Opinion List Breakdown

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Have to agree with another poster.Possible troll post and this is from Mr Magic previously accused as a troll and still so by some:rolleyes:

I think this poll is possibly more troll than Santa, but I am not accusing you of being a troll, rather the content appears to negative to and unrealistic to be perceived as genuine and fair let alone positive.

For example, Conca has pace, he was recruited as he had pace, to say he lacks pace is just factually incorrect[/quote]
The post is factually incorrect Magic.
 

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zomeza_faith said:
I posted it three times cos i get 3 replies. 1 reply for each post, but you are kind of right. I am a troll and I am not. I am a troll because that reply i posted 3 times was trolling. But that list and detailed analysis i made about those 8 players weren't trolling. So it's up to you how you perceive it, you can disagree all you like, but if you think Jackson, Mcguane, Rance, Derycx, Big O etc will win us a flag, then you are sadly mistaken.
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but you quoted the same post 3 times not replyed 3 times. massive difference.
 
zomeza_faith said:
I posted it three times cos i get 3 replies. 1 reply for each post, but you are kind of right. I am a troll and I am not. I am a troll because that reply i posted 3 times was trolling. But that list and detailed analysis i made about those 8 players weren't trolling. So it's up to you how you perceive it, you can disagree all you like, but if you think Jackson, Mcguane, Rance, Derycx, Big O etc will win us a flag, then you are sadly mistaken.
Click to expand...

Detailed analysis? No, just too many words.

Nobody thinks Jackson, McGuane, Derickx etc. will win us a flag and nobody is claiming so, it's just that you're obvious lack of knowledge about most of these guys leaves you wide open to criticism. You said yourself at the bottom of your 'detailed analysis' that all opinions and discussions were welcome. This is mine; you are a troll who needs to brush up.
 
Zomeza, no premiership team is made up of perfect players.

Jackson, McGuane, Derickx and Stephenson probably won't last long. However, can you imagine what would happen if the two ruckmen weren't on our list and Maric got injured. We would have an 18 year old stick to rely on. You must understand, depth is depth, if you delist these players we rely on unproven players, which would be a step backwards. It's the same reason why McGuane is on the list. Remember in round 14 when we were so desperate for a KPF that we called Elton up? What did he do? He had a massive 4 possessions. McGuane came in after and kicked 15 goals in the remaining 9 games. He's not a best 22 player, but he's depth, and good depth too. As I mentioned earlier, getting rid of depth is a step backwards.

What we want is for these unproven players to be able to prove themselves. This is why we draft KPPs like Astbury and Rance and give them AFL experience so that they can become premiership material. Astbury has played 24 games in three seasons, largely due to injury concerns. How silly is it to write off a 21 year old KPP who has been plagued by injury. Should we delist Griffiths too? And Elton, because they haven't done anything yet? Astbury needs confidence, and confidence will be gained with a consecutive run of good games, just give the kid a chance. Astbury has beautiful skills for his size and is aggressive. The rest will come with confidence, because he has the ability.

The jury is still out with Matt Dea. He does have his flaws, but his positives outweigh them. Dea is a medium defender, so he plays on the medium forwards, not the tall guys. He has a very defensive mindset, and chooses the safe option mostly. He attacks the ball as hard as the rest of our backline and has a good shut-down game. He doesn't provide much offensively, but we have Houli, Newman and Batchelor to do that for us. Also, with his elite work-ethic, these things can always be worked on. I'll say it again, you CANNOT write players off when they haven't even played a whole season's worth of games. As I mentioned with Astbury, for a young player to have composure when he has hardly played senior games is a rare occurrence. Not everyone can be like Cotchin. You seem to think that everyone on our team is slow, which is incorrect. In fact, none of our players are 'slow' in speed. You can't really knock Dea on any physical aspects of the game.

On to your next big call, Rance. I agree with your points, he lacks composure, poise, and his disposal efficiency has cost us many times. However, no player is perfect and everyone has their flaws. You have failed to reward his positives. Alex gives everything he has at every contest, his defensive work is absolutely excellent and he has been a vital cog for our team for the past two years. I don't think you can immediately label him as a bad player after he was given a spanking from arguably one of the best forwards in the past decade. Every player has bad days. Riewoldt kicked 4.4 on Ted Richards (AA FB) and 5 goals on Rutten. Should they be delisted too? Personally, I think Grimes and Griffiths will overtake him, but he'll thrive when he doesn't need to take the number one defender, and you'll see it next year with Chaplin helping out. A good KPD is one of the rarest things in our game, and Rance is almost in the elite category in the whole competition. Also you mention that he lacks pace, I think you should retract that comment, because it simply isn't true. He has the ability to play on smalls and successfully too. Yeah, Rance may lack the body-on-body skill to go with Franklin and Pavlich, but they are absolute champions of the game. Rance towelled Buddy this year, so you really have to give credit where it's due. Rance hasn't even reached his physical peak yet. He has only played 66 games and KPP don't really start to play their best football until they are 25/26. Also to answer your question, I believe he is premiership material, however not as our first defender. The club knows this too, as they brought in Chaplin, and hopefully Astbury/Griffiths can fill Troy's shoes when he goes.

Conca, wow this one was probably the most surprising one. I think you really need to focus more on Reece when you start watching replays this off-season. Conca's decision-making in close was his finest attribute as a junior and the largest reason why he was taken so early in the draft. He hasn't been given the best of opportunities in the middle, so I can understand your lack of knowledge about this, but I assure you that is not a problem. Also, Conca doesn't have the skills like Cotch, but to compare them to Jackson's is a bit unfair. He does have a weird kicking style, but he more often than not hits targets. Anyways, the role that the club see's him playing doesn't really force him to have kicking as a strength. He is very quick and not only in leg-speed too. As I said, his decision making in close his by far his most prominent feature. He is just one of those incredibly smart players. Oh, and I'll refer you back to the free-kick moment that you so eloquently described. I'd like you to go back and watch it too. Saad is running with Conca, and traps his arm under his armpit. Conca tries to wrest his arm free and Saad flops for the umpire, causing a free-kick. I'm not lying, please watch it yourself. When the opposition flops for a free, you cannot blame the player himself.

Sometimes you just need to give players a crack before you can properly judge them. I am very disappointed with your opinion of Conca, because some of the things you have labelled him with are his biggest strengths. Similarly, all players get beaten. Rance was given a spanking by Pavlich this year, but he also gave a spanking to various players like Franklin and Hawkins. Finally, you can't just delist depth. This was evident in round 14 with Elton and proved with McGuane for the remainder of the year.
 
zomeza_faith said:
The post is factually incorrect Magic.
Click to expand...

My apologies, the Richmond list is perfect, there is nothing wrong with it at all, what on earth was i thinking? We couldn't beat gold coast, port at the mcg and we onl just beat GWS (and only because of connors who is gone), but what was i thinking? The list is fantastic. Luke mcguane is a gun and he is so smart and talented. Same with daniel jackson. Alex Rance also has great skills and never turns it over, just like Cale Hooker. It was a disgrace that Rance and Hooker did not make All Australian. Pav kicked 6 on Rance in the wet, but no Rance is good guys, he is good. Conca has great skills and is way better than that dud dyson heppell who we could have had, but rightfully didn't. Astbury has done a lot to earn his stripes, he gets 4 possesions every game so he is good guys. He deserves Richo's number and is way better than him. Our list is good, i was so wrong to bag it. None of our players have any flaws and they all rock. Tom Derycx is the next big thing and Big O is a gun.[/quote]

Ha ha , no one is saying our list is perfect.

However, to simply put players like Rance, whom we know is not infallable, into the trash bin category is massively imbalanced IMO.

The credibility issue you have is one , in terms of effort/care factor your are a rookie, two, you mention opposition players too much in your posts to search for some kind of basis I guess and three, to much of your argument lacks foundation.

For example Astbury has had issues but he is far from beyond hope, picking on Conca , mentioning Heppell honestly why stretch the issue, You can make louder posts in terms of effect by touching into the truth that raise the pulse of fans where their heart tells them something is real there rather than simply getting a little nasty eg. why even mention Big O who is only short term. Is Big O going to play for us in 4 years time??? try and find someone who thinks so!!!

The truth for RFC though, no matter how you spin it is, we have to still develop, we have a long way to go yet, but our future is as good as any of the Melbourne clubs at least and we have real potential to be a genuine threat in 4-5 years. This is almost undeniable, and if you are a troll, you have every right to be concerned!!!
 
zomeza_faith said:
Ha ha , no one is saying our list is perfect.

However, to simply put players like Rance, whom we know is not infallable, into the trash bin category is massively imbalanced IMO.

The credibility issue you have is one , in terms of effort/care factor your are a rookie, two, you mention opposition players too much in your posts to search for some kind of basis I guess and three, to much of your argument lacks foundation.

For example Astbury has had issues but he is far from beyond hope, picking on Conca , mentioning Heppell honestly why stretch the issue, You can make louder posts in terms of effect by touching into the truth that raise the pulse of fans where their heart tells them something is real there rather than simply getting a little nasty eg. why even mention Big O who is only short term. Is Big O going to play for us in 4 years time??? try and find someone who thinks so!!!

The truth for RFC though, no matter how you spin it is, we have to still develop, we have a long way to go yet, but our future is as good as any of the Melbourne clubs at least and we have real potential to be a genuine threat in 4-5 years. This is almost undeniable, and if you are a troll, you have every right to be concerned!!!
Click to expand...

I'm no troll, but I agree with your closing paragraph. You will notice in my analysis that I did not post anywhere that Richmond's future is not bright and that is because I don't think that. Quite the opposite actually, I am a proud tiger fan who thinks this club is close to a breakthrough. And my intention before was not to sound overly negative. We have around 44 players on our list. I mentioned 8, who I don't think will win us a flag. That means 36 of them can come in play some pretty decent footy. That to me indicates exceptional depth and the list is so much better than before. Is it perfect? No, which is why i mentioned the 8 players who I don't rate, but that by no means is a terrible list. In 4-5 years a premiership is certainly on the cards. The fact is fans will never completly feel the same way about every player. Everyone has an opinion and I respect people's opinions but that does not necessarily mean I agree with them. So to sum up, good footy club, bright future, differences of opinion, list will continue to improve. Go tigers 2013[/quote]

Okay lets go through the 8.

1.Jackson yeah fair enough but he plays it tough , is a good hard body and apparently has some leadership.

I would be surprised if he is on our list in 3 years time but I am not within a bulls roar of the inner circle of Melbourne let alone RFC.

2.McGuane, agree, problem for me is he hasn't developed his legs to get the core to compete with the big blokes IMO. Too late for him now I would be surprised to see him in 2014 but you never now he may pull something out. As with all the 8 and others up to them and their hearts and what they have.

3.Derrix, don't mind him like his marking, happy for him to have a shot. I think he can make it and prepared to give him time. Needs to do something in 2013 though really.

4. David A , shown a bit, been injuried I believe, like to see him improve his agility, lovely kick for goal, Worse case good swingman depth player. Too early to write him off. He may end up a backman like CHB after Chaplin yet.

5.Big O -short term like Miller. - N.A.

6. Matt Dea, I actually like and rate Dea. Good enough mark, nice height, reasonable kick, doesn't lack courage. I think he can be a premiership player. I think he can be agile, fast enough for small/mid forwards, yet to be convinced slow decision maker, don't buy the costs goals, fumbles argument.

7. Rance won't win a premiership from the backline but he can be a premiership player. Great contestable player, great agility for his size, good movement for his size. Rance can be good enough in certain defensive set ups against certain forwards IMO and not everyone can be a star. The thing with Rance is disposal can be improved and Rance's has. I think some of it is due to getting better balance as his body has matured. In time his decision making should improve as his role becomes more defined and certain setups and opposition styles/ players become more familiar in addition to our defensive team becoming more familiar with each other/strengths weaknesses etc..

8. Conca, I think can be a premiership player. Primarily inside though. Needs to improve his feel in tackles though amongst other things but this will come with experience and composure and confidence in his surrounds. Good enough to improve IMO and be valuable
 
zomeza_faith said:
Really well said, it is obvious you have done a lot of research and that you know quite a bit about the club. Thanks for initially posting this thread, I like discussing about Richmond. I don't agree with everything you have said, but I agree with a lot of it. Thanks also for not calling me a troll like the others. I respect your opinion and I will watch that Conca/Saad incident again. What I have learn from this is that the jury is still out on players like Astbury and Conca etc, and I should give them time before declaring that they should be delisted. So I will for now retract what I said about conca, astbury, Dea and Rance because of their age. I will admit that I have not been that imprssed by them, but then again players do take time and to say that they should go immediately, is a tad unfair. The other 4 (Jackson, Mcguane, Derycx and Stephenson) I stand by, but as i said in my post i understand why we drafted the big o, but if we can add to our ruck depth in the 2013 draft then Stephenson's services will no longer be required. Same goes for Derycx, we were right to keep him for now, but in 2 years time he will probably be delisted which is good. When Elton comes on mcguane will go and Jacko will be gone in about 2 years. Two things I would like to clarify though. Number one, due to my poor wording I gave the impression that I thought Our players were slow. That is not the case however. Although we do not have many players with explosive pace like a Chris Yarran, most of our players can run well. We just need one or two players who can break the lines, and when we get that we will be a really strong side. Secodnly, I want to apologise for any offence and unnecessary negativity. The truth is, I am a proud and passionate tiger supporter. While I named 8 players who I am not sure about, I did not say anything bad about the other 36 players on our list and that's because I have nothing bad to say about them. That means we have around 36 players who can come in and play decent football. I will declare it right now, we have pretty good depth as the numbers here do not lie. So while I believe the list still isn't perfect, we have come along way since Hardwick first took over, we will only imrpove and I think we can win a premiership as early as 2016. Thanks Martin_Riewoldt for your input into this thread, you do a good job as the admin. Go Tigers!
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'm glad that what I wrote was able to change your mind on certain issues. In my OP, I also expressed my concern over genuine line-breakers. It's good to hear that you agree.

I'm not an admin/moderator either, just a big Richmond fan who likes to share his opinion.

THE_GUN said:
And to make things worse you actually went back and counted :eek:
Click to expand...

I'm not that bored. Just copy, paste and word count. :D
 

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If we were stupid enough to delist Rance 17 other clubs would be lining up for his signature. Sometimes I wonder if people are watching the same game.
 
TheColeTrain said:
If we were stupid enough to delist Rance 17 other clubs would be lining up for his signature. Sometimes I wonder if people are watching the same game.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Up until Grimes went down many journalists had him as the AA full back. From there he battled manfully in a depleted and inexperienced backline.

And people in here writing off our kids, particularly those who have suffered major injuries is pathetic.
 
Martin_Riewoldt said:
It seems I wrote an 1100 word essay for nothing.

/sigh :p
Click to expand...


Nope not for nothing M_R. I'm sure I'm not the only one but ever since it came out we were after Troy C. I got very excited about the effect this would have on Optimus but particularly Trossman. After a few years as essentially KB. The prospect of having him face off against 2nd/3rd KPF is tantalising and the same for Grimsy. Then we can utilise them both for more attacking runs. For me Conca's ability in close has never been an issue but unless we focus on him it's very easy to miss his quick hands and thinking. Coupled with his disposal efficiency I have absolutely no doubt that he will be very,very good for the RFC. As for some of the comments on Dea I think it's just way too early in his career to make such calls. I also believe he thinks fairly quick on his feet too. But given he came to footy relatively late with his B ball background I believe he has massive potential, the little we've seen from him on coupled his unfortunate run with injuries early on. I would be very loath to dismiss him this soon because I think we'd (RFC) be sorry (but I'm not worried as I have heard the coaches really rate Matty). I think his skill set gives the coaches alot to work with. But I'm open to discussion from those more in the Know.
 
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