List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

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Crankyhawk

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 21, 2007
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Shockers and Superstars almost in even measure. if you are cracking 40-45%, even with solid players, you are ahead of the 'average'

Hodge Lewis Franklin Roughead Croad Harford v thorp Dowler brennan ellis McPharlin
Rioli Crawford Allan ladson Platten Smith Schoemakers Holland v Robran Lamb O'dwyer Obst Burton Elstone Muston Lovell
mcpharlin not a bust, just stolen with non existent salary cap
 

bigmaxi

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Nov 11, 2006
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It’s a sign of the times (Covid) that nearly all clubs have guys training earlier than scheduled to officially return
Most of them didn’t leave town for obvious reasons, they have been heading out to respective clubs grounds to train and hang out. first round everyone will be raring to go.
 

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Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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We have traded in a lot of top 10 picks including Silk, McEvoy, Wingard, O'Meara, Scrimmers and Tom who would have been if not for being a F/S selection. Gunston and Impey both top 30 selections.

But I think the point the original poster was trying to make was that premiership teams are built on a core of drafted (not traded) top end picks which we don't have (yet).
Scrimshaw basically counts as drafted. Early 20s high pick high talent.
 

Topiary

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Jul 22, 2016
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His handballing under pressure was really good at the end of the year. Chose best option rather than just handball to someone under pressure.
With Nash and any of these Irish blokes it is about decision making. Nothing beats playing the game as a kid to sharpen decision making. Don’t worry, competent decision making is not only an issue for the Irish blokes but it is made easier the earlier you are exposed to the game.
Nash is better because he is playing more of the game.
 

Topiary

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Jul 22, 2016
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We had 11 or 12 the previous year too. It may not feel like it but our list has undergone a major overhaul since we committed to rebuilding mid 2020.
It might be staggered a little more, but this is the dual challenge of not only improving the List, but also replacing those already on the List. It is why the journey must take longer.
 

Pessimistic

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We have traded in a lot of top 10 picks including Silk, McEvoy, Wingard, O'Meara, Scrimmers and Tom who would have been if not for being a F/S selection. Gunston and Impey both top 30 selections.

But I think the point the original poster was trying to make was that premiership teams are built on a core of drafted (not traded) top end picks which we don't have (yet).
‘bringing in talented youngsters to form your core is a no brainer and standard for every professional sport anywhere in the world. E.g Manchester United under Fergusson.

the debate is do you take this to extremes e.g. dispose of talent at 28ish to chase more draft picks? One thing for sure hawks 2011-13 benefitted from getting bigboy, lake, frawley from teams doing thus.
Is the lack of takers for our infamous 2021 ‘all available’ a clue that less clubs are buying into it? (Or just that the types of players being offered weren’t in short supply)

as someone noted, there’s also plenty of also ran teams (and perennial ‘rebuilders’ who don’t even contend) who stock up in drafts in that manner. There’s clearly other factors
 
Apr 19, 2006
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We don’t. I’m not against trading but we were adding these guys to Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Roughy, Lewis, Birch and Cyril. If you tried to add these players through trading you’d run out of trade capital very quickly trying to bring them in or broke through free agency.

Plus we had a number of other very important players. Smith drafted early but Hill, Shiels, poppy, Breust and Stratton with picks 30+.

This current list I’m not seeing the quality that we start building around. Instead we need to look to draft it.
I think the exciting part about our list these days is that we’re building it with almost every available lever(to use a Clarko-ism) . National Draft, rookies, supplementary players, mid season rookies, FA’s(notably not any big ones as yet).
We could definitely do with more top 3 picks, most sides could, but we do seem to have been able to find some diamonds in amongst our later picks recently.
Day, CJ, Bramble, Jeka, Reeves, Kosi, Mitchell all have big upside, yet didn’t need to be found in the first handful of picks in the draft. Fingers crossed they all realise their potential, but I can certainly see the quality to build around.

No doubt the list of players from 2008 in your post above has not been matched for equivalent talent as yet, but when people say that we need to access the first 3 picks of a draft multiple times to build a flag side(I've been having this debate with a North fan on the main board) it’s very interesting to go and look at that Richmond premiership side of 2017 and see that they had only 2 players in that side that were taken inside the top 5 picks in the draft(Martin, Cotchin). They'd also drafted well in the later rounds or the rookie draft(Lambert, Short, Broad, Grimes) and they had traded in some ready made players too ( Caddy, Grigg, Houli and Prestia).

So where does that leave us? Well, we’re still building the list over the next two drafts at the least, McKenzie and McCartney have both told us that, but I think with a bit of luck and development we’ve got a large part of the base of a future premiership capable side now on the list, but we need to add at least 2 match winning midfielders to the side over the next 2 drafts(2021 and 2022) to replace Tom and JOM in the longterm, and a dangerous small forward or two.

If we do that via the draft over the next two off seasons, trade a role player or two in, unearth 1 or 2 more players like CJ from out of nowhere(looking at you Seamus!) and build the outside run we’re lacking with Downie and Bramble we’ really should be playing finals in 2024.
 

Pessimistic

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Really the heavy lifting of the list demographics has been done, even if immediate success isn’t apparent.

all our draftees from now should be able to do a 2 year apprenticeship before slotting into the 22 full tome and covering the loss of a retiree(there should only be half a dozen players eg retiring over the next 3-4)

while the emphasis is now more on the draft, I don’t believe the club has closed the door on mature recruits and very much should do so if the right opportunity arises
 

Dewnior

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Is the lack of takers for our infamous 2021 ‘all available’ a clue that less clubs are buying into it? (Or just that the types of players being offered weren’t in short supply)
Lack of takers? Where did you get this from?

Firstly, the players didn't want to leave and secondly we weren't going to let them go for peanuts.
 

Pessimistic

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Lack of takers? Where did you get this from?

Firstly, the players didn't want to leave and secondly we weren't going to let them go for peanuts.
‘yes I tend to agree, just asking a question. Are clubs today actually less sold on the ‘hard rebuild’ than media and bigfooty posters? Are we behind the times?

maybe clubs can’t actually compete with gws and Gold Coast (to a lesser extent) who are perpetuating this strategy, trading out players an scooping up early draft picks. No lack of talent wanting to leave there.
How successful have they been? They seem to lack backbone when the whips are cracking.
 

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Apr 19, 2006
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‘yes I tend to agree, just asking a question. Are clubs today actually less sold on the ‘hard rebuild’ than media and bigfooty posters? Are we behind the times?
List spots have been squeezed, as have salary caps over the last 2 years. It wasn't the best time to be trying to get trades done for our big names, as the potential buyers didn't have the cap space to spend, nor the want to trade out of a draft when next years is such an unknown.

I would expect a slight change in 2022, when clubs have more of a grip of their caps and they've been able to get a better look at the 2022 and 2023 draft crops..
 

Dominic03

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Oct 28, 2020
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Scrimshaw basically counts as traded, as we traded for him.
We traded for him yes, but when we got him he was like 21, he was a pick 7 and we genuinely spent like a 4th rounder on him. His talent levels are also sky high. So that's why it talent shouldn't be just on who you draft, or the picks you've always had access to as you can find these steals while getting your draft picks and it's complete bonuses which fast track things.
 

H00t

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Sep 28, 2019
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I think the exciting part about our list these days is that we’re building it with almost every available lever(to use a Clarko-ism) . National Draft, rookies, supplementary players, mid season rookies, FA’s(notably not any big ones as yet).
We could definitely do with more top 3 picks, most sides could, but we do seem to have been able to find some diamonds in amongst our later picks recently.
Day, CJ, Bramble, Jeka, Reeves, Kosi, Mitchell all have big upside, yet didn’t need to be found in the first handful of picks in the draft. Fingers crossed they all realise their potential, but I can certainly see the quality to build around.

No doubt the list of players from 2008 in your post above has not been matched for equivalent talent as yet, but when people say that we need to access the first 3 picks of a draft multiple times to build a flag side(I've been having this debate with a North fan on the main board) it’s very interesting to go and look at that Richmond premiership side of 2017 and see that they had only 2 players in that side that were taken inside the top 5 picks in the draft(Martin, Cotchin). They'd also drafted well in the later rounds or the rookie draft(Lambert, Short, Broad, Grimes) and they had traded in some ready made players too ( Caddy, Grigg, Houli and Prestia).

So where does that leave us? Well, we’re still building the list over the next two drafts at the least, McKenzie and McCartney have both told us that, but I think with a bit of luck and development we’ve got a large part of the base of a future premiership capable side now on the list, but we need to add at least 2 match winning midfielders to the side over the next 2 drafts(2021 and 2022) to replace Tom and JOM in the longterm, and a dangerous small forward or two.

If we do that via the draft over the next two off seasons, trade a role player or two in, unearth 1 or 2 more players like CJ from out of nowhere(looking at you Seamus!) and build the outside run we’re lacking with Downie and Bramble we’ really should be playing finals in 2024.
I definitely think we are building a very solid list. Our ability to utilise late picks and mid/rookie drafts has been great.

And I’m also a believer that it doesn’t matter what pick you are drafted with when you are in the list. So many of our better players were late picks. Our better players are good, but to me not good enough to spearhead a premiership assault. (Day and DGB excluded)

That’s why I feel we need elite talent added to our list. And the first round of the draft is the best place to get it. Especially as we try to push up the ladder in a couple of years time. I think the deciding factor on how far we push with this list in the coming years is how many game winners we can get.

We could always buck the trend and get that talent from rookie draft/ late picks. But these sorts of players going then are as rare as hens teeth.
 

Slainte

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Oct 10, 2008
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299
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It is interesting to go back to the last six rounds when we played three finalists (including the two grand finalists) and lost only to lowly Adelaide. The game stats for this period does not suggest we have a major midfield problem. We usually lost the centre clearances but won the stoppage clearances (except when the played the Bulldogs, when this pattern was reversed).

That suggests to me that our real problem is that we consistently lose the hitouts, especially in the centre square. McEvoy no longer has the leap to square a contest in the middle, which means a half decent opposition ruckman can palm the ball to advantage and with clean ball handling, the opposition gets both a clearance and a forward entry. Ceglar can be very effective against a weak ruck (he had a field day against English) but he was an attacking ruckman and good opposition ruckman often got clean hitouts against him.

We partially solved the problem by using Newcombe and Nash as defensive mids in the centre square but even a good defensive mid has little chance when there is a clean hitout into the path of an attacking mid on the move.

We now have a new ruck combination and will be looking to Reeves to improve both in his stamina and his technique. I am increasingly wondering how McEvoy gets a game but I guess that will depend on how how Max Lynch shapes up. I just hope McEvoy does not get re-appointed as captain or we could have a repetition of the problem we had with Stratton.

I think that if we can get our rucks genuinely competitive, our midfield issue will largely disappear. We still want at least one quality mid via the draft but it is not vital to get two or three in quick. We can rebuild the midfield over several drafts as well as monitoring the progress of O'Hara and Saunders.
 

H00t

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Sep 28, 2019
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It is interesting to go back to the last six rounds when we played three finalists (including the two grand finalists) and lost only to lowly Adelaide. The game stats for this period does not suggest we have a major midfield problem. We usually lost the centre clearances but won the stoppage clearances (except when the played the Bulldogs, when this pattern was reversed).

That suggests to me that our real problem is that we consistently lose the hitouts, especially in the centre square. McEvoy no longer has the leap to square a contest in the middle, which means a half decent opposition ruckman can palm the ball to advantage and with clean ball handling, the opposition gets both a clearance and a forward entry. Ceglar can be very effective against a weak ruck (he had a field day against English) but he was an attacking ruckman and good opposition ruckman often got clean hitouts against him.

We partially solved the problem by using Newcombe and Nash as defensive mids in the centre square but even a good defensive mid has little chance when there is a clean hitout into the path of an attacking mid on the move.

We now have a new ruck combination and will be looking to Reeves to improve both in his stamina and his technique. I am increasingly wondering how McEvoy gets a game but I guess that will depend on how how Max Lynch shapes up. I just hope McEvoy does not get re-appointed as captain or we could have a repetition of the problem we had with Stratton.

I think that if we can get our rucks genuinely competitive, our midfield issue will largely disappear. We still want at least one quality mid via the draft but it is not vital to get two or three in quick. We can rebuild the midfield over several drafts as well as monitoring the progress of O'Hara and Saunders.
A lot more variables go into around the ground clearances though. Where the clearance is (lot more likely to win a clearance in your d50) and how teams structure up around clearances (extra numbers).

What would be interesting to look at would be score differential from clearances and centre clearances. I feel we’d be behind in both. But especially centre clearances. The number of teams we got scored against from a centre clearance seems really high.

That’s not a ruck problem but a midfielder problem with our lack of defensive pressure. You can defend clean hit out by making them kick. We let teams just run the ball straight out of the middle against us. Especially even when one of our rucks won the hitout we’d still have it happen.

The flip side to that is teams stopped us doing the same. We lacked offensive hurt the other way so teams could attack more freely at centre bounces.
 

H00t

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Sep 28, 2019
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We traded for him yes, but when we got him he was like 21, he was a pick 7 and we genuinely spent like a 4th rounder on him. His talent levels are also sky high. So that's why it talent shouldn't be just on who you draft, or the picks you've always had access to as you can find these steals while getting your draft picks and it's complete bonuses which fast track things.
We also got Gibson, Lake and Hale for next to nothing as well. These guys played an extremely important part in our flag wins. But as you said these guys are bonuses. You can’t rely and build off these sorts of picks.

You just try to keep your eyes open and grab them when they pop up. Like we should have with Amon. They give you that extra little bit to get over the top.
 

Slainte

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Oct 10, 2008
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A lot more variables go into around the ground clearances though. Where the clearance is (lot more likely to win a clearance in your d50) and how teams structure up around clearances (extra numbers).

What would be interesting to look at would be score differential from clearances and centre clearances. I feel we’d be behind in both. But especially centre clearances. The number of teams we got scored against from a centre clearance seems really high.

That’s not a ruck problem but a midfielder problem with our lack of defensive pressure. You can defend clean hit out by making them kick. We let teams just run the ball straight out of the middle against us. Especially even when one of our rucks won the hitout we’d still have it happen.

The flip side to that is teams stopped us doing the same. We lacked offensive hurt the other way so teams could attack more freely at centre bounces.
It is not the kick that kills you at the centre bounce. It is usually the quick hand-pass to a player in space who has time to run and kick. A clean and accurate palm down in the centre square is very difficult to defend if the recipient has quick hands We had a lot of trouble with opposition fast ball movement from the centre, usually involving one or two hand-passes before the kick. It often started by losing the ruck contest. Fix that and it is us that gets the fast handballs out to someone like Wingard who spots up an unguarded forward. Ruck dominance can make a difference - just ask Oliver and Petracca.
 

burger09

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Sep 30, 2015
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We look to be building a really solid list.

Greatness is yet to show itself.

There are no definate superstars in the making as there was with Buddy, Cyril, Rough.

A couple of maybe stars. I think this is why a lot of us are hopeful rather than confident we will reach the top with what we have. A couple of superstar mids and a gun key forward and that changes.

They 'might' be on our list now.

Star mids and key forwards are more likely to be taken in the first round of the draft.

Our last 2 first round picks have netted us 2 half backs. They look to be very good prospects and most likely best available at our picks.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck on our side to find A grade mids and key forwards, capable of taking us all the way to a dynasty, with late picks.

Do we roll the dice on X factor players this year like Andrew or Rachelle? Or do we stock the midfield with a solid type ala Hobbs or Ward?
 
Last edited:

theiaofseed

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Jun 17, 2019
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We look to be building a really solid list.

Greatness is yet to show itself.

There are no definate superstars in the making as there was with Buddy, Cyril, Rough.

A couple of maybe stars. I think this is why a lot of us are hopeful rather than confident will reach the top with what we have. A couple of superstar mids and a gun key forward and that changes.

They 'might' be on our list now.

Star mids and key forwards are more likely to be taken in the first round of the draft.

Our last 2 first round picks have netted us 2 half backs. They look to be very good prospects and most likely best available at our picks.

We are going to need a hell of a lot of luck on our side to find A grade mids and key forwards, capable of taking us all the way to a dynasty, with late picks.

Do we roll the dice on X factor players this year like Andrew or Rachelle? Or do we stock the midfield with a solid type ala Hobbs or Ward?
You mean a KPD that can play Forward and a player that will play on the wing once he develops :thumbsu:
 

Dewnior

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 22, 2007
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‘yes I tend to agree, just asking a question. Are clubs today actually less sold on the ‘hard rebuild’ than media and bigfooty posters? Are we behind the times?

maybe clubs can’t actually compete with gws and Gold Coast (to a lesser extent) who are perpetuating this strategy, trading out players an scooping up early draft picks. No lack of talent wanting to leave there.
How successful have they been? They seem to lack backbone when the whips are cracking.
I think it's a combination of what SYL said as well as clubs being wary of the impact a hard rebuild has on their membership base. Eg the $tains cannot afford this strategy due to their fickle supporter base hence why they are so dependent on their academy.
 

Roger Rogerson

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Oct 9, 2006
8,703
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It is interesting to go back to the last six rounds when we played three finalists (including the two grand finalists) and lost only to lowly Adelaide. The game stats for this period does not suggest we have a major midfield problem. We usually lost the centre clearances but won the stoppage clearances (except when the played the Bulldogs, when this pattern was reversed).

That suggests to me that our real problem is that we consistently lose the hitouts, especially in the centre square. McEvoy no longer has the leap to square a contest in the middle, which means a half decent opposition ruckman can palm the ball to advantage and with clean ball handling, the opposition gets both a clearance and a forward entry. Ceglar can be very effective against a weak ruck (he had a field day against English) but he was an attacking ruckman and good opposition ruckman often got clean hitouts against him.

We partially solved the problem by using Newcombe and Nash as defensive mids in the centre square but even a good defensive mid has little chance when there is a clean hitout into the path of an attacking mid on the move.

We now have a new ruck combination and will be looking to Reeves to improve both in his stamina and his technique. I am increasingly wondering how McEvoy gets a game but I guess that will depend on how how Max Lynch shapes up. I just hope McEvoy does not get re-appointed as captain or we could have a repetition of the problem we had with Stratton.

I think that if we can get our rucks genuinely competitive, our midfield issue will largely disappear. We still want at least one quality mid via the draft but it is not vital to get two or three in quick. We can rebuild the midfield over several drafts as well as monitoring the progress of O'Hara and Saunders.
Yep we must appoint a new captain. There is no doubt in my mind.
 

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