Analysis Lin Jong 2017

[immortalmike]

Just to be clear- and maybe I have misunderstood- you're more interested in the behaviour of certain posters in expressing views on Jong rather than the performance of Jong? Is that what you're saying?

No. I am quite interested in the perfomance of Jong that is why I watch him play football. This thread is however a far more interesting case of confirmation bias and tribalism.

 

[Wetdog]

No.

Great. Welcome aboard the Jong train (or is it a roller coaster?). Enjoy the ride. Toot toot.

 

[Mr. Walker]

He may well, as a distributor, be hand balling under instruction. Give and go has been one of his tools of trade, but it becomes a bit of a problem if his execution fails or the receiver is not best placed to receive at such speed.

The issue for me is not so much related to speed but that the receiver has opponents so close that they will obviously be tackled immediately and the ball or momentum lost. I don't understand why Jong takes this option so often.

The quickfire handball in congestion to a teammate under pressure is not necessarily always the bad option. Jong's chief detractors on here always refer to this as one of his major negatives.

But IF the only other alternative is to boot it long to an outnumbered contest, or a ring of sweeping defenders, which will immediately turn the ball over and allow the opposition to reload with their midfielders spreading from the contest, then the quick fire handball is in fact the right option as it will either (i) (best case scenario) lead to a chain of handballs which will result in us transitioning out of the pack with possession or (ii) (worst case scenario) lead to another ball up and contested situation. Both of these options are preferable to turning it over..

You may well be right but you are giving Jong much more credit than i do for an ability to quickly assess all the options, foresee what will unfold and decide on the best course of action. I think he just consistently selects the wrong option with his handball.

 

[BRWB]

The quickfire handball in congestion to a teammate under pressure is not necessarily always the bad option. Jong's chief detractors on here always refer to this as one of his major negatives.

But IF the only other alternative is to boot it long to an outnumbered contest, or a ring of sweeping defenders, which will immediately turn the ball over and allow the opposition to reload with their midfielders spreading from the contest, then the quick fire handball is in fact the right option as it will either (i) (best case scenario) lead to a chain of handballs which will result in us transitioning out of the pack with possession or (ii) (worst case scenario) lead to another ball up and contested situation. Both of these options are preferable to turning it over.

I will be the first to admit that I cannot make the assessment on whether Jong is taking the right option in these instances. I watch on TV, whereas you actually need to be at the ground and have access to multiple angles of replay (e.g. down the ground vision). But it is overly simplistic to take the general position that these quickfire handballs to a teammate under pressure are a negative output, as it is failing to consider the counterfactual.

Before you call others simplistic, perhaps you should explore another option to kicking or short handballing.

A longer creative handball out of congestion.

Maybe you are like Jong and unable to consider this as an option?

Much of the time, Jong pretty much handballs to the nearest Bulldogs jumper directly in front of him. Blind luck if it works or not.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Unless we know what Jong's instructions are from the coaches, we're going round in circles here.

I envisage that Jong's instructions early on this season was to fire off the first handball in order to keep the ball moving quickly. When he didn't execute that very well (but was still following instructions) he was then told to slow the movement down and take a better option

 

[doggies ftw]

Dunno what it is about Jong that is so polarising. People over exaggerate how good he is and people over exaggerate how s**t he is. He is what he is, a good solid 15-22 player on the list with still quite a bit of upside. And his current form is trending upwards towards 10-15 player no doubt about it.

If players like Jong are on our fringe they're the least of our concerns!

 

[timtamWB]

Dunno what it is about Jong that is so polarising. People over exaggerate how good he is and people over exaggerate how s**t he is. He is what he is, a good solid 15-22 player on the list with still quite a bit of upside. And his current form is trending upwards towards 10-15 player no doubt about it.

If players like Jong are on our fringe they're the least of our concerns!

We all know what it is about Jong, and it was all started by a certain poster. He's ****ed this board over about Jong forever.

 

[stefoid]

Unless we know what Jong's instructions are from the coaches, we're going round in circles here.

I envisage that Jong's instructions early on this season was to fire off the first handball in order to keep the ball moving quickly. When he didn't execute that very well (but was still following instructions) he was then told to slow the movement down and take a better option

I think thats pretty wishful thinking. We have a lot of mids who are good at rapid fire handball in close, we arent playing Jong to add to those stocks. Ultimately we want him to create opportunities by carrying the ball and beating opposition with burst. To do that he has to be less reactive and plan an escape route before he receives the ball, and he has to stop being allergic to opposition pressure when he has the ball.

 

[King Harold]

I think thats pretty wishful thinking. We have a lot of mids who are good at rapid fire handball in close, we arent playing Jong to add to those stocks. Ultimately we want him to create opportunities by carrying the ball and beating opposition with burst. To do that he has to be less reactive and plan an escape route before he receives the ball, and he has to stop being allergic to opposition pressure when he has the ball.

Hate to say it but one of the worst is a bloke that used to have dreadlocks.
Hate to think how many " hospital handalls " he has given off these last few seasons.
But love him all the same

 

[dogwatch]

Hate to say it but one of the worst is a bloke that used to have dreadlocks.
Hate to think how many " hospital handalls " he has given off these last few seasons.
But love him all the same

Didn't realise you felt that way about Andrejs ... especially after all this time. Royal prerogative, I guess.

 

[Wetdog]

Before you call others simplistic, perhaps you should explore another option to kicking or short handballing.

A longer creative handball out of congestion.

Maybe you are like Jong and unable to consider this as an option?

Much of the time, Jong pretty much handballs to the nearest Bulldogs jumper directly in front of him. Blind luck if it works or not.

Your suggestion is to handball the ball longer to a free teammate? Yes. Groundbreaking. This is obviously ideal if the option is there. But it isn't always - that feeds into my whole point. The short sharp handball to a teammate in congestion isn't ALWAYS the wrong option. Sometimes it is the only option, or even the preferable option. It depends on the circumstances.

I am the first to admit Jong has limitations and one of them is that he is prone to lose his composure and take the wrong handball option. Blind Freddy can see that.

 

[Wetdog]

You may well be right but you are giving Jong much more credit than i do for an ability to quickly assess all the options, foresee what will unfold and decide on the best course of action. I think he just consistently selects the wrong option with his handball.

I agree - it is an area which he needs to get better. He does sometimes take the wrong option. If he doesn't get better at this, it could be the difference between a 60 game fringe career and a 150 game good career.

My point was that it is not always the wrong option as some on here would have you believe. To make the assessment you need to consider the particular contest and options at play. I suspect that there are a bunch of people who do that - the coaches - and they just happen to be some of the same people who select him each week.

He has some upside. He has some downside. Maybe he will make it, maybe he won't. It's a tough call. I have been inclined to back him in over the last 24 months because he is a hard worker who has some nice attributes. I am an optimist at heart.

 

[Tommycash]

This year he is one of the few players who hasn't dramatically dropped off in form. He's still on the fringe though.

 

[bresker]

What you notice about a lot of our mids is that they take the tackle, but keep their hands free and release the ball anywhere in a 360 arc before the tackle is complete. Given his bulk and height Jong should be good at this. He might even break right through the tackle. But he handballs before the contact. Just crash into them fella.

 

[perro_loco]

I would disagree. I don't think teams have woken up to us. They are beating us inside because we are playing a game style where this is no longer our focus.

Ok so what is our focus or game plan? I am yet to see what we are trying to do. Partly, I attribute it to these things. 1) Not fit enough due to gf and 4 weeks later for preseason. 2) gf hangover. I can see this in some players, libra, Bont. mboyd, et al. 3) other teams have worked out our system and are trying to slain the king. 4) we are trying a new way of playing and it has yet to click.
nevertheless, we are in 6th position. I think we will be good against gws.

 

[Libba39]

Ok so what is our focus or game plan? I am yet to see what we are trying to do.

Not claiming any inside or specialist knowledge but the way I see it (and have mentioned in other post/s) is that we are or were playing more of a traditional game style to give Boyd and Cloke more room to mark. The game is more about space for leading rather than winning the ball at stoppages or using a huge forward press to lock the ball inside 50 until we score.

I used the word 'were' as with Cloke and Crameri out and Smith/Dunkley in i reckon we might revert to this. Also we can't afford to lose the clearance count any longer, especially in our captain's 300th.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Ok so what is our focus or game plan? I am yet to see what we are trying to do. Partly, I attribute it to these things. 1) Not fit enough due to gf and 4 weeks later for preseason. 2) gf hangover. I can see this in some players, libra, Bont. mboyd, et al. 3) other teams have worked out our system and are trying to slain the king. 4) we are trying a new way of playing and it has yet to click.
nevertheless, we are in 6th position. I think we will be good against gws.

Fitness and possible hangover wouldn't stop you from seeing a game plan.

 

[andymish1980]

Hopefully other step forward on Saturday Lin

 

[Wetdog]

Oh dear, Lin! Some of the worst kicking in front of goal I have seen in some time! Then it became contagious! I laughed, then I almost cried! What has happened? He was a reliable set shot at some point, but seems to have lost it. Same with Stringer.

Thought it was a pretty average match from Jong. Not great. Not poor. 6/10. Just bog standard average. He used his pace nicely at times, gave away some decent handballs, a few desperate kicks out of defence when needed. Went missing at times, but feel like he was forward of centre more than usual. It felt like an 'almost' game from him. He could have kicked three goals when you think about it (but didn't, so that is all that matters). Hope he can improve some more at the stoppages, as we desperately need to fix our clearances.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

Was at the footy and this guy was standing next to me, he told me this story. Now I don't know how true it is, and you don't have to agree with the opinion. Here it is.

Now he said his son plays footy with clarko's boy and was having a chat with clarko.

Clarko said that he rated Jong in the 20 in the comp but no one would see it.

The reason he gave was because he is so hard to match up on in the middle, his hard at, goes in hard and he's so big. When he goes forward he is hardly beaten or out marked.

Now again I don't know how true this story is, but taking the guy on face value. This is how one of the greatest coaches of all time sees Lin Jong, impossible to match up on and rated in the top20 in the comp.

 

[Wetdog]

Was at the footy and this guy was standing next to me, he told me this story. Now I don't know how true it is, and you don't have to agree with the opinion. Here it is.

Now he said his son plays footy with clarko's boy and was having a chat with clarko.

Clarko said that he rated Jong in the 20 in the comp but no one would see it.

The reason he gave was because he is so hard to match up on in the middle, his hard at, goes in hard and he's so big. When he goes forward he is hardly beaten or out marked.

Now again I don't know how true this story is, but taking the guy on face value. This is how one of the greatest coaches of all time sees Lin Jong, impossible to match up on and rated in the top20 in the comp.

Jong rarely gets beaten forward. Either marks it or brings the ball to ground. That is a good trait to have.

His strength in the forward fifty used to be reliable set shots and contested marking. He seems to have lost the former today which infected the whole team.

He seriously could have kicked three or four today (he got got burned once on the lead by a poor kick) but he didn't. That is all that matters. Maybe next time...

Amazed that so many want him dropped. He looks like one of our more threatening midfielders.

 

[The Inbetweener]

Can see this thread getting ugly.

I just don't see him as best 22 but obviously the coach does.

For mind the bad out does the good.

Great mark but has no goal awareness and needs to stop handballing to players who are a metre away with someone on them

 

[The Original Swooper]

Does anybody have data that goes back far enough to find a game where a team had their "best 22" all available ? Realty of modern footy (especially if the team is the WB) you need 30 capable players
At the moment, with 4-6 of our best n/a we are down to #'s 26-28. Jong is definitely in that cut. Spare me the abysmal kicking for goal yesterday argument. He was not Robinson Crusoe. Spare me the "he's not getting enough clearances" drivel. Is Libba ? Clay smith is one of my faves. Is he tearing it up ? No
Jong is part of our best available 22 for now. Get used to it.
The only guy I see as banging very heavily on the door is Bailey Williams. Webb & Daniel are tapping on it. Dickson and Wallis are reportedly due VFL games next week. Let's see what happens with those guys back in the mix.
I could argue Toyd is not best 22 at the mo. What options do we have. None ! Some suggest Campbell. I think his efforts are underrated but regardless, we don't have another option
It seems Jong's good work goes unnoticed whilst his clangers are seen as the equivalent to the holocast. If whipping boy was a position he'd be AA. A well known poster continually derides his performances on every thread on this forum, ironically, except in the thread dedicated to him. I think we should redraft Christian Howard to take the pressure of Lin.

End rant.

 

[Wetdog]

Does anybody have data that goes back far enough to find a game where a team had their "best 22" all available ? Realty of modern footy (especially if the team is the WB) you need 30 capable players
At the moment, with 4-6 of our best n/a we are down to #'s 26-28. Jong is definitely in that cut. Spare me the abysmal kicking for goal yesterday argument. He was not Robinson Crusoe. Spare me the "he's not getting enough clearances" drivel. Is Libba ? Clay smith is one of my faves. Is he tearing it up ? No
Jong is part of our best available 22 for now. Get used to it.
The only guy I see as banging very heavily on the door is Bailey Williams. Webb & Daniel are tapping on it. Dickson and Wallis are reportedly due VFL games next week. Let's see what happens with those guys back in the mix.
I could argue Toyd is not best 22 at the mo. What options do we have. None ! Some suggest Campbell. I think his efforts are underrated but regardless, we don't have another option
It seems Jong's good work goes unnoticed whilst his clangers are seen as the equivalent to the holocast. If whipping boy was a position he'd be AA. A well known poster continually derides his performances on every thread on this forum, ironically, except in the thread dedicated to him. I think we should redraft Christian Howard to take the pressure of Lin.

End rant.

Jong is one of the few players who has actually improved this year. If everyone had improved like Jong, then we would be in a much better position.

Jong is far from perfect, but he is doing his bit at the moment.

I am in the unfortunate position of not being able to watch our VFL matches, but if Bailey Williams is banging the door down, then move aside Biggs.

The guy who continusely and mercilessly bags Jong is the same guy who bagged Tory Dickson all last season. And we know how that ended. Tory embarrassed him.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

The best and the worst of Jong all in one quarter! Man he was good in the first. He was dead set awesome, until he had to kick for goal!

If he puts it all together he will be a weapon.