List management 101 (69?)

[The Nostradamus]

We were always peddling the notion that we couldn't afford to bottom out. Doing what we did, we were going to bottom out eventually.

And here we are.

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I guess it bought them time to get ourselves set up well off field, remove debt etc

But I think we could’ve afforded to bottom out back then too despite the hysteria and the clubs finances

Bottom line is brad Scott is not the long term coach he says he is, he’s short term success only Ala Ross Lyon except not as good a coach and the best he could do was prelims compared to Ross’s grand finals

2017 we started on a path to bottom out then we deviated in 2018 and went middle of the road which led to topping up in 2019 and the eventual sacking of brad

The good news is since 2020 we’ve been on the bottom out path and really this should be the final year of it

 

[shintemaster]

GWS always have top end picks but they have nailed some doozies with their later picks.
Like Buckley ,Idun,Riccardi , Daniels ,Brown (cat B??) and traded in hogan/bedford.

Our biggest issue is all those second rounders we’ve picked that are no longer around - even a couple of them would change our dynamic

It helps when you have extra chances at the pointy end that other teams don't get as well as an open line of credit from head office...

 

[Zondor]

Culling the list in 2020 and 2021.

Ford, Goater, Curtis, Bergman, getting Wardlaw and Goad for JHF while securing Sheezel (I know you think otherwise but we were over a barrel then, not in any position of strength.) KDawson, Hansen jr, Brayden George when we didn't have a second rounder. (CCJ was an error but he was able to compensate for his error.) Phillips and Powell, not picking Logan McDonald or Elijah Hollands.

Stephenson, Corr, Logue, the entire 2023 draft and trade season.

It has been admitted by various people at the club we cut too deep. Todd Viney is on record saying so. That ain’t a tick. Even internally it ain’t a tick. :stern look

Ford, Goater and Curtis look like decent pick ups. Bergman will need to grab his chance this season. :stern look

We weren’t over a barrel when it came to the JHF trade. JHF was actually under contract with us. What happened there is that Rawling was incapable of using the actual leverage we had to maximise that deal for us. JHF is a Gun! Bottom Line. :stern look

George hasn’t played a game. RHJ is hardly a tick. Dawson has some qualities to like about him. :stern look

CCJ was an error. I can’t see how Rawling compensated for that error. :stern look

Phillips and Powell? C’mon Ferbs. We should Serong on our list now. Not Powell. Phillips couldn’t even make the Round 1 side! :stern look

And finally Corr? LOL! 5 years for a serviceable defender who is really only capable of playing 3rd tall. I posted my dismay at this recruited on BF at the time and really nothing much that Corr has done has changed my mind. :stern look

You know what Rawling got right? Sheezel. You and I would’ve got that one right. :stern look

 

[Zondor]

Hrovat!

Harvey would’ve played better football for us in that time The Rat replaced him. *en Scotts! :stern look

 

[ferball]

It has been admitted by various people at the club we cut too deep. Todd Viney is on record saying so. That ain’t a tick. Even internally it ain’t a tick. :stern look

He's wrong about that. Keeping those players wouldn't have helped us or improved our performance over the next year or two.

We weren’t over a barrel when it came to the JHF trade. JHF was actually under contract with us. What happened there is that Rawling was incapable of using the actual leverage we had to maximise that deal for us. JHF is a Gun! Bottom Line. :stern look

We had to get rid of him. Like a tumour you have to cut out. His talent is there but he was acting in a manner that would have undermined the club if we kept him and that was our only leverage - keeping him. The contract means nothing in that position. What would you have done?

George hasn’t played a game. RHJ is hardly a tick. Dawson has some qualities to like about him. :stern look

He has a great moustache. RHJ is better than any other MSD pick we have had bar Dawson.

CCJ was an error. I can’t see how Rawling compensated for that error. :stern look

He had a second round pick two picks later (used on B George) and a year later we have all of our picks back. We still have CCJ but that's really the only loss in that trade. Unfortunately we are stuck with him for now.

Phillips and Powell? C’mon Ferbs. We should Serong on our list now. Not Powell. Phillips couldn’t even make the Round 1 side! :stern look

Phillips is better than anyone else from the first round in that draft. The best footy we played last year was with him in the side. Personally I'd have picked Pickett over Serong anyway.

And finally Corr? LOL! 5 years for a serviceable defender who is really only capable of playing 3rd tall. I posted my dismay at this recruited on BF at the time and really nothing much that Corr has done has changed my mind. :stern look

He was a FA, cost nothing and is actually a much better defender than people give him credit for. Rawlings isn't responsible for the year he missed after he got here.

You know what Rawling got right? Sheezel. You and I would’ve got that one right. :stern look

And the other things.

Also - he kept Tristan Xerri.

 

[ferball]

Harvey would’ve played better football for us in that time The Rat replaced him. *en Scotts! :stern look

Yeah true ... and we would have missed LDU and drafted Stephenson cos Harvey would have been the difference between winning and losing some of the five games we lost by under a goal that year. We have Sleevo anyway and honestly thank * we didn't waste a high draft pick on him. He's a good player sure but we're better off having drafted LDU.

 

[shinboner magic]

The other issue we had was redrafting /trading in proven hacks - like Menadue , Howe , Turner , atu ect instead of drafting new blood that could of been anything

 

[Zondor]

Yeah true ... and we would have missed LDU and drafted Stephenson cos Harvey would have been the difference between winning and losing some of the five games we lost by under a goal that year. We have Sleevo anyway and honestly thank * we didn't waste a high draft pick on him. He's a good player sure but we're better off having drafted LDU.

What? How do you know who the * we would’ve drafted had Harvey remained on the list? :stern look

 

[Zondor]

He's wrong about that. Keeping those players wouldn't have helped us or improved our performance over the next year or two.

It aint just Viney Ferball. :stern look

We had to get rid of him. Like a tumour you have to cut out. His talent is there but he was acting in a manner that would have undermined the club if we kept him and that was our only leverage - keeping him. The contract means nothing in that position. What would you have done?

I would've been prepared to keep him. I would've made it quite clear to Port that we needed more. But Mr Soft utensil was more interested in everybody coming out as winners in that trade. The true winners in that trade were Port. :stern look

He has a great moustache. RHJ is better than any other MSD pick we have had bar Dawson.

This is scraping the bottom of the barrel stuff. :stern look

He had a second round pick two picks later (used on B George) and a year later we have all of our picks back. We still have CCJ but that's really the only loss in that trade. Unfortunately we are stuck with him for now.

Why did we have our picks back. Because we were that bad we were compensated. We have become this bad because a certain banana thinks he knows what he is doing but if truth be told he does not! :stern look

Phillips is better than anyone else from the first round in that draft. The best footy we played last year was with him in the side. Personally I'd have picked Pickett over Serong anyway.

With the benefit of hindsight your attitude may change regarding Phillips. :stern look

He was a FA, cost nothing and is actually a much better defender than people give him credit for. Rawlings isn't responsible for the year he missed after he got here.

Ah the old he cost us nothing argument. Cost us money. Cost us a list spot. Oh he has cost us. :stern look

And the other things.

Also - he kept Tristan Xerri.

Great. He didn't trade a guy that was already on our list and was there before he came to the club. The a Maestro! How does he do it. Con supposedly educated people like yourself. :stern look

 

[ferball]

What? How do you know who the * we would’ve drafted had Harvey remained on the list? :stern look

I have magic powers.

Harvey averaged over a goal a game over his career and we lost 5 games by under a goal. So the law of averages says we would have won those five games with Boomer playing. (If we didn't it wouldn't have been worth keeping him would it.) We could have finished 11th and drafted Lachie O'brien or Aiden Bonar for all I know.

The point is we wouldn't have LDU.

We got very lucky there even if it didn't seem that way at the time.

 

[Liam Boy]

I would've been prepared to keep him. I would've made it quite clear to Port that we needed more. But Mr Soft utensil was more interested in everybody coming out as winners in that trade. The true winners in that trade were Port. :stern look

So it's not even really about us doing well out of the trade, which we did, it's just about hurting Port? Ok, get them to agree to a deal that hurts them dumbass. That's how trades get done obviously

 

[Epictetus]

If JHF was such a "cancer", it's was a significant drafting error rather than a trading compensation issue.

 

[scottywiper]

So it's not even really about us doing well out of the trade, which we did, it's just about hurting Port? Ok, get them to agree to a deal that hurts them dumbass. That's how trades get done obviously

I think what he is saying is Port was as committed a buyer as you'd get. They promised JHF and his family the world, and had been into him from the get go.
We got a first round pick and what became a pretty late first round pick. Hardly a king's ransom for a player rated so highly. We were offered more than that before we drafted him, but the family played us like fiddles.
It's true that keeping him might have been problematic. But Port wanted him. A lot. And we could/should have taken a tougher line, I would suggest we might have demanded a player as well.
I almost guarantee Port would have caved give the commitment they made to him. And yes, Port were a big winner in that trade period and JHF was part of that.

 

[ferball]

It aint just Viney Ferball. :stern look

Well they're wrong. Who would you have kept? We won our first two games and then won one more that year. That side was cooked. Who would you not cut and how would that have helped us?

I would've been prepared to keep him. I would've made it quite clear to Port that we needed more. But Mr Soft utensil was more interested in everybody coming out as winners in that trade. The true winners in that trade were Port. :stern look

Odds are you would have got less than that a year later when he went to Port for their first rounder and * all else.

This is scraping the bottom of the barrel stuff. :stern look

At this point its a stupid argument. Dawson looks good and time will tell about the other two. Not many sides have two good players come from the MSD tho.

Why did we have our picks back. Because we were that bad we were compensated. We have become this bad because a certain banana thinks he knows what he is doing but if truth be told he does not! :stern look

He was a poor footy department boss (aside from the delistings) but his list management has been fine. If you took Rawlings away and everything else was the same we'd still be in a world of s**t. We'd be in worse s**t if you'd kept JHF and he left for pick 16.

With the benefit of hindsight your attitude may change regarding Phillips. :stern look

True, but so may yours.

Ah the old he cost us nothing argument. Cost us money. Cost us a list spot. Oh he has cost us. :stern look

LOL he's costing you your sanity obviously.

Great. He didn't trade a guy that was already on our list and was there before he came to the club. The a Maestro! How does he do it. Con supposedly educated people like yourself. :stern look

Xerri wanted out and Brady didn't let him go without a pick similar to what we gave up for Lurch. So he stayed and will be our greatest ruckman since .... Goldstein.

 

[ferball]

Also Zondor wrt to JHF. It was clear by the time the season end that JHF was disrespecting the club, the coaching staff and his own private parts so do you take into account that keeping him may have caused other players to leave who we'd rather keep?

 

[ferball]

If JHF was such a "cancer", it's was a significant drafting error rather than a trading compensation issue.

That's probably a fair point. But how do you think all of us would have reacted if we had traded pick one for 2 first rounders and a kick up the arse?

 

[fusion]

He's wrong about that. Keeping those players wouldn't have helped us or improved our performance over the next year or two.



We had to get rid of him. Like a tumour you have to cut out. His talent is there but he was acting in a manner that would have undermined the club if we kept him and that was our only leverage - keeping him. The contract means nothing in that position. What would you have done?

He only wanted to get to one club. Thought we could have got more, or threatened to keep him, and force him into the PSD the following year, and then redraft him before Port picks him up.

We gave up JHF (pick #1), another pick #1 and a 3rd round pick to get
#2, #3 and ports future first round, which ended up being #20 (Taylor Goad), plus some "loose change" picks that we traded out (initially 40, 43).
40 and 43 then became #63 plus a 2023 third round pick from the Dogs and 2023 4th round pick from Hawthorn.
Only 59 players were selected in the 2022 draft, so pick #63 could have been #163 and it wouldn't have mattered. I think we ended up with Cooper Harvey as a FS using the last pick we had in 2022. The picks we had in 2023 we traded on, and it's hard to see where they were used.

We should have gotten 3 picks inside the top 10 for giving up two #1 picks and a 3rd rounder for a player under contract.

I can't think of a trade we "won". See Polec, CCJ, JHF, Ben Brown etc. Even breaking even would have been nice.
EDIT - Keeping Xerri when he wanted to leave is the only time I can recall us making a stance.

 

[Caracas]

It didn't feel familiar to me.

We had a clear, identifiable game plan based around skill (unlike the last 5 coaches) and we brought it up to the premiership fancy as the youngest team in the comp.

Yes we're still 2-3 years off being proper contenders but you feel like there's a foundation of young talent on the field and a critical mass of the right people off the field now.

I think we need to put the onus on the people we have now to drive us forward rather than a tear the place down approach. Not saying changes can't be made.

Rawlings for mine came to us in a very dire state and like the tagger he was he put his hand up for any role required and said yes to whatever the club needed. Did he get it all right? Hell no. But he deserves some slack given the chaotic environment and is now in a more stable system doing what he's best at so will be judged more harshly for decisions made now than when he came to us.

Personally I'm going to enjoy the ride this year! Even if it's 6-8 wins it's going to be good to watch as we will shock a few good teams on occasion no question.

Unfortunately, unless we sort out, to some degree, our glaring deficiencies, I don’t see where those 6-8 victories are coming from. The fact is, if we don’t beat Freo, we’re in real strife. Our next opportunity is not until R6 against Hawthorn. They easily had our measure last year on two occasions.

 

[ChairmanZia]

I guess it bought them time to get ourselves set up well off field, remove debt etc

But I think we could’ve afforded to bottom out back then too despite the hysteria and the clubs finances

Bottom line is brad Scott is not the long term coach he says he is, he’s short term success only Ala Ross Lyon except not as good a coach and the best he could do was prelims compared to Ross’s grand finals

2017 we started on a path to bottom out then we deviated in 2018 and went middle of the road which led to topping up in 2019 and the eventual sacking of brad

The good news is since 2020 we’ve been on the bottom out path and really this should be the final year of it

The golden path

 

[Zondor]

So it's not even really about us doing well out of the trade, which we did, it's just about hurting Port? Ok, get them to agree to a deal that hurts them dumbass. That's how trades get done obviously

Dumbass? I suggest you have a look in the mirror to see what one looks like. We did not maximise what we should've got for JHF. We did not negotiate hard enough. We should've got more. Can you comprehend that? In essence what Port got for what was pick 9 in the 2022 draft and pick 20 in the 2023 draft was JHF and Willie Rioli. Forget about the periphery pick swaps and the supposed points that they amounted to. It means nothing. They did well. Meanwhile alls we really ended up as "extra" for JHF was Goad. That's it. Sure Wardlaw can play but will he be as good as JHF. The sands of time will give us that answer. :stern look

 

[Zondor]

Well they're wrong. Who would you have kept? We won our first two games and then won one more that year. That side was cooked. Who would you not cut and how would that have helped us?

They aren't. It is why we have had to back peddle somewhat. Pick up the likes of Greenwood and Shiels. It is why you've watched the worst North Melbourne team in your lifetime over the last few years. Sure we needed to move on some players at the end of 2020 but we cut too deep. Too deep! Wood and Williams should've been kept. They both were around that 26 year old age mark at the time. I would've kept Pittard for one more year and one of Majak or Durdin at the time as key defensive back up. Sure only Wood is still playing now but cutting too deep is in part why we have been so bad since that cull. And don't forget that bright spark brought in the likes of Young and Atu as replacements. That worked well. Plus and I say this with the benefit of hindsight, Goldstien should've been traded out. He had the most currency on our list. Instead it was Higgins and Brown and I reckon we got unders for Brown. :stern look

Odds are you would have got less than that a year later when he went to Port for their first rounder and * all else.

Maybe, but to do the best deal you have to be prepared to walk away from that deal. Ask anybody that deals. We blinked first. :stern look

At this point its a stupid argument. Dawson looks good and time will tell about the other two. Not many sides have two good players come from the MSD tho.

Like I said before you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. If you want to talk about Mid Season Drafts well Edward was a Rawling balls up. Cost us Newcombe. :stern look

RHJ has a long way to go. Dawson may be a player but he only played one game last year. And that was even after Logue went down. So do you understand why I think you are clutching at straws here ye? :stern look

He was a poor footy department boss (aside from the delistings) but his list management has been fine. If you took Rawlings away and everything else was the same we'd still be in a world of s**t. We'd be in worse s**t if you'd kept JHF and he left for pick 16.

No small forward on the list. Not one! I was kind enough to suggest Harvey and RHJ but even then others have rightly pointed out they aren't really small forwards. The guy is a Drongo. Not a list manager. And as for key backs please! Look at the list. Look at the mad scramble at the end of last year once McKay was out the door. Picking up a 25 year that had never played AFL Football at the top level and another guy who had only played one game. Where was the forward planning? :stern look

Also there are too many mid forwards picked up over his tenure. We already had Zurhaar. Bring in Stephenson. Draft Ford and Curtis. Had Taylor already on the list. Pick up George. Why so many of a similar types? Same with the midfield. Small mids. Already had Simpkin. Pick up Phillps and Lazarro. Pick up Wardlaw. He has no concept of Ying and Yang. He loves a type. I repeat he is a Drongo. Bottom Line. :stern look

True, but so may yours.

Hopefully Phillips does make it. But my wishes wont distort what is reality. He is small. One paced. Struggles to cover the ground in a modern game of run. Yes he is nice and neat inside but will that make him an AFL Quality Footballer? He would have to somehow turn into Sam Mitchell to become that. An accumulator that reads the play. That gets in the right position all of the time. Runs all day. Is he capable of becoming that? I'm not so sure. :stern look

LOL he's costing you your sanity obviously.

Plus a list spot. Plus the hard earned money that you and I pump into the club. The bottom line is he is not a Rawling success. :stern look

Xerri wanted out and Brady didn't let him go without a pick similar to what we gave up for Lurch. So he stayed and will be our greatest ruckman since .... Goldstein.

In summary you haven't given us many positives. Keeping Xerri. Hooray! Picking up Sheezel Hooray!. But if truth be told he has ballsed up a hell of a lot more than made the right choices. This thread is evidence of that. It is a cold hard reality that you and those of you who defend him will slowly realise with time. :stern look

 

[bennymate]

The KPD drafts are an absolute catastrophe.

Durdin, Neilson, EVW, Declan ******* Watson, Cameron Delaney, Luke Delaney….

Vomit

EVW was the only good player out of those, taken by injury though, of course.

 

[dus]

We’ve botched it pretty bad time after time, on many levels. Developing players has been as bad as our drafting.

Full careers out of JWS, Harper, Majak, Jacobs, Black, Garner just name a few, would have helped.

It’s been a s**t show.

 

[Ashley B]

Trying to keep it positive ,but some posters reminiscing about some of our drafting in bygone yrs has me feeling a little ill. I will leave it on this , "good drafting takes time"lol

 

[Ashley B]

We’ve botched it pretty bad time after time, on many levels. Developing players has been as bad as our drafting.

Full careers out of JWS, Harper, Majak, Jacobs, Black, Garner just name a few, would have helped.

It’s been a s**t show.

Not sure if its bad management or just bad luck, there is probably a good argument for either .