List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

Remove this Banner Ad

Davo-27

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 9, 2006
6,033
8,640
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Box Hill Hawks
i wanted to write up my thoughts on our list as it stands and noticed there were no other list management threads for this year

where we are at:

Our Starting Squad imo. (25 players)
Shaun Burgoyne - nearly at the 400 game milestone, has been more of a comforting presence as a respected veteran of AFL footy rather than performing at high levels this year.
Ben McEvoy - was made captain at the start of the season, has not been at his best, but is our only ruck of value atm, he always gives it his all, gotta respect him for that
Liam Shiels - not his best year, has been relieved of the tagging duties mostly in the last couple of years, he is a big bodied mid who tries his best
Luke Breust - in pre-season he looked like he would have a big year, but unfortunately it hasn't been the case so far
Jack Gunston - our b&f just got back from injury and so has not had too much form to base much off of
Chad Wingard - is having a solid season, adds pace to our midfield and goal scoring power to our forward line, is having a good season so far
Tom Mitchell - seems to be playing a less contested brand of inside mid footy (less cl), trying to find space, his 20-30m kicks are nice, but over 30m it can go anywhere or skywards
Jarman Impey - playing the run and carry from defence, i think we might need him on the wing especially with his kicking getting better as the year goes on
Kyle Hartigan - i was not a fan of going after a 29 year old FB, he has struggled with the amount of i50's the opposition gets and his lack of mobility and even getting out wrestled
Sam Frost - i still like Frost, he does make silly errors like kicking sideways and turning the ball over, but he is 1 of few players at the club with aggression and a competitive streak
Jaegar O'Meara - probably his best season so far in his career, unfortunately got injured, but we need him now more than ever because we have so few mid options
James Sicily - Injured and likely to miss the whole season so that he can get his knee right for 2022 and beyond
Tom Phillips - we got him over to play wing and he has been ok, i was hoping for a bit more from him
Blake Hardwick - he is back to his old form, being that tough small defender with a knack for hitting the kick from defence
Tim O'Brien - started the season in some good form, but has lost that momentum and is once again in and out the side and playing inconsistent footy
James Worpel - last 2 seasons has had to play tagger or hff with stints in the midfield, is struggling to find the footy in these roles
Harry Morrison - started in good form and has been ok since, doesnt make as many errors and actually does some of the hard stuff like tackles, defensive running ect
Jack Scrimshaw - has had a really strong season so far, good rebound from d50, struggles when he is called on to be 3rd tall for example against Thilthorpe
Mitchell Lewis - has taken a lot of contested marks and is a good target for the long ball, he has had moments of weakness in his marking and efforts, but overall has been good
Oliver Hanrahan - adds a bit of speed when the play opens up a bit, struggles to impact when the game is tough and tight
Will Day - really unfortunate injury, he was looking great again before his injury, should be back in a couple of months or so
Dylan Moore - has made the step up this year, hardworking and i think is still our leading goal scorer, although Kosi might overtake him if he is
Changkouth Jiath - CJ has been a revelation so far this year, intercepting, creating run off half back and even his kicking has improved as well as his physique
Jacob Koschitzke - Kosi has also been a revelation so far this year, the tall defender has transformed into potentially a star forward all in the last 6 months
Tyler Brockman - has gone from late draft potential based off of a intra-state game in 2020 to one of the most exciting small forwards in the AFL

out of this starting squad, Burgoyne is likely to retire at seasons end, Sicily to come back in 2022

The Back Ups: (5 players)
Emerson Jeka - has been exciting for BHH in the pre-season and the start of the season kicking bags and is getting a shot at impressing at AFL level
Michael Hartley - a slim KPD, has a nice kick on him, isnt big enough to be FB, but when we need a 3rd tall defender its his time to shine
Jonathan Ceglar - has been very poor so far this season, has had 2 very poor years, almost like he doesnt care about footy anymore?
Daniel Howe - has had some good moments, but probably has more bad moments than good, is getting another chance this week
James Cousins - has been ok in the midfield for us at times, more a backup mid at this stage


The Developing Talent: (12 players)
Connor Nash - has been up and down for BHH, seems a bit off atm
Josh Morris - has been up and down at BHH, injured atm, we'll see how he develops
Damon Greaves - solid half back who is doing his best at BHH and is struggling to get opportunity after doing very well late in 2020
Ned Reeves - has been good so far this season, developing nicely, rolled an ankle on the weekend, hopefully he is back soon
Harry Pepper - is doing a decent job as sml defender for BHH, could also play sml forward if they want to mix things up
Denver Grainger-Barras - injured atm, hoping he comes back soon and debuts this season
Finn Maginness - i was hopeful he would come good, but the more i see of him at VFL/AFL level, the more i think he might not make it, starting to lose hope
Keegan Brooksby - ruck/forw, old backup ruck, is playing a role at BHH
Seamus Mitchell - still injured
Conor Downie - getting bodied out of contests too often at VFL level, needs to get bigger and improve his contested game, may need more VFL time, i was hoping he could learn at the AFL level, but im changing my mind, i think VFL footy until he starts winning 20 disposals consistently might be the best for him
Jack Saunders - has a bit of speed, but is very raw and a bit too energetic and not composed enough atm, but good signs
Lachie Bramble - another who has good speed and endurance, has been hit with injury, but could be an option on the wing also
 

daniel23

Club Legend
Mar 19, 2006
1,843
3,469
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Yep we're screwed!!!!

I was somewhat optimistic leading into this year , thought our young players had some potential and just needed game time to show it but as its turned out it was more just myself and probably alot of others overating the youth we did have . As a club we are seriously lacking in high end talent and are currently plugging holes with some of the worst role players in the league.

Our pieces moving fwd are

Sicily, impey, hardwick, scrimshaw,cj,day, dgb, worpel, o'meara , kosi, brockman , jeka, wingard , Reeves and maybe Lewis who I like but his second efforts at times are just not good enough. S Mitchell is unknown along with downie.

Outside of that group I don't see much to get excited about besides role players or the likes of bruest and gunston who unfortunately are now in the wrong age bracket.

We need a massive overhaul and I'm not against what north did because they're starting to build a good young core and are actually playing some exciting footy with in games now . I think clarko will always want to stay competitive and play his experience but I just don't see what direction we are going as a club atm . We don't want to trade any players of worth to get back into the draft and despite what others have said tbat we have been drafting using your 1 top pick a year isn't going to cut it. Maybe if we played a half decent brand of footy it wouldn't be to bad but we are borderline un watchable at times.
 

HODGEYROAD

Brownlow Medallist
May 10, 2007
20,383
24,254
Bonbeach
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Arsenal Fc Portland Trailblazers
Yep we're screwed!!!!

I was somewhat optimistic leading into this year , thought our young players had some potential and just needed game time to show it but as its turned out it was more just myself and probably alot of others overating the youth we did have . As a club we are seriously lacking in high end talent and are currently plugging holes with some of the worst role players in the league.

Our pieces moving fwd are

Sicily, impey, hardwick, scrimshaw,cj,day, dgb, worpel, o'meara , kosi, brockman , jeka, wingard , Reeves and maybe Lewis who I like but his second efforts at times are just not good enough. S Mitchell is unknown along with downie.

Outside of that group I don't see much to get excited about besides role players or the likes of bruest and gunston who unfortunately are now in the wrong age bracket.

We need a massive overhaul and I'm not against what north did because they're starting to build a good young core and are actually playing some exciting footy with in games now . I think clarko will always want to stay competitive and play his experience but I just don't see what direction we are going as a club atm . We don't want to trade any players of worth to get back into the draft and despite what others have said tbat we have been drafting using your 1 top pick a year isn't going to cut it. Maybe if we played a half decent brand of footy it wouldn't be to bad but we are borderline un watchable at times.
It's pretty grim when you're struggling for pieces moving forward and that's even with including a player that has never played a game at senior level.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

mustang

Club Legend
Oct 8, 2004
1,112
800
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Leeds United
i wanted to write up my thoughts on our list as it stands and noticed there were no other list management threads for this year

where we are at:

Our Starting Squad imo. (25 players)
Shaun Burgoyne - nearly at the 400 game milestone, has been more of a comforting presence as a respected veteran of AFL footy rather than performing at high levels this year.
Ben McEvoy - was made captain at the start of the season, has not been at his best, but is our only ruck of value atm, he always gives it his all, gotta respect him for that
Liam Shiels - not his best year, has been relieved of the tagging duties mostly in the last couple of years, he is a big bodied mid who tries his best
Luke Breust - in pre-season he looked like he would have a big year, but unfortunately it hasn't been the case so far
Jack Gunston - our b&f just got back from injury and so has not had too much form to base much off of
Chad Wingard - is having a solid season, adds pace to our midfield and goal scoring power to our forward line, is having a good season so far
Tom Mitchell - seems to be playing a less contested brand of inside mid footy (less cl), trying to find space, his 20-30m kicks are nice, but over 30m it can go anywhere or skywards
Jarman Impey - playing the run and carry from defence, i think we might need him on the wing especially with his kicking getting better as the year goes on
Kyle Hartigan - i was not a fan of going after a 29 year old FB, he has struggled with the amount of i50's the opposition gets and his lack of mobility and even getting out wrestled
Sam Frost - i still like Frost, he does make silly errors like kicking sideways and turning the ball over, but he is 1 of few players at the club with aggression and a competitive streak
Jaegar O'Meara - probably his best season so far in his career, unfortunately got injured, but we need him now more than ever because we have so few mid options
James Sicily - Injured and likely to miss the whole season so that he can get his knee right for 2022 and beyond
Tom Phillips - we got him over to play wing and he has been ok, i was hoping for a bit more from him
Blake Hardwick - he is back to his old form, being that tough small defender with a knack for hitting the kick from defence
Tim O'Brien - started the season in some good form, but has lost that momentum and is once again in and out the side and playing inconsistent footy
James Worpel - last 2 seasons has had to play tagger or hff with stints in the midfield, is struggling to find the footy in these roles
Harry Morrison - started in good form and has been ok since, doesnt make as many errors and actually does some of the hard stuff like tackles, defensive running ect
Jack Scrimshaw - has had a really strong season so far, good rebound from d50, struggles when he is called on to be 3rd tall for example against Thilthorpe
Mitchell Lewis - has taken a lot of contested marks and is a good target for the long ball, he has had moments of weakness in his marking and efforts, but overall has been good
Oliver Hanrahan - adds a bit of speed when the play opens up a bit, struggles to impact when the game is tough and tight
Will Day - really unfortunate injury, he was looking great again before his injury, should be back in a couple of months or so
Dylan Moore - has made the step up this year, hardworking and i think is still our leading goal scorer, although Kosi might overtake him if he is
Changkouth Jiath - CJ has been a revelation so far this year, intercepting, creating run off half back and even his kicking has improved as well as his physique
Jacob Koschitzke - Kosi has also been a revelation so far this year, the tall defender has transformed into potentially a star forward all in the last 6 months
Tyler Brockman - has gone from late draft potential based off of a intra-state game in 2020 to one of the most exciting small forwards in the AFL

out of this starting squad, Burgoyne is likely to retire at seasons end, Sicily to come back in 2022

The Back Ups: (5 players)
Emerson Jeka - has been exciting for BHH in the pre-season and the start of the season kicking bags and is getting a shot at impressing at AFL level
Michael Hartley - a slim KPD, has a nice kick on him, isnt big enough to be FB, but when we need a 3rd tall defender its his time to shine
Jonathan Ceglar - has been very poor so far this season, has had 2 very poor years, almost like he doesnt care about footy anymore?
Daniel Howe - has had some good moments, but probably has more bad moments than good, is getting another chance this week
James Cousins - has been ok in the midfield for us at times, more a backup mid at this stage


The Developing Talent: (12 players)
Connor Nash - has been up and down for BHH, seems a bit off atm
Josh Morris - has been up and down at BHH, injured atm, we'll see how he develops
Damon Greaves - solid half back who is doing his best at BHH and is struggling to get opportunity after doing very well late in 2020
Ned Reeves - has been good so far this season, developing nicely, rolled an ankle on the weekend, hopefully he is back soon
Harry Pepper - is doing a decent job as sml defender for BHH, could also play sml forward if they want to mix things up
Denver Grainger-Barras - injured atm, hoping he comes back soon and debuts this season
Finn Maginness - i was hopeful he would come good, but the more i see of him at VFL/AFL level, the more i think he might not make it, starting to lose hope
Keegan Brooksby - ruck/forw, old backup ruck, is playing a role at BHH
Seamus Mitchell - still injured
Conor Downie - getting bodied out of contests too often at VFL level, needs to get bigger and improve his contested game, may need more VFL time, i was hoping he could learn at the AFL level, but im changing my mind, i think VFL footy until he starts winning 20 disposals consistently might be the best for him
Jack Saunders - has a bit of speed, but is very raw and a bit too energetic and not composed enough atm, but good signs
Lachie Bramble - another who has good speed and endurance, has been hit with injury, but could be an option on the wing also
Davo-27 Who can you see us delisting the year and trading.
 

Billyc

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 17, 2009
5,397
14,761
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Fair analysis. I entered the season with low expectations and those expectations are being met. We were always going to struggle with a weak list and no Sicily / Gunston.

What we really lack are class and impact players. Which of our players do the opposition actually worry about getting the ball? With Gunston, Sicily and Day out, id say CJ and Wingard are about the only ones this year (Kosi in the last fortnight perhaps).

Positives this year for me have been CJ who has gone from fringe player to someone really exciting (and he still has a lot of upside). Kosi and Jeka are better than I thought which is really encouraging as that’s been a big list hole. They are both too good for VFL at least.

Biggest negatives are the lack of midfield improvement, lack of leadership from senior players(other than O’Meara) and the injuries to Day and DGB, which has robbed us of some much needed encouragement.

What struck me yesterday watching Box Hill is that Brockman was the only Hawthorn-listed player who looked a class above. Not in terms of his performance (he didn’t do a huge amount), but in terms of ability and skill. The rest looked like average VFL footballers batting to impact at that level, so the cupboard is pretty bare.
 

LMGjr

Cancelled
Jul 25, 2020
1,083
1,672
AFL Club
Hawthorn
A trip back to The Kokoda Track might be in order, once we add at least another 3 youngsters to the group at years end, especially since the old guard will almost all be gone, and O'Meara, Mitchel, Frost, and Wingard (Sicily?) haven't done it. And they are our leaders going forward.

Go back to what worked and start from scratch with bonding this "new" group.

The list is what it is.
 

Lickmesocks

Club Legend
Oct 2, 2019
1,795
6,438
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I would like to see the old ruthless Hawthorn back as it has disappeared the past few years.

No more retirement/farewell years. When it’s over it is OVER.
Tough decisions made on the list and to be bold. Would love 3 picks inside top 20.
If you can’t kick the ball MOVE ON.
If you are a skinny kid that can’t develop any body size or shape time to move on.
Appoint a skipper that is going to compete for 3 years at a high level.

everyone keeps telling me, “we can’t get rid of the older blokes or middle tier plodders or we will be stuck on the bottom for years”. Unfortunately we are near the bottom with the older blokes

We are in no mans land at the minute. Scrapping and trying to stay in games with poor skills will eventually wear you down and kill you anyway.

what is our direction?
If it’s 3 years smashing the draft and accumulating picks come out and tell us.
If Mitchell and Wingard don’t like that because we promised them something different when we recruited them then move them on and accumulate picks.
When we were flying we kept releasing premiership 3-5 year plans.
Where is our 3-5 year strategic plan to pull us out of this mess.
 

LMGjr

Cancelled
Jul 25, 2020
1,083
1,672
AFL Club
Hawthorn
When we were flying we kept releasing premiership 3-5 year plans.
Where is our 3-5 year strategic plan to pull us out of this mess.
The problem with releasing 3-5yr plans when flying is that you can believe the hype to much, instead of looking at what was/is really happening. Especially if that plan was based on being overtly self confident in getting top free agents to finish it off. I don't know if this is what happened but it does explain things, because competent people don't become incompetent overnight - they had their reasons based on forward planning with something that didn't happen being a key component, I believe. But that's not an excuse either.

Chuck Covid on top for good measure with our best player doing his knee. sh*t happens.

I'm sure they are working on pulling us out of this mess, now that the previous 3-5yr plan failed, it stands to reason that they will be, but now it can't be based on "pie in the sky" free agents or miracles being expected from our fitness staff fixing broken down players.

If this young forward line comes together then sh*t can change real quickly, as getting mids is the easy part, it's now tall 10yr defenders we need, imo. Chuck in a midfield mid priced free agent with foot skills and a bit of pace, with a new ruck, and we're a totally different side.
 

Howe Amazing

All Australian
Jul 16, 2017
607
1,272
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Finn first year in a COVID year and only played a few games this year, and being written off already. If we can’t develop someone of his size, endurance into an AFL player, I think we need to look at our development programs. Let’s judge Finn towards end of this year. No doubt DGB and Brockman are talents plus Mitchell has been injured. We are taking a gloomy view as our draftees have not taken the field. No doubt we need to go to the draft hard but we have heaps of room in our cap and can be turned around quickly I think
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

dermott

Club Legend
Oct 9, 2004
2,414
4,129
Portsea
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hawthorn
Kennett recently stated that we expect to contend for silverware in 2023. Contend not win.
That seems to be recognition that we need the 2021 and 2022 draft, free agency and trade periods to build and develop our list to a competitive level.
He also indicated that the draft was our main priority.

Forecasting is always fraught with danger but I tend to agree two full draft periods will be needed. At least.
 

Yardie

Club Legend
Feb 6, 2004
1,966
3,233
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Hawthorn
Our lack of midfield depth/cohesion/speed is what is really killing us.

Back line looks overwhelmed cause it is getting peppered every miniute with inside 50s but overall is decent. But needs Shaggy to become the KPD

Forward line looks dysfunctional cause we hardly go in fast. It could be great or it could be sh*t but we just don't know. (I'm erring on the it is better than we think).

So overall not as bad as some think. Not great but not all doom and gloom.
 

daniel23

Club Legend
Mar 19, 2006
1,843
3,469
AFL Club
Hawthorn
It's pretty grim when you're struggling for pieces moving forward and that's even with including a player that has never played a game at senior level.
I threw Reeves in only because the club is spending a fair bit of time in his development and seems like he will get a run of games fairly soon. I'm not sure if that makes him good though.
 

burner1

Club Legend
Nov 3, 2005
2,253
1,904
victoria
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
hawks
We really need to have nailed the last two drafts. Day and Jeka look like good picks but very early days for both (day has only played 13 games and we’ve seen players like Burton burst into seen then stagnate). Lets hope days ankle doesn’t have any permanent impact. DGB appears an elite talent but won’t know for prob 3+ years if he’ll be able to hold down a kpd as needs to put on 20kg from his drafted weight.

The group of Finn, Morris, seamus, downie, brockman, saunders, bramble are very important. Not a huge amount of confidence so far but lots of time. If all end up busts we are in a world of pain. Kosi, CJ, Lewis, scrim, maybe reeves (+ day, DGB) is nowhere near enough talent. I don’t think Ollie, Nash, Moore, Phillips, greaves, Morrison, howe, pepper will make it (at least to level require in a flag side) - some May rack up lots of game in next two years though.
 

LMGjr

Cancelled
Jul 25, 2020
1,083
1,672
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Kennett recently stated that we expect to contend for silverware in 2023. Contend not win.
That seems to be recognition that we need the 2021 and 2022 draft, free agency and trade periods to build and develop our list to a competitive level.
He also indicated that the draft was our main priority.

Forecasting is always fraught with danger but I tend to agree two full draft periods will be needed. At least.
That sounds reasonable and responsible to me - that's not head in sand stuff at all.

When did he say this?

Sounds like they are just getting on with the job to me.
 

Bardo State

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 21, 2010
12,665
15,033
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Chelsea, Detroit Pistons
I think the 3 year horizon is a very important one with where the talent is concentrated in our list. We will have a mini cliff where we can catch the tail end of Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara and Sicily's good footy with enough time in between to significantly change the list.

In my eyes, we need to develop or recruit another 4-6 A-grade players, and another 4-6 solid best 22 players as well. That would put us in the frame for a run in 2023/2024. Below is how I see the list for that assessment.

A-GRADE (players that can win games, their best footy is some of the best for their role in the comp, contenders usually have close to a dozen of these types)
T. Mitchell
Wingard
O'Meara
Sicily

POTENTIAL A-GRADE
Scrimshaw*
Worpel
Jiath*
Day

BEST 22 (consistent players that play a role well and wouldn't look out of place selected in a very good team, but not match winners, contenders usually have another dozen of these)
Frost
Impey
Phillips
Hardwick
Lewis*
Moore*

DEPTH (can follow instructions and step into the 22 when others are injured to play a role, a team can't have too many of these but you need to carry these types out to your ~30th best player)
Hartley*
O'Brien
Howe
Cousins
Nash
Hanrahan^
Morrison^

SPECULATIVE
Bramble
Reeves
Greaves^
Kosi^
Finn
Pepper
Jeka
Morris
Saunders
DGB^
Downie
S. Mitchell
Brockman^

GONE
Burgoyne
McEvoy
Brooksby
Breust
Ceglar
Shiels
Gunston^
Hartigan^

^I think they could be in a 'better' category but are just short
* I think it could be a stretch to put them in this category and they may not end up there
 

CaptainWorpedo

Senior List
Feb 15, 2021
223
395
AFL Club
Hawthorn
At the moment i refuse to be hard on any player drafted in 2019, 2020 and 2021 as covid19 has impacted there development.

We have bigger problems than our youth. Personally our fringe player who have not come on and our premiership players (not including Gunston) surviving on past glory is why we are lower than expected.

Time for O'brien, Howe, Brooksby, Ceglar, Nash and Cousins to go. An Burgoyne will retire on a high.

Greaves, Hanrahan and Moore will be watched closely should they survive past this season.
 

H00t

Club Legend
Sep 28, 2019
1,376
2,306
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I think the 3 year horizon is a very important one with where the talent is concentrated in our list. We will have a mini cliff where we can catch the tail end of Mitchell, Wingard, O'Meara and Sicily's good footy with enough time in between to significantly change the list.

In my eyes, we need to develop or recruit another 4-6 A-grade players, and another 4-6 solid best 22 players as well. That would put us in the frame for a run in 2023/2024. Below is how I see the list for that assessment.

A-GRADE (players that can win games, their best footy is some of the best for their role in the comp, contenders usually have close to a dozen of these types)
T. Mitchell
Wingard
O'Meara
Sicily

POTENTIAL A-GRADE
Scrimshaw*
Worpel
Jiath*
Day

BEST 22 (consistent players that play a role well and wouldn't look out of place selected in a very good team, but not match winners, contenders usually have another dozen of these)
Frost
Impey
Phillips
Hardwick
Lewis*
Moore*

DEPTH (can follow instructions and step into the 22 when others are injured to play a role, a team can't have too many of these but you need to carry these types out to your ~30th best player)
Hartley*
O'Brien
Howe
Cousins
Nash
Hanrahan^
Morrison^

SPECULATIVE
Bramble
Reeves
Greaves^
Kosi^
Finn
Pepper
Jeka
Morris
Saunders
DGB^
Downie
S. Mitchell
Brockman^

GONE
Burgoyne
McEvoy
Brooksby
Breust
Ceglar
Shiels
Gunston^
Hartigan^

^I think they could be in a 'better' category but are just short
* I think it could be a stretch to put them in this category and they may not end up there
Chasing a flag for T. Mitchell, JOM, Wings and Sicily feels eerily similar to what we did from 2016-2019 in trying to get another flag for our 3-peat players.

You’ve set out our list perfectly. And it shows how bereft of talent we are. Especially as we can’t get our good players to play well together. There is no cohesion on the field.

The club seems to be chasing a hopefully contend in 3 years but doing nothing to put the blocks in place to do it. We won’t risk the draft to get talent. We continue to play people who unfortunately won’t be able to play at the level required. While not giving those a chance who could make it.

Then when we do give those players a chance it’s generally out of position and for a limited time. That’s not including the lack of continuity of games for Finn, Downie etc. when they’ve been the sub or emergency and therefore missed the VFL game.

We should be in a rebuilding phase instead rather than develop for the future and play in a way that help that we play to not lose and end up treading water.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad