The traditions are maintained, yes - a lavish Moroccan wedding is still a lavish Moroccan wedding, but these same Moroccans are some of the most fervent Israeli nationalists around. They'll hoist the rainbow flag, because that's what Israelis do, despite their grandparents most likely turning in their grave. If the state structure were to evaporate I assume a cultural re-establishment with the palestinians could perhaps occur.

Now Iraqis and Christian Palis were the most educated and qualified arabs in the ME.
Christian Palestinians are an interesting case. Nazareth Christians maintain a sense of palestinian nationalism, while Haifa Christians have distanced themselves and have taken a more neutral position with some even enlisting in the idf. Druze, Circassians, former SLA... no problems. I think it's more a social stratification issue tbh.
I think oil and water is a flawed and error strewn perception and take on it.
I think your knowledge of Israeli society is limited.
 

blackcat

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Christian Palestinians are an interesting case. Nazareth Christians maintain a sense of palestinian nationalism, while Haifa Christians have distanced themselves and have taken a more neutral position with some even enlisting in the idf. Druze, Circassians, former SLA... no problems. I think it's more a social stratification issue tbh. I think your knowledge of Israeli society is limited.

you are right. My knowledge of Israeli society is indeed limited. I know it has lurched to the right in the last two decades since the first intifada. I know that having a gulf building bw Haredi and secular. And the Russian expats, the legit jews, not having a damascus journey.

Wont be any arabs inlisting in IDF. I know that there is material representation of Druze. Knew that much.
 

Toriola

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Didn't want to start a new thread so thought I'll just stick it in here, but there are massive demonstations in Israel right now.

What started as a post on facebook by young couples/students complaining about the ridiculous rents being charged by landlords across Israel, has transformed into a huge social justice protest against the extremely difficult living conditions in Israel in general. A protest against everything really. Approx 400,000 people were out on the streets last night which is an incredible number for a small country like Israel. Bibi is f***ed basically. To answer the obvious question, yes Arabs are involved in the demo too.

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Tent city

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Shame they don't show such passion when it comes to the crimes commited by their leaders and continual flouting of international law....

$$$$$$

If the US stopped aiding the Jewish state with upwards of $6billion a year and the populace had to pay for their own military adventures (cough...cough) I'm sure they'd suddenly be just as passionate in protests...
 

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Toriola

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Shame they don't show such passion when it comes to the crimes commited by their leaders and continual flouting of international law....

$$$$$$

If the US stopped aiding the Jewish state with upwards of $6billion a year and the populace had to pay for their own military adventures (cough...cough) I'm sure they'd suddenly be just as passionate in protests...
Way to comletely miss the point of the demonstrations. :rolleyes:

This struggle is for all the oppressed, Jews & Arabs, liberal and conservative, religious and atheist, rich and poor. The public have had enough basically... they are waking up. Momentum will be built...
 

blackcat

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Toriola, Amy Goodman, has covered this on Democracy Now, and Horton on AWR.

I dont find this that edifying to tell u the truth, and this is used as a little bit of propaganda. I am sure it is important within the Israeli state, but heck, gimme the damn borders and a true and factual narrative like Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe.

Now, all this, I reckon the US are worse than Israel, and Fallujah was a massive warcrime, and Russia are worse tho they have never really had the foreign incursions like Uncle Sam.

But this is fricken hand wringing, when there is another issue. Saw on Mondoweiss, a non-complimentary line, on some of the leftist human rights sectors of the Jewish community suggesting the Palis are mere clay of Jewish humanity.

I am conflicted in that line. I feel a solidarity with the Palis, but I dont really like how it portrays a sentiment of Jewish activists. I also try and put myself, in our brothers at arms, not in arms, with the US, and Blair, and coalition of the willing, and the gutlessness we support every move of Israel. I dont. But then, we are taking up the sword with a worse aggressor in Uncle Sam. So I see manifest hypocrisy in me holding a position. And the Singalese smited Tamils worse than anything in the old testament.

cant remember where this extemporising was intended to go...

Ahh yeah, I think one needs to be universal in their criticism, and start at home. I find it hard to reconcile the speech Gaita gave after Gaza because clearly he was ignorant and used the buzzword Holocaust numerous times. If you want to respect Shoa, dont invoke it to justify warcrimes and dispossession. Gaita volunteered in 73, for support, and he is not Jewish. He clearly is ignorant and swallowed every specious propaganda line in the hazbara tome. He is a professor of ethics within philosophy faculty. Risible, absurd.

Like the Australian Jewish News down here in Caulfield, they had a front page a month ago, on Gilad Shalit's 2000th day in captivity. Now, there are I think 5600 current political prisoners in Israeli jails, the worst one with Jeffrey Goldberg was an officer, then there are well over a hundred children in these jails, Palis. Political prisoners. We would not be calling them a democracy if we KNEW that would we, that is Stalinesque, Gulag, Egyptesque. Want em to disappear, Egypt. Want em to be tortured, Syria. That is the US State Dep't extraordinary rendition program.

OK, so I have qualified Aus are tied to the hip with the Yanks, of the Singhalese. And not even mentioned the indigenous in 2010 and Twiggy Forrest's wank. So take it as what u will, this aint one polemic on Israel, it is about human rights, and bigger than Israel. And not just Israel. But I do know the background. Cant tell me equal rights without knowing this is BS, and other talking points from hazbara 101. This is not a criticism of a jew as an individual, and the individual should take a step out from the ethnocentric pov and realise, not a criticism on an individual level, and definitely not as a jew. Jew =/= Israel. I am content with Israel remaining as a state, I fully know backroung and history, I seek an impotent justice for the Palis and give rhetoric support for them.

I dont advocate these "rockets" into Sderot and Ashkelon, even tho they are over the houses and villages of the refugees in Gaza. But the incursions, and the artillery and shelling have killed manifold the amount of victims in the southern israel. And never told except the narrow patronage of IF Americans Knew. And the Israeli Amry have a massive reserve, all fighting age, not sure how it is defined, 18 thru 40 and older commisioned officers, are part of it. They live in Ashkelon, they live in Sderot. They take buses. I am doing the inverted Hasbara. If they Israelis and Zionists do a fantastic specious hasbara and claim, then all reservists under the laws of war, are legitimate targets. And Jonathon Cook wrote great article on the fact that the Palis do not have advanced weaponry, should not make them accountable for resisting with whatever means, their primitive rockets, that are not rockets at all, they have killed, what, a dozen folk, in a decade span. And one Israel artillery shell hit a family on a beach in Gaza, got about 5 in one go. One can see how ridiculous it is, when they talk of their rockets, yet never mention that the artillery into civilian areas killed perhaps a 100 Gazans. And a dozen or less jews as victims from Pali "rockets" which are resistance. They are still blockaded, even before the last one, they are still occupied, stolen from.

Pretty simple picture no? Something is going on, and it aint right.
 

Toriola

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Another one of your "veering off on a tangent ranting about past atrocities posts". Lets stick to the issue at hand ok? This is a big deal whether your blinded glimmer of optimism can seep through or not.

The social justice demonstrations have been accused of ignoring the key issue of the occupation. But their tremendous groundswell of solidarity and cooperation is slowly gnawing at something even more significant than that – the principle of separation, of which the occupation is just one exercise.

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One of the most impressive aspects of the J14 movement is how quickly it is snowballing, drawing more and more groups and communities into a torrent of discontent. Pouring out into the streets is everything that Israelis, of all national identities, creeds and most classes complained about for years: The climbing rents, the rising prices on fuel, the parenting costs, the free-fall in the quality of public education, the overworked, unsustainable healthcare system, the complete and utter detachment of most politicians, on most levels, from most of the nation.

All this has been obfuscated for decades by the conflict, by a perpetual state of emergency; one of the benefits from leaving the occupation outside the protests, for now, was to neutralise the entire discourse of militarist fear-mongering. Contrary to what Dahlia and Joseph wrote last week, the government so far utterly failed to convince the people military needs must come before social justice; Iran has largely vanished from the news pages, and attempts to scare Israelis with references to a possible escalation with Lebanon or the Palestinian are relegated to third, fourth and fifth places in the headlines, with the texts often written in a sarcastic tone rarely employed in Israeli media on “serious” military matters.

Over the past week, though, the Palestinians themselves have begun gaining presence in the protests; not as an external threat or exclusively as monolithic victims of a monolithic Israel, but as a part and parcel of the protest movement, with their demands to rectify injustices unique to the Palestinians organically integrating with demands made by the protests on behalf of all Israelis.

First, a tent titled “1948″ was pitched on Rothschild boulevard, housing Palestinian and Jewish activists determined to discuss Palestinian collective rights and Palestinian grievances as a legitimate part of the protests. They activists tell me the arguments are exhaustive, wild and sometimes downright strange; but unlike the ultra-right activists who tried pitching a tent calling for a Jewish Tel Aviv and hoisting homophobic signs, the 1948 tenters were not pushed out, and are fast becoming part of the fabric of this “apolitical” protest.

A few days after the 1948 tent was pitched, the council of the protests – democratically elected delegates from 40 protest camps across the country – published their list of demands, including, startlingly, two of the key social justice issues unique to the Palestinians within Israel: Sweeping recognition of unrecognised Bedouin villages in the Negev; and expanding the municipal borders of Palestinian towns and villages to allow for natural development. The demands chimed in perfectly with the initial drive of the protest – lack of affordable housing.

The demands chimed in perfectly with the initial drive of the protest – lack of affordable housing. Neither issue has ever been included in the list of demands of a national, non-sectarian movement capable of bringing 300,000 people out into the streets.

And, finally, on Wednesday, residents of the Jewish poverty-stricken neighbourhood of Hatikva, many of them dyed-in-the-wool Likud activists, signed a covenant of cooperation with the Palestinian and Jewish Jaffa protesters, many of them activists with Jewish-Palestinian Hadash and nationalist-Palestinian Balad. They agreed they had more in common with each other than with the middle class national leadership of the protest, and that while not wishing to break apart from the J14 movement, they thought their unique demands would be better heard if they act together. At the rally, they marched together, arguing bitterly at times but sticking to each other, eventually even chanting mixed Hebrew and Arabic renditions of slogans from Tahrir.

Yesteday’s mega-rally was also where Palestinian partnership in the protests came to a head, when writer Odeh Bisharat spoke to nearly 300,000 people – overwhelmingly, centrist Israelis Jews – of the grievances of Palestinians in Israel and was met with raucous applause. I’ll return to that moment a little further below, but before that, perhaps I should explain why I think the participation of Palestinian citizens of Israel in the protests has more bearing on the conflict than any concentrated attempt to rally the crowds against the occupation.

On the most practical level, if the protesters had begun by blaming all of Israel’s social and political woes on the occupation, none of the breathtaking events of the past three weeks would have happened. They would have been written off as Israel-hating lefties and cast aside, just like every attempt to get mainstream Israelis to care for Palestinians before caring for themselves was cast aside for at least the past decade.

Altruist causes can rarely raise people to a sustained and genuine popular struggle against their own governments, and attempts to rally Israelis to the Palestinian cause for selfish reasons – i.e. for our own soldiers’ sake or because of the demographic time bomb – smacked of hypocrisy and ethnic nationalism; hypocrisy is a poor magnet for popular support, while ethnic nationalism is the natural instrument of the Right, not of the Left, which wields it awkwardly and usually to its own detriment.

It should be admitted, 11 years after the second Intifada, 18 years after the beginning of the peace process, that the Israeli left has utterly and abjectly failed to seriously enthuse Israelis in the project of ending the occupation. There was never a choice between a social struggle focused on the occupation and a social struggle temporarily putting the conflict aside, because the first attempt would have flopped . There was nothing to be gained by trying the same thing again for the Nth time. There have been many important victories in battles, but on the whole, the two-state left (as opposed to the two-state right) has lost the war.

The Occupation is just part of a bigger problem

But these were the tactical considerations valid only for the beginning of the protests. Social injustice does not exist in a vacuum, most certainly not in a conflict zone – and the problem in Israel-Palestine is much wider and deeper than the occupation. The occupation may be the most acute and violent injustice going on, and, like Aziz and I wrote in our New York Times op-ed last week, it’s certainly the greatest single obstacle to social justice on either side of the Green Line. But it’s still only one expression of an organising principle that has governed all of Israel-Palestine for at least the past sixty years: Separation.

Israel-Palestine today is, for all intents and purposes, a single political entity, with a single de-facto sovereign – the government in Jerusalem, but the populations this government controls, are divided into several levels of privilege. The broad outlines of the hierarchy are well-known – at the bottom are Palestinians of ‘67, who can’t even vote for the regime that governs most areas of their lives and are subject to military and bureaucratic violence on a day to day basis; Palestinians of ‘48, who can vote but are strongly and consistently discriminated and lack collective rights (which is a Jewish privilege); and finally the Israeli Jews.

But separation runs deeper than that: It employs and amplifies cultural and economic privilege to fracture each broad group into sub-groups, separating Druze from Bedouins from Palestinians, Ramallah residents from residents of Hebron, city residents from villagers, established residents from refugees; and within Jewish society, Mizrachis from Ashkenazis, settlers from green-line residents of Israel, ultra-Orthodox from secular, Russians from native-born Israelis, Ethiopians from everyone else, and so on.

The separation system is so chaotic even its privileges are far from self evident: ultra-Orthodox and settlers are seen as the communities most benefiting from the status quo, but it is important to remember the actual socio-economic standing of both is rather weak, and many in both are not only beneficiaries, but also hostages – the ultra-Orthodox to sectorial parties, the settlers to the occupation. And the occupation itself is just an instrument of separation: Its long term purpose is to acquire maximum land with a minimum of Palestinian on it, but for the past 40 years it mainly ensured half the population under the control of a certain government would have no recourse or representation with that government on any level.

And while the issue of the occupation remains to be engaged with directly in the #j14 movement, the very dynamic of the protests is already gnawing at the foundation on which the occupation rests – the separation axiom. Haggai Matar is a veteran anti-occupation activist, with a prison term for conscientious objection to serve in the IDF and countless West Bank protests under his belt. There are few people in Israel more committed to ending the occupation than him. And yet this is how he writes of yesterday’s rally:

Odeh Bisharat, the first Arab to address the mass rallies, greeted the enormous audience before him and reminded them that the struggle for social justice has always been the struggle of the Arab community, which has suffered from inequality, discrimination, state-level racism and house demolitions in Ramle, Lod, Jaffa and Al-Araqib. Not only was this met with ovation from a huge crowd of well over a hundred thousand people, but the masses actually chanted: “Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies.” And later, in a short clip of interviews from protest camps across the country, Jews and Arabs spoke, and a number of them, including even one religious Jew, repeatedly said that “it’s time for this state to be a state for all its citizens.” A state for all its citizens. As a broad, popular demand. Who would have believed it.

It would be seriously far-fetched to assume the protesters are deliberately trying to pull down the entire meshwork of rifts and boundaries. But one of the many unexpected consequences of this movement – indeed, the movement itself is an avalanche of completely unexpected consequences – is that these boundaries are beginning to blur and to seem less relevant than what brings people together. We have failed to end the occupation by confronting it head on, but the boundary-breaking, de-segregating movement could, conceivably, undermine it.

Like Noam wrote earlier today, it’s still too soon to tell where the movement will eventually go, and “it can even bring Israel further to the right; it certainly won’t be the first time in history in which social unrest led to the rise of rightwing demagogue – but right now, it is creating a space for a new conversation. Limited as this space may be, it’s so much more than we had just a month ago.” The slow erosion of separation lines means there are also possibilities opening up for new conversation about the Jewish-Palestinian divide – including the occupation

http://972mag.com/tents14/
 
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Way to comletely miss the point of the demonstrations. :rolleyes:

This struggle is for all the oppressed, Jews & Arabs, liberal and conservative, religious and atheist, rich and poor. The public have had enough basically... they are waking up. Momentum will be built...

Oooohhhh I get it.

They are waking up. Momentum will be built?? Against warcrimes by the Jewish state?? Against apartheid?? Floutiong of international law?? Ummmm nup :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

But high rent has the Jewish state up and demonstrating. :eek::eek:
 

Toriola

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Oooohhhh I get it.

They are waking up. Momentum will be built?? Against warcrimes by the Jewish state?? Against apartheid?? Floutiong of international law?? Ummmm nup :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

But high rent has the Jewish state up and demonstrating. :eek::eek:
Go away please.
 

blackcat

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no Toriola. I dont have optimism.

I think it still stands like Dov's wish.

Weisglass: Disengagement is formaldehyde for peace process

Its not a peace process. Its a process of peace for propaganda. Still stealing water resources, still cantons and bantustans, not democracy, political prisoners, not equal rights in Israel proper. Like Dessie Tutu said, apartheid.

What is a buy in to have a voice in the game? Can I only frame it in the positive aspects of Israel, and whats good for the jews. Or can I speak to disarm the hasbara and propaganda. To only frame it in the good, denies the Palis, and denies their rights, and is pretty racist and anti-arab. I think truth is the only virtue in this debate. And a solution?

What solution?

A solution will only come from Zionists, and jews, working out that they cannot treat the Palis like that, and acknowledge their land was stolen from them and the ethnic cleansing. But that wont happen. The Jewish community is too ethnocentric to consider the other. 2010, everyone knows about the pogroms and holocaust. No more movies needed, cos fundamentally such rhetoric as "never again" is BS, when Rwanda et al happens, on everyones' watch in the west, yet the Ziolobby has the power in the US to deny the Palis even a 67 border state. Its bullshit.

There is no peace process mate. To admit the truth, u can start constructing one. You cant maintain a distortion of the truth, and uphold that as the peace process and blame the victims. And, tho that might sound patronising and polemic, I am using this generic reply, not to Toriola, you, but to everyone. So the term mate is mere language, not intimating a patronising reference.

Start from truth. Then go from there. See if the jewish community can wake up from their slumber, and stop the ethnocentrism that upholds Gilad Shalit as victim, yet there are 10k prisoners, I thought it was 5600 last reference I saw. Who are also political prisoners. But they arent jews.

That has to be instuctive. It is pretty sad, but is reflective on human nature. There was a psych study I saw, some academic doco at ACMI, folks will be more racist when they perceive a threat. Like wartime. Now, it is pretty easy to see why jews could feel threatened. That is rational and irrational. Rational if the threat exists, and it did. But irrational if their is fear based upon propaganda and demagoguery. Do you really think at Scopus and Yeshiva they do not teach the propaganda narrative? I should ask my cousin, she is at Yeshiva (teaching). Do away with that, and consider the other.

[YOUTUBE]4ydoVQtGhv4[/YOUTUBE]

and

http://fora.tv/2009/09/22/Excavating_Memory_in_Jerusalem
 

blackcat

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Go away please.
Toriola, I think it is a fair and relevant criticism. I also see this as hand-ringing, and BS propanda. See: At the Wheeler Centre there was a lecture last week, should we still commit our troops in Afghanistan. This was just absurd and BS, and why would an intellectual buy into this, because the inherent premise is just assumed, question begging,

The question should be, why were we (Aus forces), why were they committed.

That was BS. This current protest and low level class conflict in Israel, is merely a manifestation of the political tide, beginning at War of Independence in 48. The jews wanted to expel the Arabs then. But this internal conflict, not internicine, just political rift, comes about from then. And merely exposes itself now in this format.

And sorry, I dont give credence to this, because they are imposing an occupation elsewhere.

I am sure it is a genuine movement to get more rights in Israel proper, atleast for the lower classes of the jewish israelis. That is laudible, I am actually for that. But without this context, I dont need to hear about this, I think it is being used as propaganda.

Hand ringing, like the lecture at the Wheeler Centre, serves purpose for those in power. The irony in Israel, the Israelis, jews and palistinean Israelis, are contesting that power, within a domestic framework. Amy Goodman had an interview, and she put this to the gentelman she was interviewing, an obvious question ofcourse. He, the spokesman, said they could never get traction or build support, if there was any political question tied into the WB and occupation.

I can see that as plausible. I dont doubt that. But WaPo, NYTimes, Australian, Age, Fairfax are doing some good propaganda communication for Israel. See: "see how fair out state is, see what a wonderful democracy we have, see what an active and engaging political discourse we have, see how we protest, see our fundamental humanity".

To me, I cant buy in. Nope.
 

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