Lights Out!

[WCE1987]

Because in the 4 years since the Labor government was booted from power, the Liberals have done what? And in all the other states... the Liberals have done what? (besides SA where they can't get elected because they ****** us so hard that no one wants them back)

Federal government doesn't have as much influence over electricity as the states.
Agreed they've also been slow to act, but previous governments have tied up some solutions in policy and current fed government attempts to get started on some solutions are being blocked.
Just like when labor was in and opposition liberals watered down the ETS to a tax that was never going to work

 

[Bradesmaen]

Federal government doesn't have as much influence over electricity as the states.
Agreed they've also been slow to act, but previous governments have tied up some solutions in policy and current fed government attempts to get started on some solutions are being blocked.
Just like when labor was in and opposition liberals watered down the ETS to a tax that was never going to work

Yes it does. It has full control over export. It created the legislation for the AEMO.

 

[Pie eyed]

It very much reminds me of Abetz and Brandis explaining metadata.

Two of the least knowledgeable humans on the planet.

Do you not see your comment doesn't marry real life?

Certainly not since Australia got an arranged marriage with Turnbull.

 

[Pessimistic]

This was going to be the COAL party's election winner

It's disappeared in a puff of smoke

Weatherill To lose govt and be parachuted into the fed arena in time for the poll

 

[Power Raid]

Large part of the blackout problem is privatisation of resources and power companies.
Governments could set price and build infrastructure from profits.
Private companies dont want to oversupply, it drives prices down and costs money to build,their job is purely to export profits.

The only way to get privatised power companies to build greener infrastructure is to have a price on carbon that punishes them for not being greener.
When that doesnt exist
SA government builds infrastructure and the federal government has to too.

No taxes in from a carbon tax to be spent on infrastructure and/or to force power companies to spend profits on infrastructure
No profits in from state owned so taxes out to build infrastructure
No incentive to spend on infrastructure so more profits exported from a privatised electricity market

Tax payer gets screwed 3x

could you explain why power stations capable of producing power, don't supply power into the grid? perhaps if you could answer that question correctly, you will have the answer to the problem.

Before you answer, think about it if you owned the power station and had fixed and variable costs to cover. Think about it as if it was coming out of your pocket, rather than some conspiracy theory.

 

[Hawk Dork]

could you explain why power stations capable of producing power, don't supply power into the grid? perhaps if you could answer that question correctly, you will have the answer to the problem.

Before you answer, think about it if you owned the power station and had fixed and variable costs to cover. Think about it as if it was coming out of your pocket, rather than some conspiracy theory.

More money to be made not too
It fired up the next day to prevent another black out though when the I imagine the pressure was put on

 

[Power Raid]

More money to be made not too
It fired up the next day to prevent another black out though when the I imagine the pressure was put on

That doesn't make sense given the fixed cost component

 

[Hawk Dork]

That doesn't make sense given the fixed cost component

“That is a massive, catastrophic failure of the national electricity market.”

But if you look at it from a financial point of view, Pelican Point’s owners Engie may have had more to gain from keeping the plant closed than sending it online.

Tony Wood, energy program director of the Grattan Institute, told news.com.au there was no evidence companies were withholding electricity supply deliberately to get higher prices for their product. But in a private system, companies are out to make money.

Normally wholesale prices for electricity hover about $50 to $70 per megawatt hour (MWh), but during peak times they can get as high as $14,000MWh.

The more power that’s available in the system, the cheaper the price generally becomes. So in times of peak demand, companies can get much more money because supply is scarce.

Only one unit of Pelican Point’s power plant was running on Wednesday and getting its second unit online may have actually brought the price it was getting for its energy.

“If the price for power stays high — at say $10,000 per megawatt hour — and stays there for several hours, (Engie) can make a lot of money,” Mr Wood said.

“But if they start their second plant (sending more power into the system) and the price crashes to $300 per megawatt hour, they don’t make as much money."

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...a/news-story/e9518d5f8532b812881ba0f21c7511e5

 

[Power Raid]

If my memory serves me correct, Australia built a fleet of mine hunters in the 80s and realised too late that the hulls were unsuitable for the sonar in confined waters rendering them useless. They were replaced with the Huon Class. The wastage was in the 100s of millions of dollars.

I was never close to the guys at Waterhen but it seems not only were they not suitable for shallow water, they hulls would break up in rough sea.

The replacements weren't any better.

hopefully we get 3rd time lucky!

 

[Power Raid]

“That is a massive, catastrophic failure of the national electricity market.”

But if you look at it from a financial point of view, Pelican Point’s owners Engie may have had more to gain from keeping the plant closed than sending it online.

Tony Wood, energy program director of the Grattan Institute, told news.com.au there was no evidence companies were withholding electricity supply deliberately to get higher prices for their product. But in a private system, companies are out to make money.

Normally wholesale prices for electricity hover about $50 to $70 per megawatt hour (MWh), but during peak times they can get as high as $14,000MWh.

The more power that’s available in the system, the cheaper the price generally becomes. So in times of peak demand, companies can get much more money because supply is scarce.

Only one unit of Pelican Point’s power plant was running on Wednesday and getting its second unit online may have actually brought the price it was getting for its energy.

“If the price for power stays high — at say $10,000 per megawatt hour — and stays there for several hours, (Engie) can make a lot of money,” Mr Wood said.

“But if they start their second plant (sending more power into the system) and the price crashes to $300 per megawatt hour, they don’t make as much money."

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...a/news-story/e9518d5f8532b812881ba0f21c7511e5

it still doesn't add up.........why would you not operate given there are fixed costs. Their is no point not delivering into a market as, no matter what the price is, the price changes the moment you deliver. Therefor a false market only serves those in the market and not those playing games.

The real answer lies in why is there a shortage in supply and that is simple

1) some power sources are unreliable and variable

2) the other is the take or pay contracts over gas vs take or pay contracts over power. Not only does this lead to readiness issues, it increases input costs, flowing onto the consumer when they can supply.

 

[Hawk Dork]

it still doesn't add up.........why would you not operate given there are fixed costs. Their is no point not delivering into a market as, no matter what the price is, the price changes the moment you deliver. Therefor a false market only serves those in the market and not those playing games.

The real answer lies in why is there a shortage in supply and that is simple

1) some power sources are unreliable and variable

2) the other is the take or pay contracts over gas vs take or pay contracts over power. Not only does this lead to readiness issues, it increases input costs, flowing onto the consumer when they can supply.

Privatisation is the problem
Generators supplying the National Electricity Market (NEM) are able to withhold capacity on hot days until the price peaks and then they can rebid their electricity at inflated prices.
This means that prices can vary from $30 to $12,500 per MWh, even though the average price is less than $60.
Generators admit that the reason for rebidding is 'financial optimisation' – that is making bigger profits.
A 2002 Council of Australian Governments (COAG) report admitted that the system enables one or two generators to 'effectively set the price at a level they choose' up to the $10,000/MWh price cap. A study by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE), a supporter of deregulation and competition in electricity markets, has confirmed that price manipulation occurs in the National Electricity Market. Such uncompetitive bidding has cost the Australian economy hundreds of millions of dollars.


The federal government's proposal to deregulate prices and introduce smart meters to solve the problem of peak electricity demand fails to recognise that even though peak electricity demand has been falling, electricity rates have been increasing, and that this will continue so long as there is an electricity market in which prices can be manipulated by electricity generators.

https://www.uow.edu.au/~sharonb/pricing.html

 

[Power Raid]

Privatisation is the problem
Generators supplying the National Electricity Market (NEM) are able to withhold capacity on hot days until the price peaks and then they can rebid their electricity at inflated prices.
This means that prices can vary from $30 to $12,500 per MWh, even though the average price is less than $60.
Generators admit that the reason for rebidding is 'financial optimisation' – that is making bigger profits.
A 2002 Council of Australian Governments (COAG) report admitted that the system enables one or two generators to 'effectively set the price at a level they choose' up to the $10,000/MWh price cap. A study by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE), a supporter of deregulation and competition in electricity markets, has confirmed that price manipulation occurs in the National Electricity Market. Such uncompetitive bidding has cost the Australian economy hundreds of millions of dollars.


The federal government's proposal to deregulate prices and introduce smart meters to solve the problem of peak electricity demand fails to recognise that even though peak electricity demand has been falling, electricity rates have been increasing, and that this will continue so long as there is an electricity market in which prices can be manipulated by electricity generators.

https://www.uow.edu.au/~sharonb/pricing.html

firstly, my god.........the language says a lot about the author's perspective.

second, yes I agree the contracting by government is atrocious but it doesn't answer the cause of the unreliable power supply delivering an outcome that prevails.

as suggested before a quota desk is required with clear mandates

 

[Ned_Flanders]

it still doesn't add up.........why would you not operate given there are fixed costs. Their is no point not delivering into a market as, no matter what the price is, the price changes the moment you deliver. Therefor a false market only serves those in the market and not those playing games.

The real answer lies in why is there a shortage in supply and that is simple

1) some power sources are unreliable and variable

2) the other is the take or pay contracts over gas vs take or pay contracts over power. Not only does this lead to readiness issues, it increases input costs, flowing onto the consumer when they can supply.

They covered this in the paper weeks ago

The mob who own it also own hazelwood

By turning on pp, the power they would sell would cost them money.

It's because the price would have dropped 66%, and the extra volume pp would sell wouldn't make up for the lost profits from hazelwood

 

[Power Raid]

They covered this in the paper weeks ago

The mob who own it also own hazelwood

By turning on pp, the power they would sell would cost them money.

It's because the price would have dropped 66%, and the extra volume pp would sell wouldn't make up for the lost profits from hazelwood

this is why we need take or pay contracts

this issue evaporates

 

[Norwegian Blue]

It created the legislation for the AEMO.

SA legislation created AEMO. Despite it being called the "National" Electricity Market, it's purely a creation of the states.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

Large part of the blackout problem is privatisation of resources and power companies.
Governments could set price and build infrastructure from profits.
Private companies dont want to oversupply, it drives prices down and costs money to build,their job is purely to export profits.

The only way to get privatised power companies to build greener infrastructure is to have a price on carbon that punishes them for not being greener.
When that doesnt exist
SA government builds infrastructure and the federal government has to too.

No taxes in from a carbon tax to be spent on infrastructure and/or to force power companies to spend profits on infrastructure
No profits in from state owned so taxes out to build infrastructure
No incentive to spend on infrastructure so more profits exported from a privatised electricity market

Tax payer gets screwed 3x

This is when, ideally, the unionised workforce would seize the means of production and negotiate directly with the consumer.

 

[Gavin Excell]

This is when, ideally, the unionised workforce would seize the means of production and negotiate directly with the consumer.

Right

 

[Gavin Excell]

The failure to get adequate money for the people of Australia from its mining resources is one of the greatest failures of all governments, but particularly the LNP for blocking one solely for political purposes. They sold out this country for the chance to rule. Even now, the mining industry is buying political influence, spending $5m so Brendon Grylls would lose his seat and not be able to propose an update to a tax negotiated in the 1960s. Gas exploration is supposed to be the next mining boom in this country, yet I doubt we will see much of the benefits.

This issue is starting to gain traction despite best efforts of apologists like the AFRs Stutch to argue that comparisons with other country's revenue generation is misleading

 

[Power Raid]

It would be interesting to reread the thread regarding "renewables aren't to blame" for the black out

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Fil...-Report-SA-Black-System-28-September-2016.pdf

Had the generation deficit not occurred, AEMO’s modelling indicates SA would have remained connected to Victoria and the Black System would have been avoided. AEMO cannot rule out the possibility that later events could have caused a black system, but is not aware of any system damage that would have done this.

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Fil...-Report-SA-Black-System-28-September-2016.pdf



Onwards and upwards but it is interesting in review to read how the different media and political elements reported or represented the event.

The recommendations are interesting including 5 and 16

 

[Pessimistic]

When we had the gas shortage in the first year of premier kennett, by this logic we should have dumped gas because it was 'unreliable'

 

[Bradesmaen]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-30/outages-in-top-end-as-storm-sweeps-in/8399950

Bloody renewables.

 

[Benny78]

Blackouts happen soon after privatization of power happens. If only we kept the 40c solar credit rebate that encouraged people to install the adequate infrastructure we now so desperately need. And not let the energy companies rape 32 cents away from it bringing it down to only 8 cents. Destroying consumer demand entirely.

Thanks lot energy companies.

 

[kwikfix]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-30/outages-in-top-end-as-storm-sweeps-in/8399950

Bloody renewables.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Not sure how that relates to my post.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Another big battery for South Australia
The biggest solar-battery farm in the world on top of the other battery the premier promised which was going to be the biggest in Australia

..........................................................
A $1 billion solar-battery farm to be built by Lyon Group and Downer EDI in South Australia's Riverland will be the world's largest and ready to help prevent blackouts in the state's fragile power grid by next summer.

Lyon Group, a Brisbane-based partnership headed by David Green and backed by Mitsubishi of Japan and US hedge fund Magnetar Capital, has secured land and will start construction in June to be operational in December.

The project includes a 330 megawatt solar farm costing $700 million and a 100MW battery with four hours of storage – or 400MWh capacity. Grid connection negotiations are well advanced on privately owned scrubland land near the town of Morgan.

A battery farm of that size would have been big enough to prevent the partial SA blackout on February 8 - but not the epic blackout that crippled the state on September 28 last year.

The Riverland project isn't dependent on the tender for grid scale batteries to fortify SA's fragile power grid announced by the Weatherill government two weeks ago - but the outcome of that tender could influence the final configuration of the Riverland project.

Lyon is set to be the first to put batteries on the ground in the race to build a world-scale storage project in Australia.

The project looms as a gamechanger in the roiling debate over how to fix SA's energy security woes and fortify the wider national grid as large eastern states follow SA's lead and install more wind and solar energy, triggering the retirement of old, coal fired power stations such as Victoria's 1600MW Hazelwood plant, which shut down its last turbines on Wednesday.

Lyon also intends to be a bidder for the 100MW storage battery contract being let by the SA government for which expressions of interest close on Friday.
http://www.afr.com/business/energy/sola ... 330-gv9tvc