List Mgmt. List management thread.

[Seedsfan]

Height is irrelevant

 

[DaVe86]

With the surplus of tall defenders we seem to have, its the perfect scenario to secure another 1st round pick.

Nathan Brown at this point has currency, I have no doubt there would be suitors come knocking with a first rounder in their pockets.

He just lacks that mobility that Frost and Keeffe posess.

Its harsh but it could end up being the way we have to go, as has been previously stated we cant just carry these blokes as reserves.

I think it is definitely a consideration.

You need depth, but I don't think you want players of the quality of Nathan Brown sitting at VFL level rotting their value. You want developing talls and a few backups just in case.

But that said Maxwell doesn't have long left so once he goes, we will probably play the 3 talls, with Reid still an option.

If a top 10 pick were on offer I'd seriously consider, but otherwise I think he should be off the table.

 

[dubber]

Adams
Kennedy
Blair
Sinclair
Elliott
Sidebottom
Marley Williams
Josh Thomas
Fasolo
Dwyer
Marty Clarke
Kyle Martin
Yagmoor

Bolded ones are not going anywhere. My mail is that Marty will be returning to Ireland end of the year.

 

[DaVe86]

Height is irrelevant

I don't think so. Most of the best teams over the last decade have been big bodied teams with physical presence.

We might have run, but we will get pushed off the contest a lot without a few bigger bodies. I think you need an even blend.

Once Ball and Swan retire, the reliance goes onto Adams and Josh Thomas to replace. You are talking about 2 taller mids been replaced by 2 smaller ones. Althoug the younger guys have guts, they can't stand up in a tackle or stick a tackle like Ball and Swan who simply don't get pushed off the ball at all.

 

[Tommy Magpie]

I think it is definitely a consideration.

You need depth, but I don't think you want players of the quality of Nathan Brown sitting at VFL level rotting their value. You want developing talls and a few backups just in case.

But that said Maxwell doesn't have long left so once he goes, we will probably play the 3 talls, with Reid still an option.

If a top 10 pick were on offer I'd seriously consider, but otherwise I think he should be off the table.

Anything in the top 15 and id be more than happy to oblige, personally.

 

[DaVe86]

Bolded ones are not going anywhere. My mail is that Marty will be returning to Ireland end of the year.

Agreed....and as I said the top 10 on that list are all worthy of games.

However, not all can get into the 22. We then play 6 KPP's and a ruckman. So that would leave only 5 spots open.

I would've thought you could only play about 6 guys at that height. 2 forward, 3 mid and 1 back. We could probably get away with 8 while Ball, Pendlebury, Swan and Beams are in the side.

 

[Seedsfan]

I don't think so. Most of the best teams over the last decade have been big bodied teams with physical presence.

We might have run, but we will get pushed off the contest a lot without a few bigger bodies. I think you need an even blend.

Once Ball and Swan retire, the reliance goes onto Adams and Josh Thomas to replace. You are talking about 2 taller mids been replaced by 2 smaller ones. Althoug the younger guys have guts, they can't stand up in a tackle or stick a tackle like Ball and Swan who simply don't get pushed off the ball at all.

Small guys don't get pushed off the ball look at Blair, it is short guys who are weak like a Elijia Edwards who would get pushed off the ball. People are getting carried away with the idea that you need a tall midfield because last year Freo was one of the best sides and they had a tall mids

 

[dubber]

Agreed....and as I said the top 10 on that list are all worthy of games.

However, not all can get into the 22. We then play 6 KPP's and a ruckman. So that would leave only 5 spots open.

I would've thought you could only play about 6 guys at that height. 2 forward, 3 mid and 1 back. We could probably get away with 8 while Ball, Pendlebury, Swan and Beams are in the side.

That's why its important to have a stand alone VFL team so players keep pushing for spots, if you are not playing AFL then you better be ripping it up in VFL.

 

[Seedsfan]

With the surplus of tall defenders we seem to have, its the perfect scenario to secure another 1st round pick.

Nathan Brown at this point has currency, I have no doubt there would be suitors come knocking with a first rounder in their pockets.

He just lacks that mobility that Frost and Keeffe posess.

Its harsh but it could end up being the way we have to go, as has been previously stated we cant just carry these blokes as reserves.

Stupid idea, Brown when fully fit is still in the best 22. If Frost or Keeffe get injured and we got rid of Brown who comes in? If their form drops off who comes in?

 

[Tommy Magpie]

Stupid idea, Brown when fully fit is still in the best 22. If Frost or Keeffe get injured and we got rid of Brown who comes in? If their form drops off who comes in?

Stupid idea? I'll have my thoughts, you have yours.

And what if they don't get injured? What if their form doesn't drop off? Brown just sits in the 2's all year?

Your argument works the other way too, mate. Ridiculous example.

 

[DaVe86]

Small guys don't get pushed off the ball look at Blair, it is short guys who are weak like a Elijia Edwards who would get pushed off the ball. People are getting carried away with the idea that you need a tall midfield because last year Freo was one of the best sides and they had a tall mids

I think you need a variety of everything. You need some grunt. All the good sides have big bodied mids and the real top end talent in the drafts are currently 185cm plus.

All I'm saying is that even if you played 8 of the top 10 I listed, you have a lot of the same sized and type player. They are all pretty quick and none take a back-step, but there is no substitute for a few guys with real size to go in and exert influence.

I have no doubt this was a serious consideration for the recruiters in the off-season. Hine made comment that we brought in Karnezis due to the need to adjust our height dynamic. It would have also been a telling factor why we went Scharenberg over Aish. We also took Marsh and Langdon late in the draft to address this issue.

You need talls, smalls and mid-sizers. If you have too many talls you become slow. If you have too many smalls you become too easy to push over. If you have too many big bodied midfielders you become slow.

I have no doubt at all we need a few more mid-sized players on the list and a few less smalls.

 

[DaVe86]

That's why its important to have a stand alone VFL team so players keep pushing for spots, if you are not playing AFL then you better be ripping it up in VFL.

I agree with this. Depth is essential.

But the argument is that some guys are simply too good to leave in the VFL. You can cash in on their value before it is too late.

On the flip side, teams like Hawthorn and Geelong have shown that you don't need to rush your kids in. It took a lot of their players 2-3 years of solid VFL footy to break into the side. Therefore, guys like Kennedy and Adams may just have to keep their heads and wait their chance.

 

[Seedsfan]

Stupid idea? I'll have my thoughts, you have yours.

And what if they don't get injured? What if their form doesn't drop off? Brown just sits in the 2's all year?

Your argument works the other way too, mate. Ridiculous example.

So we are just going to bank on to guys who have had injury trouble in the past and who are both very inexperienced?

 

[PepperFace]

Stupid idea? I'll have my thoughts, you have yours.

And what if they don't get injured? What if their form doesn't drop off? Brown just sits in the 2's all year?

Your argument works the other way too, mate. Ridiculous example.

Exactly. And as a football club you sometimes have to make big calls. Would it be worth having Nathan Brown play in the 2nds or would it be worth taking a first round draft pick for him if it was offered? With our forward line shaping up well with White, I am of the thinking that Ried plays down back anyway....so we have Frost, Keeffe, Brown and Ried as options for KDP.

 

[Tommy Magpie]

So we are just going to bank on to guys who have had injury trouble in the past and who are both very inexperienced?

Remember Ben Reid? Not a bad option if something goes astray.

 

[dubber]

I agree with this. Depth is essential.

But the argument is that some guys are simply too good to leave in the VFL. You can cash in on their value before it is too late.

On the flip side, teams like Hawthorn and Geelong have shown that you don't need to rush your kids in. It took a lot of their players 2-3 years of solid VFL footy to break into the side. Therefore, guys like Kennedy and Adams may just have to keep their heads and wait their chance.

Out of the list you posted i can only think of Marley and Adams as being too good to play VFL & that is based on todays form. If their form drops off or they cop an injury then you have others to step up. I am excluding the Sideys and Elliots as they are locked in for best 22.

Ben Ken needs to do more to warrant senior selection which is very healthy IMO. Unless he wants to be traded at the end of his contract i think we need to give him the time to add some strings to his game.

 

[Tommy Magpie]

Exactly. And as a football club you sometimes have to make big calls. Would it be worth having Nathan Brown play in the 2nds or would it be worth taking a first round draft pick for him if it was offered? With our forward line shaping up well with White, I am of the thinking that Ried plays down back anyway....so we have Frost, Keeffe, Brown and Ried as options for KDP.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Pep

 

[Seedsfan]

I think you need a variety of everything. You need some grunt. All the good sides have big bodied mids and the real top end talent in the drafts are currently 185cm plus.

All I'm saying is that even if you played 8 of the top 10 I listed, you have a lot of the same sized and type player. They are all pretty quick and none take a back-step, but there is no substitute for a few guys with real size to go in and exert influence.

I have no doubt this was a serious consideration for the recruiters in the off-season. Hine made comment that we brought in Karnezis due to the need to adjust our height dynamic. It would have also been a telling factor why we went Scharenberg over Aish. We also took Marsh and Langdon late in the draft to address this issue.

You need talls, smalls and mid-sizers. If you have too many talls you become slow. If you have too many smalls you become too easy to push over. If you have too many big bodied midfielders you become slow.

I have no doubt at all we need a few more mid-sized players on the list and a few less smalls.

We have enough taller options on our list and they are not getting a game for one reason or another, most peoples logic behind taller mids is that they can be a marking presence around the ground. But look at Elliot he is short but can still drag down a mark. I think you just need to pick the best footballers and if that guy is short then so be it

 

[Seedsfan]

Remember Ben Reid? Not a bad option if something goes astray.

The same Ben Reid Bucks wants to use as a forward, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. We don't have depth in the KPP we need to hold on to Brown, other then that we have Marsh but Hine talks about him becoming a mid there is also Gault who is always injured and Lynch who will be retired by the end of the year

 

[MeisterBot]

I agree with this. Depth is essential.

But the argument is that some guys are simply too good to leave in the VFL. You can cash in on their value before it is too late.

On the flip side, teams like Hawthorn and Geelong have shown that you don't need to rush your kids in. It took a lot of their players 2-3 years of solid VFL footy to break into the side. Therefore, guys like Kennedy and Adams may just have to keep their heads and wait their chance.

This is true, Mitch Hallahan had to win a Liston before even debuting for Hawthorn. As long as all the players are on the same page, I have no issue with them spending large periods of time in the VFL to develop.

Personally, I'd keep Brown for next year at the very least. He's apart of the leadership group, well liked, and very loyal. Trading him because we've got a <10 gamer rookie doing well is ridiculous. While Reid can play back, I'm sure plan A is to have him in the forward line. With Maxwell on his last legs, there's scope for one of Frost/Keeffe/Brown to play in the same team.

I think Brown reads the play very well. Much better than he's given credit for.

It's just that as a shut down player, his instinct is to negate first and his decision making under pressure and kicking skills aren't great. In open space, he's reasonable though. There was a play on Saturday where he switched the play and it led to a cracking goal.

I'd actually look to reinvent him as a Gibson/Maxwell type third tall. His closing speed was one of his main assets in his draft year, but bulking up and playing him at FB has kind of negated that since he always plays from behind. Play him FB in the VFL, but with a mind to peel off his man, go third up and rebound. See how he goes.

To be honest, we could do this with Reid as well but the idea of trading away Brown just because we don't want him to lose trade value seems really shortsighted. Is there a specific player or need we can fill by trading him out? Or are we just going to throw him away because he "has value". At least we've stopped talking about trading Sidebottom (for the moment).

 

[Tommy Magpie]

The same Ben Reid Bucks wants to use as a forward, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. We don't have depth in the KPP we need to hold on to Brown, other then that we have Marsh but Hine talks about him becoming a mid there is also Gault who is always injured and Lynch who will be retired by the end of the year

So, in hindsight, in the type of example you put to me...

What if Frost and Keeffe don't lose form and remain sound? Brown plays alllllllllll year in the magoos and loses a truckload of value?

 

[PepperFace]

The same Ben Reid Bucks wants to use as a forward, you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. We don't have depth in the KPP we need to hold on to Brown, other then that we have Marsh but Hine talks about him becoming a mid there is also Gault who is always injured and Lynch who will be retired by the end of the year

I dont think an AA CHB is a bad option to put in the backline

 

[PepperFace]

I think that this is a good thing that there is even an arguement where to put the KPP. With Darcy Moore to come next year (I realise he will take a few seasons to bulk up) its good signs ahead.

Better than the essendon situation with argueing if carlise is a defender or forward and wishing they could have crameri still playing!

 

[Seedsfan]

This is true, Mitch Hallahan had to win a Liston before even debuting for Hawthorn. As long as all the players are on the same page, I have no issue with them spending large periods of time in the VFL to develop.

Personally, I'd keep Brown for next year at the very least. He's apart of the leadership group, well liked, and very loyal. Trading him because we've got a <10 gamer rookie doing well is ridiculous. While Reid can play back, I'm sure plan A is to have him in the forward line. With Maxwell on his last legs, there's scope for one of Frost/Keeffe/Brown to play in the same team.

I think Brown reads the play very well. Much better than he's given credit for.

It's just that as a shut down player, his instinct is to negate first and his decision making under pressure and kicking skills aren't great. In open space, he's reasonable though. There was a play on Saturday where he switched the play and it led to a cracking goal.

I'd actually look to reinvent him as a Gibson/Maxwell type third tall. His closing speed was one of his main assets in his draft year, but bulking up and playing him at FB has kind of negated that since he always plays from behind. Play him FB in the VFL, but with a mind to peel off his man, go third up and rebound. See how he goes.

I would prefer Frost to play that role as that is more his natural game to use his pace to run and create off the backline.

I dont think an AA CHB is a bad option to put in the backline

Reid will play forward as Bucks wants three tall forwards our list is not at the stage we can afford to trade Brown. Think back to 2010 people were thinking why are we trading in Taz Brown and Reid look so good down their next thing you know Brown has done his ACL

 

[Jonno94]

Frost and Keeffe have a history of knee injuries, Brown wont be traded. He is still our 1st choice defender when in form, it's silly to write him off this early and coming back from his shoulder injury.