Lions Season 2020

CarterS

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I did think that other teams worked out Charlie a bit in the last half dozen weeks of the season and his influence was dulled a bit... playing on Grimes twice in a row not great in this regard. Teams won't let us isolate him like they would in the first half of the season. Luckily 1) Charlie has acknowledged this, and 2) we also had the widest range of goal kickers especially coming from the midfield.
 

Dlions

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Maroon Monsoon

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I did think that other teams worked out Charlie a bit in the last half dozen weeks of the season and his influence was dulled a bit... playing on Grimes twice in a row not great in this regard. Teams won't let us isolate him like they would in the first half of the season. Luckily 1) Charlie has acknowledged this, and 2) we also had the widest range of goal kickers especially coming from the midfield.
Dunno if I agree with this - I felt like only Grimes had him figured out and his performance against all other comers was still pretty dominant. In the four games before the first Richmond game he had totals of 6 goals, 5 goals, 4 goals and 2 goals against opponents that included 2 finals teams and the 9th placed team.

Admittedly he was also quieter in the giants game, but he was playing with a stuffed arm for 90% of that one. All things considered id say his 2 goal return there was still very impressive.

It might be true in a sense that other teams have realised he performs worse against tall strong defenders with the speed to keep up with him, but there also aren't many of those currently in the competition. For primarily one-on-one defenders the list might almost start and end with grimes
 

Caiphus

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Charlie kicked 6 and 5 goals in round 21 and 22. The 5.2 was against the stingiest defence in the home and away season, and i'm not talking just in a points-against sense, Geelong was the team that was best at stopping goal assists; so to get a good score against them you basically have to create goals yourself. If anything Charlie got worked out after the first two rounds and had to find a way to be effective again after his performances between round 3-8 being the leanest part of his season.

Coming to the games against Richmond, he was able to still do some damage against a great defensive stopper it was that the rest of the forward line and our defensive transitions that let us down there by not taking advantage of Grimes being so Cameron focused.

The way Charlie gets even better is if McStay (or someone else with crash and bash potential) can become more of a marking/goal-kicking threat inside 40m or Hippy is able to up his physicality instead of playing like a 202cm medium. We need Charlie to have crumbs to feed off as well as ground ball one-on-ones in space.
 

briztoon

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I don’t believe Cameron got “figured out” by Richmond and Grimes.

I believe Cameron played a stupid brand of football and got suckered in to a style he’s not suited to play.

I said it at the game, and on here post game. But more importantly, Cameron said it in a recent article on AFL.com.

Cameron tried wrestling with Grimes, often actually initiating contact and the subsequent wrestle. He was never going to win such a matchup and negated his own best asset, his speed.

Cameron needed to play more a lead up forward game, and either create separation and take a mark, or create space for a ball over the back, where he could turn and use his agility and speed to be the first to a ground ball.
 

Tom14

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I don’t believe Cameron got “figured out” by Richmond and Grimes.

I believe Cameron played a stupid brand of football and got suckered in to a style he’s not suited to play.

I said it at the game, and on here post game. But more importantly, Cameron said it in a recent article on AFL.com.

Cameron tried wrestling with Grimes, often actually initiating contact and the subsequent wrestle. He was never going to win such a matchup and negated his own best asset, his speed.

Cameron needed to play more a lead up forward game, and either create separation and take a mark, or create space for a ball over the back, where he could turn and use his agility and speed to be the first to a ground ball.
Part of that was the issues our team had as a whole in both games v richmond though - when we were able to move the ball quickly before richmond's team defence was set up, charlie seemed to have a bit more space to work with and had a better chance (e.g. his goal in the third quarter of the round 23 game). But for the most part they could set up and vlaustin et al chopped the ball off with ease. That's one thing I want to see us improve on this year, as against the strongest teams were were too conservative in our ball movement. I know that style worked ok but when we came up against the stronger teams we struggled to score.

Similarly in both tigers games (and the GWS game too) our key forwards couldn't halve a marking contest to save themselves, and the only medium who occasionally competed well in spurts was Rayner who was nowhere near ready to do so consistently. It's hard for a small forward to crumb when the opposition seemingly intercept marks nearly every forward entry.

Charlie was well beaten by grimes and I agree didn't play a smart style, and was also not helped out by teammates.

Thankfully players like Grimes and Steven May are pretty rare so this type of matchup is not very common.
 

Mighty Lions

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Part of that was the issues our team had as a whole in both games v richmond though - when we were able to move the ball quickly before richmond's team defence was set up, charlie seemed to have a bit more space to work with and had a better chance (e.g. his goal in the third quarter of the round 23 game). But for the most part they could set up and vlaustin et al chopped the ball off with ease. That's one thing I want to see us improve on this year, as against the strongest teams were were too conservative in our ball movement. I know that style worked ok but when we came up against the stronger teams we struggled to score.

Similarly in both tigers games (and the GWS game too) our key forwards couldn't halve a marking contest to save themselves, and the only medium who occasionally competed well in spurts was Rayner who was nowhere near ready to do so consistently. It's hard for a small forward to crumb when the opposition seemingly intercept marks nearly every forward entry.

Charlie was well beaten by grimes and I agree didn't play a smart style, and was also not helped out by teammates.

Thankfully players like Grimes and Steven May are pretty rare so this type of matchup is not very common.
For a large chunk of games in 2019, our game plan was to "clear out" space around Charlie to allow him to weave the magic he was able to do so well. After a period of time, opposition clubs worked it out and put strategies in place to stem Charlie's dominance which sometimes worked but sometimes didn't stop him. It had nothing to do with our key forwards inabilities to impact the game as you expected them to do above. Their role was simple and concise: take your opposition player away from the ball as much as possible and give Charlie room to move.
Its funny how we (as supporters) see some areas in our game that are inadequate and criticise accordingly, while often they are all part of instructions to each player that he is expected to follow.
 

Tom14

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For a large chunk of games in 2019, our game plan was to "clear out" space around Charlie to allow him to weave the magic he was able to do so well. After a period of time, opposition clubs worked it out and put strategies in place to stem Charlie's dominance which sometimes worked but sometimes didn't stop him. It had nothing to do with our key forwards inabilities to impact the game as you expected them to do above. Their role was simple and concise: take your opposition player away from the ball as much as possible and give Charlie room to move.
Its funny how we (as supporters) see some areas in our game that are inadequate and criticise accordingly, while often they are all part of instructions to each player that he is expected to follow.
I think you are overstating my criticism here and I don't disagree with you regarding what our gameplan was, and it worked very well the vast majority of the season.

Unfortunately, against Richmond we weren't able to clear out space for Charlie very often for whatever reason (I tend to think it is ball movement, but you can throw some blame at charlie's technique as well), and we couldn't compensate for that with alternate routes to goal because we seemed to be outmarked pretty frequently. Either that or the ball movement was poor and to our forwards disadvantage and the spare Richmond defender swept it up. It was probably a combo of both.

Regardless I don't think it is a big deal to suggest that our other forwards performing better would have assisted Charlie a bit in those last 3 games of the season. It doesn't make them bad players or the gameplan suspect etc, it just means that against the best teams we will need a more even contribution and probably have to develop some alternate approaches for when charlie is well held.
 

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martinson

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I think you are overstating my criticism here and I don't disagree with you regarding what our gameplan was, and it worked very well the vast majority of the season.

Unfortunately, against Richmond we weren't able to clear out space for Charlie very often for whatever reason (I tend to think it is ball movement, but you can throw some blame at charlie's technique as well), and we couldn't compensate for that with alternate routes to goal because we seemed to be outmarked pretty frequently. Either that or the ball movement was poor and to our forwards disadvantage and the spare Richmond defender swept it up. It was probably a combo of both.

Regardless I don't think it is a big deal to suggest that our other forwards performing better would have assisted Charlie a bit in those last 3 games of the season. It doesn't make them bad players or the gameplan suspect etc, it just means that against the best teams we will need a more even contribution and probably have to develop some alternate approaches for when charlie is well held.
There's lots of reasons we fell down a bit against Richmond but overall they were too strong,seasoned and disciplined for us.

Match up in those areas and the tactical issues will solve themselves as well.
 

Quigley

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Cameron had 57 goals last year. That is a fantastic return especially considering he was carrying an injury for a lot of the time. Forwards occasionally have bad games as defenders try different things against them. Charlie had a couple of those games at the end of the year but even still he was still impacting on the game. If he has another year like the last I personally will be over the moon.

Hipwood was a solid target who finished with 35 goals. That was probably 10 or so less than I would have liked for this stage of his development but still solid. Most importantly for me was that he actually seemed to be taking a few contested marks at the end of the year. If he can continue with that he suddenly becomes a much more dangerous proposition and one who, at his height, will give teams a lot of trouble.

McStay crashed some packs but returning only 21 goals in 24 games was really poor. McStay has had a world of opportunities but has failed to take them. Personally I would rather give someone else a chance. He is just lucky that the KPF options in the ressies did not set the world on fire (I still do not understand why we cut Hammelmann so quickly). Fullarton is the one true KPF we have and he did not really take over games at the level below. He has a lot of talent but has not brought it into game situations. Skinner improved quite a bit over the year up forward but to me he is probably still more of a defender. Ballenden I like as a third tall / back up ruck type. Adams could potentially go forward to free up a spot for Payne. If I was coaching the team though I would probably go with a smaller more mobile forward line and bring in a tall running forward. Wooller had some very good games in that role especially in the first half of last year and I would consider deserving of a chance. At 194cm Wooller has decent height as well. McFayden is the other option for me and the one who might well have the most upside in the role. He is 190cm and a very strong player. If he can build his tank I think he could give teams a lot of trouble up forward and take turns in the middle as well. He is a prospect who interests me quite a lot.
 

briztoon

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Cameron had 57 goals last year. That is a fantastic return especially considering he was carrying an injury for a lot of the time. Forwards occasionally have bad games as defenders try different things against them. Charlie had a couple of those games at the end of the year but even still he was still impacting on the game. If he has another year like the last I personally will be over the moon.

Hipwood was a solid target who finished with 35 goals. That was probably 10 or so less than I would have liked for this stage of his development but still solid. Most importantly for me was that he actually seemed to be taking a few contested marks at the end of the year. If he can continue with that he suddenly becomes a much more dangerous proposition and one who, at his height, will give teams a lot of trouble.

McStay crashed some packs but returning only 21 goals in 24 games was really poor. McStay has had a world of opportunities but has failed to take them. Personally I would rather give someone else a chance. He is just lucky that the KPF options in the ressies did not set the world on fire (I still do not understand why we cut Hammelmann so quickly). Fullarton is the one true KPF we have and he did not really take over games at the level below. He has a lot of talent but has not brought it into game situations. Skinner improved quite a bit over the year up forward but to me he is probably still more of a defender. Ballenden I like as a third tall / back up ruck type. Adams could potentially go forward to free up a spot for Payne. If I was coaching the team though I would probably go with a smaller more mobile forward line and bring in a tall running forward. Wooller had some very good games in that role especially in the first half of last year and I would consider deserving of a chance. At 194cm Wooller has decent height as well. McFayden is the other option for me and the one who might well have the most upside in the role. He is 190cm and a very strong player. If he can build his tank I think he could give teams a lot of trouble up forward and take turns in the middle as well. He is a prospect who interests me quite a lot.
Would you still go with the two ruck set up?

What is your view of Hipwood, a true KPP or is he more like a very tall forward flanker?

Now I have no idea if we’ve banked a future first round pick for next year with a potential trade in the pipeline, unless it’s Brodie Grundy, I don’t know who we could trade in to improve our list, as I can’t see any of the top kpf’s moving next year.

From early discussions, there looks to be a few likely KPF’s towards the top end of next years draft. I genuinely hope at our first two picks we’re considering a KPF and a ruck.

Hoping our academy lads fill our need of another small forward and a couple of outside mids.
 

Tom14

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Would you still go with the two ruck set up?

What is your view of Hipwood, a true KPP or is he more like a very tall forward flanker?

Now I have no idea if we’ve banked a future first round pick for next year with a potential trade in the pipeline, unless it’s Brodie Grundy, I don’t know who we could trade in to improve our list, as I can’t see any of the top kpf’s moving next year.

From early discussions, there looks to be a few likely KPF’s towards the top end of next years draft. I genuinely hope at our first two picks we’re considering a KPF and a ruck.

Hoping our academy lads fill our need of another small forward and a couple of outside mids.
Daniher as a restricted free agent is very very unlikely but theoretically is possible. I assume he is still 99% likely to go to sydney or re-sign at essendon.
 

briztoon

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Daniher as a restricted free agent is very very unlikely but theoretically is possible. I assume he is still 99% likely to go to sydney or re-sign at essendon.
Yeah, even if Daniher comes back fine from injury, I’d still be adverse to signing him.

There’s just something about having mesh inserted into his muscle to help hold it together, that screams long term injury risk to me.
 

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