List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

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Apr 14, 2009
135
263
Adelaide
AFL Club
Hawthorn
No issues with TOM being trade in fact it just has to happen. Our Vanilla midfield needs to be turned over and need pace and skill added we just need to find match winners.

I am not over excited about mentions of Gunston as a trade option we need his experience and leadership more than ever next season plus he will take the number 1 defender.
I don’t see TOM as a good fit for the Tigers but they have 2 late first round picks. Think he fits the Blues, him getting it and dishing it to Walsh, doubt we can get our hands on their first rounder with them sitting 13th, next pick is mid second round, not enough value for us.

Can’t see the Gunners to Brisbane thing either.. they do have 2 late first rounders to play with. One of them is overs for Jack at his age, but if they think they are in the premiership window may pay it if they see him as the missing piece.

Not sure where to look for Wingard, throw his name out there and see who bites I guess.

Having a look at other clubs draft picks just then, I’ld be going hard for the WB first pick. Packaging our picks of 23, 56 and 66 isn’t much of a points upgrade, so maybe need to find some extra points somewhere, Hanners to Cats maybe? Ild prefer not to finish last but on last nights game it’s a real possibility, a gentleman’s agreement with the WB not to bid on Darcy might be the thing gets this done.
 

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fairdinks

Debutant
Aug 17, 2009
76
203
NSW
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Hawthorn
There are a lot of alternate views on here about our list and what is required. Also a lot of hope with people crying out for mature players to be dumped and young blokes like Saunders, Finn, Callow, Jekka, Pepper, Mitchell, Morris etc should be playing in the ones. Nothing any of these players have done either at BH or with the a few games in the ones, suggest they are currently up to it. Brockman is getting a game but providing less that Ollie for example, Jekka showed nothing in the higher grade (yet), Callow does not deserve a run on BH form, Finn has showed very little, etc etc.

What I am saying is these young players may make it in time, but if they are not really demanding a spot, they may be adversely affected by coming in before they are ready and getting pumped. Cousins, Reeves, Moore, Morrison, Nash, Lewis, Greaves etc have had a reasonable run and you can see something, but they showed more at BH before they were elevated. It takes time with most young recruits. Some of these blokes wont make it long term and some of the untried guys may never get a go becasue they are not good enough. The truth is that Hawthorn will probably turn over more than a dozen players over the next two years. But, the new players need to be types that have a differerence - pace, strength, high skill, leadership, aggression, etc. Over the next few years, we need to find the game breakers you can mould a successful side around. Like a broken record, we need a few more of the buddy, roughy, hodge, Mitchell, and Cyril types. Generational players.

I'm still positive about a flag or two this decade, becasue thats what the Hawks do. Been a fan/member since 1966, so i can't complain too much about our current temporary slide
 

bumsonseats

Premiership Player
Oct 8, 2009
4,135
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Back in Stinktown (Adelaide)
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Hawthorn
Probably not a great time to be at the bottom end of the table.
Surely the next couple of drafts are compromised due to CoVID.
A number of U18 and state league games being cancelled last year and now this year -> reduced development opportunity and less opportunity for recruiters to get a feel of exactly where some players fit. The higher end talent is probably reasonably well known, but reduced opportunities for some of the next tier to pop their heads up. I think there will be some diamonds in the rough.

Agree that we need to be aggressive with our list management over the next couple of years.
As always, there will be a few surprises as to who we delist or trade out.
 
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Probably not a great time to be at the bottom end of the table.
Surely the next couple of drafts are compromised due to CoVID.
A number of U18 and state league games being cancelled last year and now this year -> reduced development opportunity and less opportunity for recruiters to get a feel of exactly where some players fit. The higher end talent is probably reasonably well known, but reduced opportunities for some of the next tier to pop their heads up. I think there will be some diamonds in the rough.

Agree that we need to be aggressive with our list management over the next couple of years.
As always, there will be a few surprises as to who we delist or trade out.
Doubt it. There’s been plenty of games played this year both at NAB League level sanfl/wafl level and school footy. Same for under 17’s.
 

H00t

Club Legend
Sep 28, 2019
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Doubt it. There’s been plenty of games played this year both at NAB League level sanfl/wafl level and school footy. Same for under 17’s.
Agreed especially as recruiters generally can tell talent without many games. The exact order might change slightly with more games and late picks might change a bit.

But the top of the draft is pretty settled in terms of players apart from the odd riser or faller. Just puts a bit more pressure on recruiters.
 

Collins-Langford-Ayres

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Mar 23, 2007
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Any thought on Harry Pepper's future? He seems to be playing more as a small defender where we have lots of depth, than a small forward.

In addition, Josh Morris has now gone back and is getting some praise.
 

HODGEYROAD

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May 10, 2007
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The following should be moved on in some shape whether that be trade, retirement, delisting .

Howe Shiels Burgoyne Brooksby Cousins Ceglar Hanrahan.

2 of the following should be looked at as trade options to help with draft assets as long as the price is right.

Gunston Wingard Mitchell Omeara Breust.
We've missed the boat trading those 2, won't extract enough value now.
 

HODGEYROAD

Brownlow Medallist
May 10, 2007
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There are a lot of alternate views on here about our list and what is required. Also a lot of hope with people crying out for mature players to be dumped and young blokes like Saunders, Finn, Callow, Jekka, Pepper, Mitchell, Morris etc should be playing in the ones. Nothing any of these players have done either at BH or with the a few games in the ones, suggest they are currently up to it. Brockman is getting a game but providing less that Ollie for example, Jekka showed nothing in the higones, her grade (yet), Callow does not deserve a run on BH form, Finn has showed very little, etc etc.

What I am saying is these young players may make it in time, but if they are not really demanding a spot, they may be adversely affected by coming in before they are ready and getting pumped. Cousins, Reeves, Moore, Morrison, Nash, Lewis, Greaves etc have had a reasonable run and you can see something, but they showed more at BH before they were elevated. It takes time with most young recruits. Some of these blokes wont make it long term and some of the untried guys may never get a go becasue they are not good enough. The truth is that Hawthorn will probably turn over more than a dozen players over the next two years. But, the new players need to be types that have a differerence - pace, strength, high skill, leadership, aggression, etc. Over the next few years, we need to find the game breakers you can mould a successful side around. Like a broken record, we need a few more of the buddy, roughy, hodge, Mitchell, and Cyril types. Generational players.

I'm still positive about a flag or two this decade, becasue thats what the Hawks do. Been a fan/member since 1966, so i can't complain too much about our current temporary slide
Past glories have nothing to do with potential future ones, only way we win a flag this decade is if we get our act together on and off the field quick smart.
 
Apr 14, 2009
135
263
Adelaide
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I hope the AFL gives an indication on list sizes for next year before the end of the season. Really important for what we do in the off season.

Yes Scully and Patton left so their is coin in the kitty. We have filled list spots with Bramble, Newcombe and Callow though with Sic on the LTI list.

Few retirements and delistings but that’s for the draft picks. Some tough calls will have to be made to really capitalise on PSD and Free agency… if you go and look at the playing list there is a lot young players that I would like to see get another year over being cut..
 

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Mercy Seat

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2008
4,132
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melbourne
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If we dont take an aggressive approach to our list management this year I will be really disappointed. A combination of being too loyal, too conservative and overrating a great portion of our list over the last 3-4 years has pretty much got us to where we are now. I can't help but think this sits squarely with Clarko.
IMO Wingard and Mitchell must be moved on to facilitate improving our draft hand significantly.
Shiels has always been a limited footballer but served a purpose - that purpose ceased to exit probably 2 years ago and has been lucky to maintain his spot since.
Cousins is more deadwood on top of an existing mega pile of deadwood. Only one of Cousins or Howe is required next year and Howe has Cousins covered comfortably.
Again, we've all been waiting for aggressive list management decisions to better our draft hand and IMO We've copped out. This year there are no excuses.
Who have we been too loyal to? It’s a common narrative here but you have to credit the club in this regard. We moved on so many of our flag faves a year or so before their times were up, I don’t know what more we could have done. Our list is unrecognisable from 5 years ago, I think we have turned over more than any other club since then and used more players on our list in that period.

Ultimately I think it’s the one point you’ve made and that is overrating our list, combined with rotten luck with recruiting, free agents and in part, injury. But if it’s about keeping Howe, Ceglar and O’Brien on the list, sorry I’m just not buying that. We just have not had close to the depth to push these guys out.
 

Roger Rogerson

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 9, 2006
8,568
12,860
Malvern East
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Who have we been too loyal to? It’s a common narrative here but you have to credit the club in this regard. We moved on so many of our flag faves a year or so before their times were up, I don’t know what more we could have done. Our list is unrecognisable from 5 years ago, I think we have turned over more than any other club since then and used more players on our list in that period.

Ultimately I think it’s the one point you’ve made and that is overrating our list, combined with rotten luck with recruiting, free agents and in part, injury. But if it’s about keeping Howe, Ceglar and O’Brien on the list, sorry I’m just not buying that. We just have not had close to the depth to push these guys out.
We moved our big names on a year early so they get could another 1 or 2 seasons more than we were willing to give them. That's not ending their career a year early it's guaranteeing them more time in the game and income.

And we did it for steak knives each time as a thank you for service. We didn't extract any value whatsever from the draft in making these calls so they weren't part of a cunning broader list management strategy. They were isolated decisions no doubt driven by Clarko.

But then we have seen the following:

Poppy played a season too long.

Stratts played a season too long.

Burger was cooked last year. Another season too long.

Then the loyalty at the selection table which is a whole separate thread. And the loyalty to players at the trade table which is another thread.

We really need to do a reverse and try and turn 1 player at the trade table into 2 picks to increase the chances of unearthing players. We need to turn 3 into 5 in the next 2 drafts otherwise out flag every decade since the 60s is in question. We will most likely need two surges at it with player groups this decade.
 

Mercy Seat

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2008
4,132
10,321
melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
We moved our big names on a year early so they get could another 1 or 2 seasons more than we were willing to give them. That's not ending their career a year early it's guaranteeing them more time in the game and income.

And we did it for steak knives each time as a thank you for service. We didn't extract any value whatsever from the draft in making these calls so they weren't part of a cunning broader list management strategy. They were isolated decisions no doubt driven by Clarko.

But then we have seen the following:

Poppy played a season too long.

Stratts played a season too long.

Burger was cooked last year. Another season too long.

Then the loyalty at the selection table which is a whole separate thread. And the loyalty to players at the trade table which is another thread.

We really need to do a reverse and try and turn 1 player at the trade table into 2 picks to increase the chances of unearthing players. We need to turn 3 into 5 in the next 2 drafts otherwise out flag every decade since the 60s is in question. We will most likely need two surges at it with player groups this decade.
Hale, Lake, Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Chip, Birchall etc all wanted to play on for us and we moved them on, or facilitated a trade. It doesn’t matter what we got for them in the end because ultimately it was about moving on 3-4 flag players a year, which we’ve consistently done. I think this was pretty gutsy by the club, despite plenty of calls by fans against it.

As for Stratt and Popps, the end came quick. Stratts was 10th in our bnf the year before, and poppy was still doing ok things. Both relatively young age wise. I don’t think it was blind loyalty as you’re suggesting, just a severe drop off. Burgs was kept on for other reasons explained in many threads round here.

I think it’s easy to look backwards and say that players were obviously cooked, but the club had genuine top 4 aspirations at the beginning of 2020. We weren’t handing out 1 year extensions as thank you tokens, we genuinely thought we were going to have another crack at it, and still did up until about round 5, and that these players would deliver. Call it overrating your list sure, but I don’t see it as loyalty.
 
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sven_inc

Club Legend
Dec 29, 2008
2,990
5,300
Mornington Peninsula
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Hawthorn
The other nuance to the culling/keeping of our vets IMO was to try and balance the regenerative process. We needed to move those stars out to fast track a reliance on the next wave of players. On the flip side we kept guys a little longer down the track to keep that balance of experience on the list. In reality, if someone was cooked we should have had the young depth coming through forcing them out of the team. But our underbelly just wasn't ready.

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