Analysis Lin Jong 2017

[BRWB]

When you have such a young side with injuries, players like Jong, Webb and Honey are always going to get games.

So you're going to be complaining about one of them. Jong offers a lot more than what the other two have shown so I'd rather it be him in the team.

Fwiw, honey before Webb too.

Its funny, Bev agrees with you, but I feel anticipation and excitement if Webb marks the ball. I get a feeling of anxiety and even dread when Honey or Jong mark the ball.

Webb has been crucified by never being given a proper role or block of games to allow him adjust to the pace of AFL. Been handled bizarrely. Webb should leave as he may still make it. The other two are what they are.

 

[Golden_6]

Its funny, Bev agrees with you, but I feel anticipation and excitement if Webb marks the ball. I get a feeling of anxiety and even dread when Honey or Jong mark the ball.

Webb has been crucified by never being given a proper role or block of games to allow him adjust to the pace of AFL. Been handled bizarrely. Webb should leave as he may still make it. The other two are what they are.

I agree that Webb has been handled poorly, but I think it’s due to the coaching staff not being able to find a position for him. Where do you think he should play? I genuinely can’t find a spot for him that he will succeed in.

 

[BRWB]

I agree that Webb has been handled poorly, but I think it’s due to the coaching staff not being able to find a position for him. Where do you think he should play? I genuinely can’t find a spot for him that he will succeed in.

Ive always though he would make a decent half back and that he should have spent the last few years learning to defend. He has some tools with the vision, the leg and being good overhead.

Clearly there was a spot at HBF as we just recruited two more at the end of last yr....

I still think he can play HBF alongside Crozier with Richards developing in the twos and JJ and Suckling playing further up the ground.

But Im not sure he has been developed for this role so I tend to think he leaves comes year's end. Has ten times the talent but has been treated far worse than Honey and Ayce.

 

[Golden_6]

Ive always though he would make a decent half back and that he should have spent the last few years learning to defend. He has some tools with the vision, the leg and being good overhead.

Clearly there was a spot at HBF as we just recruited two more at the end of last yr....

I still think he can play HBF alongside Crozier with Richards developing in the twos and JJ and Suckling playing further up the ground.

But Im not sure he has been developed for this role so I tend to think he leaves comes year's end. Has ten times the talent but has been treated far worse than Honey and Ayce.

I agree that he has the offensive skill set to be a HBF but unfortunately think he would get eaten alive defensively. He has no leg speed and since he would playing on smaller types, it just wouldn’t work. I feel like he would be considerably exposed and possibly why the club hasn’t even entertained him at that spot since his first year.

 

[BRWB]

I agree that he has the offensive skill set to be a HBF but unfortunately think he would get eaten alive defensively. He has no leg speed and since he would playing on smaller types, it just wouldn’t work. I feel like he would be considerably exposed and possibly why the club hasn’t even entertained him at that spot since his first year.

Is he that much slower than Matty Boyd was or Suckling is? Or say a Luke Hodge is? I wouldnt play him on the quickest fwd and in any case we play a zone...

But clearly the club isnt playing him there or anywhere so I can't imagine him staying. If I'm Webb, Id be pretty frustrated watching far less skilled players regularly get picked ahead of me in a team known for its lack of skill.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

I agree that Webb has been handled poorly, but I think it’s due to the coaching staff not being able to find a position for him. Where do you think he should play? I genuinely can’t find a spot for him that he will succeed in.

Disagree. It's due to him not finding a position himself. What he does is alright, just doesn't do enough.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Its funny, Bev agrees with you, but I feel anticipation and excitement if Webb marks the ball. I get a feeling of anxiety and even dread when Honey or Jong mark the ball.

Webb has been crucified by never being given a proper role or block of games to allow him adjust to the pace of AFL. Been handled bizarrely. Webb should leave as he may still make it. The other two are what they are.

The issue is, with Webb you don't get that feeling often enough.

 

[Next Waiting]

Interesting to look at the Geelong and Swans game yesterday. The thing Geelong needed to do most yesterday in the last quarter was to stop Kennedy. Just stop him, just curb him. But they didn't have someone who could or would, which is actually a little surprising. Cost them the game - at home.

 

[Libba39]

Lets face it we don't have anywhere near the depth that we had 2 years ago when we had injuries and atill had guys like Hrovat and Stevens unable to get a game.

Jong and Wallis did a world of in and under work on Friday and we need this in order to beat teams. We're not flashy enough on the outside or up forward where we could afford to lose badly in clearances and still win games.

This is why Jong can and will continue to stay in the side.

 

[Next Waiting]

Some good points re handballing and fatigue.

His fumbling though is just constant 1st qtr or last imo.

Biggish body and has a crack so Im not seeing him going anywhere at present.

As a bit of an exercise, what parameters/KPIs would you have for Jongy.

There are opposition teams where I can make the case that he shouldn't play (teams with lesser midfield threats) unless he is meeting KPI targets. In those games he would be forward perhaps 75 - 80% of the time. He would have to be a viable goal kicking threat - one that can't be ignored. To be that he would have to convert at 50% or better from 45m or less at 35 degs or better - so primarily in the corridor (20 goals and 20 points over the season would be acceptable IMO).

His tackling and tackling pressure would have to be constant, he would need to dispose at 75% or better (as an 80% fwd time player), when marking I50 would need to have a 1 in 3 goal assist/score involvement ratio from his next disposal (wide angle not having a shot), would have to get to multiple marking contests and mark or split at 70%, and be a constant intercept mark threat from opposition kick ins. Where he is primarily playing forward (80%) he would need to meet this otherwise there are likely to be better options. For every minute above the 20-25% that he plays in the more taxing environment of the midfield he gets some leeway on his fwd KPIs.

Against teams with strong midfields and players like Fyfe, Cripps etc who require attention for periods, he's likely to be close to 50/50 perhaps 40/60 mid/fwd. A bit harder to decide as he's likely to be involved in more of the play with less time under more pressure. More cost/benefit. His effectiveness on quelling his opponent and allowing team mates opportunities (first use etc) probably the determining factor in success or failure where his effectiveness in stopping the threat is influential enough in enabling us to win the game regardless of margin or asthetics.

That said, a fully fit Libba and it's hard to find a place for one of Jongy or Dunkley (on current form). Add a fully fit Dickson and it becomes hard to find a place for either with Gowers and now Lipinski looking likely barring injury or form/management issues. If Jongy was still required then you're looking at Wallis, Dahl, Daniel or Dale. He'd have to be really firing and consistent to put any one of those out or they'd have to be in really bad form.

 

[dish licker]

To me Jong plays like he believes he is not good enough so panics when he gets the ball," happy to do all the grunt stuff but for f...sake don't give me the ball", always finds a way to mess up and in forward 50 shits his pants, you can see he doesn't want it, pity really cos no doubt a great guy but needs to boost his ego, needs to learn to believe in himself.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Don’t mind Jong at all. He’s got plenty of ticker which we aren’t seeing much of amongst a few of the other players.
Can see why he’s in the side as he offers things across multiple lines. Good contested footballer, strong mark over head up fwd and intercepting across HB.
He chases hard and applies a s**t load of pressure when around a contest and lays tackles.

We also need to remember he hasn’t done a propper preseason since 2015/16 due to injuries.

He’s never going to be the cleanest by hand or foot but decision making will get better over time.

Sometimes it’s as if Dog fans can’t bare a player unless he’s a Bont, Macrae etc.
Its actually quiet humorous that those calling for Jong to be dropped, get shitty that a poor performing Webb doesnt get a run of 150 games to make sure 100% he hasn’t got what it takes.

Jongs not a terrible player, some just have ridiculous views on what makes a decent player.

 

[Next Waiting]

To me Jong plays like he believes he is not good enough so panics when he gets the ball," happy to do all the grunt stuff but for f...sake don't give me the ball", always finds a way to mess up and in forward 50 shits his pants, you can see he doesn't want it, pity really cos no doubt a great guy but needs to boost his ego, needs to learn to believe in himself.

Does look like that is part of it. He should have a chat to Dale Morris and dip his toe in the waters of positive of visualisation.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

To me Jong plays like he believes he is not good enough so panics when he gets the ball," happy to do all the grunt stuff but for f...sake don't give me the ball", always finds a way to mess up and in forward 50 shits his pants, you can see he doesn't want it, pity really cos no doubt a great guy but needs to boost his ego, needs to learn to believe in himself.

He must read Big Footy

 

[BRWB]

Don’t mind Jong at all. He’s got plenty of ticker which we aren’t seeing much of amongst a few of the other players.
Can see why he’s in the side as he offers things across multiple lines. Good contested footballer, strong mark over head up fwd and intercepting across HB.
He chases hard and applies a s**t load of pressure when around a contest and lays tackles.

We also need to remember he hasn’t done a propper preseason since 2015/16 due to injuries.

He’s never going to be the cleanest by hand or foot but decision making will get better over time.

Sometimes it’s as if Dog fans can’t bare a player unless he’s a Bont, Macrae etc.
Its actually quiet humorous that those calling for Jong to be dropped, get shitty that a poor performing Webb doesnt get a run of 150 games to make sure 100% he hasn’t got what it takes.

Jongs not a terrible player, some just have ridiculous views on what makes a decent player.

Not sure I agree with much of that.

A - im not saying Jong should be dropped

B - i reckon Webb should get a block of 4-6 games to settle in like just about every other player has

C - Jong.offers physicality and running and marking. He also offers fumbling, s**t decision making, poor or missed handballs and kicks, plus woeful set shot kicking. With that resume he shouldn't be playing much AFL. Sadly our list is in such a state that he isn't even close to being dropped

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Not sure I agree with much of that.

A - im not saying Jong should be dropped

B - i reckon Webb should get a block of 4-6 games to settle in like just about every other player has

C - Jong.offers physicality and running and marking. He also offers fumbling, s**t decision making, poor or missed handballs and kicks, plus woeful set shot kicking. With that resume he shouldn't be playing much AFL. Sadly our list is in such a state that he isn't even close to being dropped

You make out that every disposal and decision Jong makes is terrible. That’s just not true. His goal kicking is t as bad as your staying. If he’s woeful then 70% of the team is ******* horrendous.
It’s pretty clear Jong does what’s instructed by the coaches which could be why Webb doesn’t get any continuity in his games.
It’s also clear that Webb doesn’t offer anywhere near enough to hold his spot while not playing outstanding football, he needs to be racking up 15+ disposals at 80%+, kicking goals regularly, assisting scores and stats along those lines because he doesn’t tackle, he doesn’t pressure, he has zero contested game. If we saw high numbers in either the former or latter stats mentioned then yeah I’d think he deserves a run of games. But we aren’t seeing either.
Take Webb’s left foot away and he wouldn’t even be playing VFL.

Local footy is littered with players who dominate the twos but don’t do what’s required by the team and coaches when they get called up. I’ve played with a number of these blokes and it’s frusterating as hell.
Webb is in this bracket and if he offered more than a good left foot the coaches may give him some leeway.

I’d like to hear what part of his game in the last few years at AFL level you’ve seen that suggests he deserves a long run of games. Because besides a couple of decent ones early in his career he’s been putrid across almost all stats since then.

 

[BRWB]

You make out that every disposal and decision Jong makes is terrible. That’s just not true. His goal kicking is t as bad as your staying. If he’s woeful then 70% of the team is ******* horrendous.
It’s pretty clear Jong does what’s instructed by the coaches which could be why Webb doesn’t get any continuity in his games.
It’s also clear that Webb doesn’t offer anywhere near enough to hold his spot while not playing outstanding football, he needs to be racking up 15+ disposals at 80%+, kicking goals regularly, assisting scores and stats along those lines because he doesn’t tackle, he doesn’t pressure, he has zero contested game. If we saw high numbers in either the former or latter stats mentioned then yeah I’d think he deserves a run of games. But we aren’t seeing either.
Take Webb’s left foot away and he wouldn’t even be playing VFL.

Local footy is littered with players who dominate the twos but don’t do what’s required by the team and coaches when they get called up. I’ve played with a number of these blokes and it’s frusterating as hell.
Webb is in this bracket and if he offered more than a good left foot the coaches may give him some leeway.

I’d like to hear what part of his game in the last few years at AFL level you’ve seen that suggests he deserves a long run of games. Because besides a couple of decent ones early in his career he’s been putrid across almost all stats since then.

You make some good points.

I will say that Webb has often been played at starvation corner so setting mid targets is unreasonable. Im not saying Webb is any greats shakes, i'd just like to see him get a fair run at it to find out once and for all. One game here or there tells us SFA.

The amount of times Jong handballs too hard, at a teammate's feet or behind him is too often. And nothing stats pick up. Stats certainly dont pick up his pretty constant fumbling. But in any case you are mispresenting my views - Jong doesnt f@ck up every possie, he just stuffs up more than is acceptable for a competent AFL player of his experience IMO.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

To me Jong plays like he believes he is not good enough so panics when he gets the ball," happy to do all the grunt stuff but for f...sake don't give me the ball", always finds a way to mess up and in forward 50 shits his pants, you can see he doesn't want it, pity really cos no doubt a great guy but needs to boost his ego, needs to learn to believe in himself.

I'm convinced there is something to this. Obviously vfl is a step below but the way Jong can dominate vfl suggests there is confidence issues at afl level to me. If I was Bev I'd tell Jong he has a licence to be tackled. Encourage him to burst away before disposing.

 

[dogwatch]

I'm convinced there is something to this. Obviously vfl is a step below but the way Jong can dominate vfl suggests there is confidence issues at afl level to me. If I was Bev I'd tell Jong he has a licence to be tackled. Encourage him to burst away before disposing.

Tick.
I think I read a year or so back that Jong was the fastest at the club over 20m from a standing start. The trouble is we hardly ever see him use that burst speed offensively. He's used more in heavy traffic. We just don't see him hurt the opposition enough.

If he's not too old a dog to be teaching new tricks to, he needs to learn how to hurt the opposition regularly with breakaways from traffic. That's what makes Fyfe and Martin so damaging, and even Stringer when he's on. I'm not saying he can get to the same level as those sort of players but he'd win a lot more favour here and a lot more respect from opposition players if he showed a few times that he could break the lines like that. Maybe get him to train with the Storm full-backs for a few sessions practising evasive runs through opposition defenders.

I've also been an advocate of trying him as a medium-tall deep forward because of his speed and aerial marking ability but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen any time soon.

 

[lachy]

He has been at the club since 2012.

Ball in hand he is worse than Honeychurch.

His attrubutes as suggested are nice for VFL or local footy but in no way are they AFL standard if we want to be top 4.

If we want to just be an average AFL club by all means keep playing him but we are not serious contenders if we keep playing him and expecting improvement 6 years into the system

 

[dogwatch]

He has been at the club since 2012.
Ball in hand he is worse than Honeychurch.
His attrubutes as suggested are nice for VFL or local footy but in no way are they AFL standard if we want to be top 4.
If we want to just be an average AFL club by all means keep playing him but we are not serious contenders if we keep playing him and expecting improvement 6 years into the system

Well of course we don't want to be an average club - that's the old accepting mediocrity discussion. We want better players taking the place of the fringe 22 players like Jong.

But have a look at who we have available right now. For the record I suggested in the changes thread we drop Jong this week but it seems unlikely to happen.

Given that, the recent posts have moved to "how can we make best use of him if he's not going to be dropped"?

 

[bobby2]

Is he that much slower than Matty Boyd was or Suckling is? Or say a Luke Hodge is? I wouldnt play him on the quickest fwd and in any case we play a zone...

But clearly the club isnt playing him there or anywhere so I can't imagine him staying. If I'm Webb, Id be pretty frustrated watching far less skilled players regularly get picked ahead of me in a team known for its lack of skill.

Suckling has decent leg speed, which is often masked by his tendency to move slowly when disposing of the ball.

Hodge and Boyd have always shown a grit and intensity at the contest that we've never really seen from Webb. I think a slow medium defender without that is going to struggle defensively.

It's a shame, because Webb was always compared to Hodge, and he could be a similar player if he had that intensity. Hopefully he manages to turn it around, because he really would complement the team.

One thing's for sure, if you could put all of Jong, honey and Webb's strengths into one player, you'd have a star.

 

[Equus]

Has Lin Jong regressed since winning the VFL BOG medal?
Apologies for the intrusion.

 

[Tommycash]

Interesting to look at the Geelong and Swans game yesterday. The thing Geelong needed to do most yesterday in the last quarter was to stop Kennedy. Just stop him, just curb him. But they didn't have someone who could or would, which is actually a little surprising. Cost them the game - at home.

In fairness, a firing Kennedy is pretty tough to stop.

 

[Tommycash]

Has Lin Jong regressed since winning the VFL BOG medal?
Apologies for the intrusion.

I would expect Jong to be dominating at VFL level. He normally does when he goes back down. So I wouldn't say he has regressed at that level. He probably has at AFL level, he really hasn't found nearly as good form in the AFL since 2015/16ish.

Part of that might be the abolishment of third man ups, which gave him an avenue to impact the game more as well as contest a ruck and be used by an inside player to get the ball out of a stoppage as he kept moving through (some of his games in that period he really looked explosive).

He definitely seems to be the kind of player who coaches appreciate more than the fans, and I expect a player at his age to be delivering more. Might help if he didn't keep getting smashed in the head every time he plays (elbow from English, massive falcon) but yes, ramble ramble ramble, I hope he can get it together again because he can be great for us, sometimes.