List Development Issues

[hawkeyehogan]

We have been pretty unlucky with the fwd line issue. Why we put so much faith in Waite has me mesmerised. The guy can never, and never will, be durable enough to take us fwd. Obviously we know the issue with Rowe, Mitchell has been injury prone, Casboult still a project player but injured. We have not been able to get any continuity in our fwd line.

We def need to do something in trade week, we need to find a player whose either proven or is ready to take that next step. We can't rely on the players who are always injured.

Why does Carlton not try getting Charlie Dixon from the Gold Coast, with a bit of developing he and maybe Luke Mitchell could fix the tall forward problem. I think the best bet would be to get someone like Travis Cloke or a Muture good Forward but they hard to recruit.

 

[Claypigeon]

Why does Carlton not try getting Charlie Dixon from the Gold Coast, with a bit of developing he and maybe Luke Mitchell could fix the tall forward problem. I think the best bet would be to get someone like Travis Cloke or a Muture good Forward but they hard to recruit.

Do not want. .. Would make a fine addition on the field but a 5year term and the dollars he is demanding are an extravagance I'd prefer Carlton not make. .. Would really squeeze our cap. .. Plus not sure I'm ready for another Cloke. ..

Would be willing to pick up Charlie Dixon though, as long as he came cheap. .. Would be a good project. ..

 

[hawkeyehogan]

Do not want. .. Would make a fine addition on the field but a 5year term and the dollars he is demanding are an extravagance I'd prefer Carlton not make. .. Would really squeeze our cap. .. Plus not sure I'm ready for another Cloke. ..

Would be willing to pick up Charlie Dixon though, as long as he came cheap. .. Would be a good project. ..

I agree with Cloke probably take the money more then anything. I think you should draft Dixon and a couple of talls for back up. I just would stay away with players that are built like a stick or have family history of soft tissue injuries.

 

[Hus83]

Obviously because the dozens of recruiters from AFL clubs are going to the wrong grounds. They need to start tapping into hus83's extensive recruiting experience.

So there's no teams out there playing with a big forward kicking bags of goals? You only find those in the AFL/VFL?
All you need to be able to do is take a contested mark one out in the goal square or clunk a mark 30out and kick through the sticks. It's not rocket science and there's dozens of people out there doing it week in/week out.

Unfortunately the sports science ruins any opportunity of these players being recruited because they don't pass the standing long jump/50m swim/beep test/bullshit bullshit bullshit. When a club returns to actually recruiting footballers rather than athletes we can get the game back to what it should be. Tony Lockett et al wouldn't even get a look in in this day and age. When a player can kick 8 goals, nobody cares if he can't run 30km a match or swarm the football like a manic hyena in the oppositions forward 50.

 

[Blue and Silver]

OK if we quickly break down our list into age categories (at end of this year), and those into player type we get:

30 plus:

Flankers:
Heath Scotland - 31

27-29:

Mids:
Chris Judd - 29
Andrew Carazzo - 29

Flankers:
Kade Simpson - 28
Nick Duigan - 28

KPP:
Jarrad Waite - 29
Bret Thornton - 29

24-26:

Mids:
Brock Mclean - 26
Marc Murphy - 25

Flankers:
Andrew Walker - 26
Jordan Russell - 26
Dennis Armfield - 26
Eddie Betts - 26
Simon White - 24
Andrew Collins - 24

KPP:
Michael Jamison - 26
Sam Rowe - 25
Paul Bower - 24

Rucks:
Robert Warnock - 25
Shaun Hampson - 24

21-23:

Mids:
David Ellard - 23
Bryce Gibbs - 23
Mitch Robinson - 23
Ed Curnow - 23
Kane Lucas - 21

Flankers:
Aaron Joseph - 23
Jeffery Garlett - 23
Jeremy Laidler - 23
Zach Tuohy - 23
Rhys O'Keefe - 22
Chris Yarran - 22
Marcus Davies - 21
Rohan Kerr - 21

KPP:
Lachlan Henderson - 23
Levi Casboult - 22

Rucks:
Matthew Kreuzer - 23

18-20

Mids:
Dylan Buckley - 19

Flankers:
Andrew McInnes - 20
Josh Bootsma - 19

KPP:
Luke Mitchell - 20
Pat McCarthy - 20
Matthew Watson - 20

 

[Blue and Silver]

Looking over that list in three years we could anticipate the following retirements:

Heath Scotland
Chris Judd
Andrew Carazzo
Nick Duigan
Jarrad Waite
Bret Thornton

I excluded Simpson because wiry outside runners often last longer.

Our side could look like:

B: Tuohy (26) Jamison (29) Bootsma (22)
HB: Laidler (26) Watson (23) Lucas (24)
C: Yarran (25) Mclean (29) Gibbs (26)
HF: Walker (29) Henderson (26) Collins (27)
F: Betts (29) Mitchell (23) Garlett (26)
R: Warnock (28) Murphy (28) Robinson (26)
I/C: Kreuzer (26) Buckley (22) Armfield (29) Ed Curnow (26)

 

[TheRedPill]

So there's no teams out there playing with a big forward kicking bags of goals? You only find those in the AFL/VFL?
All you need to be able to do is take a contested mark one out in the goal square or clunk a mark 30out and kick through the sticks. It's not rocket science and there's dozens of people out there doing it week in/week out.

Unfortunately the sports science ruins any opportunity of these players being recruited because they don't pass the standing long jump/50m swim/beep test/bullshit bullshit bullshit. When a club returns to actually recruiting footballers rather than athletes we can get the game back to what it should be. Tony Lockett et al wouldn't even get a look in in this day and age. When a player can kick 8 goals, nobody cares if he can't run 30km a match or swarm the football like a manic hyena in the oppositions forward 50.

If you think that's "all you need to be able to do" then you haven't watched a game of AFL in the last 3-5 years, possibly ever. The days of the immobile & unathletic key forward are gone - they have to be able to move around the ground and apply pressure when you don't have the ball or else the whole system falls apart. The 'press' is reliant on a full team effort, and if you look at the best KPFs they are all exceptional athletes - eg Cloke, Franklin, Riewoldt(s), Tippett, Walker, etc etc. Even Hawkins is developing that side of his game.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

The reason we don't have high draft pick key position players is that none represented value for pick at the time we entered the draft, or a much higher rated player was still available, or the talls we did have were not consistently injured at that stage or especially earlier on, we had multiple holes to fill just to be competitive and taller players take longer.

It wasn't the perfect plan, wasn't perfect timing, but then again we didn't exactly have another 5 years of finishing in the cellar whilst choosing talls first, giving them time to develop before concentrating on our midfield.

That might all be fine when you are playing a playstation management game, but in the real world, supporters demand results (including the hindsight supporters here) and won't tolerate finishing last while you grow a list that they can't see until the player actually makes good, and players do not want to waste half of their careers losing so are more prone to approaches from other teams.

Realistically, if we went out and got a couple of talls with early picks 5 years ago, and then got midfielders a couple of years ago, these guys would only just be showing some form. How many times over that 5 years would each and every one of those players be called duds and our recruiters called into question, whilst they got bashed from pillar to post on the field? I'm not seeing a lot of patient supporters on our board. All some people can see is the week by week result and how bad a loss makes them feel.

 

[Big Red is back]

The reason we don't have high draft pick key position players is that none represented value for pick at the time we entered the draft, or a much higher rated player was still available, or the talls we did have were not consistently injured at that stage or especially earlier on, we had multiple holes to fill just to be competitive and taller players take longer.

It wasn't the perfect plan, wasn't perfect timing, but then again we didn't exactly have another 5 years of finishing in the cellar whilst choosing talls first, giving them time to develop before concentrating on our midfield.

That might all be fine when you are playing a playstation management game, but in the real world, supporters demand results (including the hindsight supporters here) and won't tolerate finishing last while you grow a list that they can't see until the player actually makes good, and players do not want to waste half of their careers losing so are more prone to approaches from other teams.

Realistically, if we went out and got a couple of talls with early picks 5 years ago, and then got midfielders a couple of years ago, these guys would only just be showing some form. How many times over that 5 years would each and every one of those players be called duds and our recruiters called into question, whilst they got bashed from pillar to post on the field? I'm not seeing a lot of patient supporters on our board. All some people can see is the week by week result and how bad a loss makes them feel.

Look if we had our time again we would of given the bloody eagles pick 1 and Pick3 for Judd and Armfield and kept Kennedy and we would be sweet. Clearly the MC made a call they thought Kruz would be better than Kennedy and atm looks a huge error.

The problem is Kruz due to injury and or lack of ability is not firing a shot as a fwd. I am sure given his size when drafted they thought he would be a very fine ruckman fwd in the end he is struggling as a ruckman and barely serviceable as a tall fwd.

The game against port in his first or second year when he kicked 3 in a quarter showed his potential, however he has lost mobility since then and his kicking for goal is not what it used to be.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Look if we had our time again we would of given the bloody eagles pick 1 and Pick3 for Judd and Armfield and kept Kennedy and we would be sweet. Clearly the MC made a call they thought Kruz would be better than Kennedy and atm looks a huge error.

The problem is Kruz due to injury and or lack of ability is not firing a shot as a fwd. I am sure given his size when drafted they thought he would be a very fine ruckman fwd in the end he is struggling as a ruckman and barely serviceable as a tall fwd.

The game against port in his first or second year when he kicked 3 in a quarter showed his potential, however he has lost mobility since then and his kicking for goal is not what it used to be.

Geez, that is an incredibly premature call. Kreuzer has been playing for 4 and a half years and 1 and a half of those were lost to injury. 3 years for a ruckman is not a long time to reach your potential.

Kennedy was taken 2 years before Kreuzer and has shown very good form for ..... oh 2 years. Go figure huh?

What frustrates me more is that supporters make these calls on our players, bring it up every time they have a quiet game, write them off, continually list their deficiencies, will spend 500 posts on the topic, drawing no end of criticism and causing no end of infighting .... but if the player does turn out to be a good player, worthy of his draft pick, the poster will put out one post saying he was not convinced early, but happy to have been proven wrong. After all that, I made a mistake, let's move on.

You have seen Kreuzer's whole career pan out now and have chosen to announce it early. You've really left yourself nowhere to go.

 

[Claypigeon]

Look if we had our time again we would of given the bloody eagles pick 1 and Pick3 for Judd and Armfield and kept Kennedy and we would be sweet. Clearly the MC made a call they thought Kruz would be better than Kennedy and atm looks a huge error.

The problem is Kruz due to injury and or lack of ability is not firing a shot as a fwd. I am sure given his size when drafted they thought he would be a very fine ruckman fwd in the end he is struggling as a ruckman and barely serviceable as a tall fwd.

The game against port in his first or second year when he kicked 3 in a quarter showed his potential, however he has lost mobility since then and his kicking for goal is not what it used to be.

I think you are been a tad harsh on Kreuzer. .. however no one could predict he'd do a knee and take a while to get back to his consistent best. .. Remember how good he looked before the knee and even this year early on with his mobility and pressure acts. .. and who is to say Kennedy would have flourished without the move, it's all speculation. ..

 

[Coona Blues]

I still subscribe that we have the list to seriously compete for the flag overe the next 3 years. Looking to our list in 3 years is defeatist. I do agree that our players too often do not develop/progress as well as their counterparts at other clubs. Confidence, commitment and understanding their roles is the biggest key. Of late many have been chasing their tails on the back of whims from the Match Committee. There has been some genuine progress in the last couple of weeks, unfortunately Ratts and co had to see it as a last resort to get there. McLean, Watson, Collins, Tuohy off the last line...all good. The Lucas case and the decline of Garlett are indicative of the problem. Our coaching staff seems to think that requesting commitment is all it takes. Reliance in their mates, commitment to their mates and the jumper, confidence in the bloke beside them, all need to be ingrained in their psyche. When we get that, the inaccuracy in front of goal, the skill errors etc will be all but gone, more marks will be held etc, etc.
We have a top 8, maybe 4 side. Development has been slow, but much of it can be fast tracked with an attitude tweak, and a few role adjustments.

 

[Big Red is back]

Geez, that is an incredibly premature call. Kreuzer has been playing for 4 and a half years and 1 and a half of those were lost to injury. 3 years for a ruckman is not a long time to reach your potential.

Kennedy was taken 2 years before Kreuzer and has shown very good form for ..... oh 2 years. Go figure huh?

What frustrates me more is that supporters make these calls on our players, bring it up every time they have a quiet game, write them off, continually list their deficiencies, will spend 500 posts on the topic, drawing no end of criticism and causing no end of infighting .... but if the player does turn out to be a good player, worthy of his draft pick, the poster will put out one post saying he was not convinced early, but happy to have been proven wrong. After all that, I made a mistake, let's move on.

You have seen Kreuzer's whole career pan out now and have chosen to announce it early. You've really left yourself nowhere to go.

Fair call but would carlton trade Kruz for Kennedy now I bet your bottom dollar they would.

Look as said in his defense he is clearly playing injured so it is hard to judge. I have just found his form to by really poor, if and when we have a full list I suspect he or Hampson would be dropped on current form.

 

[jj1978]

Fair call but would carlton trade Kruz for Kennedy now I bet your bottom dollar they would.

Look as said in his defense he is clearly playing injured so it is hard to judge. I have just found his form to by really poor, if and when we have a full list I suspect he or Hampson would be dropped on current form.

If the club could have changed anything it would of been pick 3 and Fevola to the Eagles... this is something I wish we would've of done... but the clubs crystal ball didn't work during that trade week.

 

[Salaryman]

WCE weren't remotely interested in Fev. I think BRIB has finally earnt a rest on my ignore list with some absurd (and inaccurate) hindsighting.

 

[TheRedPill]

Fair call but would carlton trade Kruz for Kennedy now I bet your bottom dollar they would.

Look as said in his defense he is clearly playing injured so it is hard to judge. I have just found his form to by really poor, if and when we have a full list I suspect he or Hampson would be dropped on current form.

Nonsensical... what is your point? Are you trying to criticise someone here? Who?

Kreuzer's young and has had prolonged injury troubles leading up to this year - what do you expect? We have to be realistic and patient. Just as one great game doesn't make a player great, one poor game doesn't make a player poor. Carlton supporters, particularly those that struggle to write coherently but then manage to post so frequently, are so hot and cold. It takes one bad patch of form and suddenly we're the worst side in the competition.

 

[Azul]

Naturally the club will pick a raw teenager as a KPP but should we trade our 3rd round pick on someone like the following not getting a game at their respective clubs?

• Gault - Collingwood 19, 198cm pick 65 2011 - Magpies have a number of talls including Ceglar and Witts
• Kennedy - NM 20, 192cm pick 41 2009 - Knee reconstruction
• Retzlaff - BL 20, 195cm pick 84 2009, 11 games - QLD boy
• Post - Richmond 22, 195cm pick 26 2008, 23 games

Post is probably gone at the Tiges but is the right size if we could de-Richmond him. Gault looked okay on the VFL telly.
Anyway, just saying other clubs have put 1-4 years development into these kids and are thus ahead of a 17 yo in terms of being ready to play.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Fair call but would carlton trade Kruz for Kennedy now I bet your bottom dollar they would.

Maybe they would, but not necessarily because they think Kennedy will be better than Kreuzer. More likely because we have 3 ruckmen all worthy of playing in the best 22 but no CHF. As others have pointed out, this is the worst kind of hindsighting when being used to bag the club or Kreuzer. You talk about others not knowing about football, but you seem incapable of taking into account a string of circumstances in order to form a balanced opinion.

Look as said in his defense he is clearly playing injured so it is hard to judge. I have just found his form to by really poor, if and when we have a full list I suspect he or Hampson would be dropped on current form.

I don't find his form poor. Statistically it might look poor. He might not be taking giant pack marks as we bomb it in long but I question whether that is the intention anyway. I'm fairly certain that we are praying that the ball hits the ground 90% of the time. His endeavour is still there and I have lost count of the amount of times Kreuzer pressure acts and a timely hand in the way of an opposition disposal have affected the play. He seems to get no credit for his work without the ball.

 

[Silvagnis]

I'm sure Hus83 would have spotted these two playing in the SANFL and VFL...

Carlton's Twitter

"Injuries to the taller blokes have hurt us more than the loss of our mids. We thought blokes like Casboult and Rowe would play this year."

Carlton's Twitter

 

[Azul]

We needed a ruckman in 2007.

Hampson and Jacobs were just prospects, we didn't have Warnock until the year after.

We still had Fev, Hartlett, Lance and Fisher at that stage - nice hindsight though.

 

[Jeremias]

Naturally the club will pick a raw teenager as a KPP but should we trade our 3rd round pick on someone like the following not getting a game at their respective clubs?

• Gault - Collingwood 19, 198cm pick 65 2011 - Magpies have a number of talls including Ceglar and Witts
• Kennedy - NM 20, 192cm pick 41 2009 - Knee reconstruction
• Retzlaff - BL 20, 195cm pick 84 2009, 11 games - QLD boy
• Post - Richmond 22, 195cm pick 26 2008, 23 games

Post is probably gone at the Tiges but is the right size if we could de-Richmond him. Gault looked okay on the VFL telly.

Anyway, just saying other clubs have put 1-4 years development into these kids and are thus ahead of a 17 yo in terms of being ready to play.

Why would we bother?

That list is nothing to get excited about - in fact it wouldn't surprise me if at least 2 of them found themselves on the scrap heap come the end of the year.

If we gave up a pick for any of them I'd be disappointed. None of them have shown anything of substance at AFL level so we're better off keeping that 3rd round pick and trying our luck in what is supposed to be a bumper draft. Those you've named are not worth anywhere near a 3rd round pick.

Another key forward prospect would be nice to have on the list, no doubt. But let's not get all hysterical and make any knee-jerk trades just for the sake of it. None of the four players you have named would add anything to our senior side next season.

I want Carlton to be active during trade week and there are a number of players I'm hoping we pursue quite strongly, but there's no point trading just because we can.

 

[Big Red is back]

If the club could have changed anything it would of been pick 3 and Fevola to the Eagles... this is something I wish we would've of done... but the clubs crystal ball didn't work during that trade week.

Well said

 

[Big Red is back]

I'm sure Hus83 would have spotted these two playing in the SANFL and VFL...

Carlton's Twitter

Carlton's Twitter

Pinning out hopes to those to come on. From the glimpses I saw of rowe he has going to really battle as for casbolt he is at best an okay vfl fwd. Suspect we are clutching at straws.

If watched preseason pretty clear ratten thought hammer was going to be the full fwd and thornton and Waite the other taller Fwds, with a dash of kruz if warnock played.

 

[Hus83]

If you think that's "all you need to be able to do" then you haven't watched a game of AFL in the last 3-5 years, possibly ever. The days of the immobile & unathletic key forward are gone - they have to be able to move around the ground and apply pressure when you don't have the ball or else the whole system falls apart. The 'press' is reliant on a full team effort, and if you look at the best KPFs they are all exceptional athletes - eg Cloke, Franklin, Riewoldt(s), Tippett, Walker, etc etc. Even Hawkins is developing that side of his game.

When you're playing a stupid press centered about skilless players following the football like an under 8's game of soccer.
If you actually had a footballer who can stand in the forward 50 and beat players 2 v 1, then his opponent is made accountable. It's just assumed there is only one way to play football these days.
Unfortunately you cant train an athlete to be a footballer, but you can train a footballer to be an athlete.