List Mgmt. List Management Thread

[Cromulant]

Especially when we had no spots up for grabs in the ones with Laird, Milera, Hinge and Smith all ahead of him in the pecking order.

Could and should have picked him over Smith.

 

[119others]

He played really well, and im happy for him but I am also wary that we played a St Kilda midfield who would rank even below us on the midfield ladder.

He isnt the first young kid, nor will he be the last to have to wait his turn. Clubs arent suddenly going to come for him after 1 good week, or we'd throw a bucket of cash Angus Andersons way and get him back to SA.

i agree with this. over the years theres been so many calls for youngsters to be brought in earlier than they ultimately did. some were delayed by weeks or months (edwards) to even possibly a year or so (tex and worrell). others like nank have been in and out of the side when fans demanded he play.

now i am not saying crows coaching gets everything right - clearly they dont and i support looking at poaching one of the elite coaches THIS year IF nicks doesnt at least win a 'real' finals game - hard to get C Scott, Fagan, Hardwick, Clarkson or Mitchell I imagine but Simpson and Longmire look excellent proven options and perhaps even mc rae is a chance imo) but with decades of collective experience in the coaching box (snr coach, assistants, murray davis, godden) and supporting footy staff (balme, dan jackson) i am just not convinced that anyone outside of the walls at west lakes - inc anonymous footy fans like us - actually know better than those inside the club. as ive mentioned before my sister in law was a club psychologist under craig and said outsiders know shit about whats really happening even if they want to guess and assume they know best.

the above examples

• tex has often said craigys 'tough love' early on made him the player he is (if he plays on next year thats a likely top 20 VFL/AFL footballer goal kicker of all time) ie it worked
• worrell - was always a slow burn and has admitted he needed to learn discipline and higher professional standards (training standards, dui etc). the fact he is now effectively the best third tall defender in the league shows our strategy ultimately worked - even if he could possibly have played a few months earlier ie it worked and has another 6-7 years with us
• edwards - see worrell. a slow burn. making him work hard for it and when he comes in he thrives. no issue saying he could have debuted a few weeks earlier this year but in the big picture its immaterial. the club has developed him very well and looks afl ready from day one (which he clearly wasnt year one and lots of last year, esp considering our greatest ever minor round season)
• nank - not played for different reasons. he is currently a marginal player and the hordes supporting him i believe have misjudged his football talent

you can look at edwards and assume the club sucks as it delayed by (likely only weeks) when he should have debuted or congratulate the club for excellent development and bringing in players when they are substantially ready. playing curtin and jones immediately in year one led to form and confidence issues. draper somewhat similar.

the club doesnt always suck as much as you imagine. was perusing a previous thread when a well known poster mentioned late 2024 how we had completely stuffed our rebuild and needed to start again...sometimes just let things play out

 

[119others]

I don't think they have enough to...
McClug, Dunkley, WAshcroft, Allen, Draper, Andrews all on big or very big money
Wilmot, Morris, LAshcroft, Fletcher, Coleman Lohmann, Rayner all on decent money or very soon to be decent/big money

even marshall, first round pick in 2024 andflag winner is being courted from vic clubs as he hasnt played this year. like doedee has played only one game last year and none this year AFTER overcoming his big injuries. cc on big bikkies, bailey would be relatively high $ already. zorko still demanding good $. berry, lester etc etc players also

so lots of hungry mouths to feed. no wonder fagan came out complaining about inflation with players salaries haha. clearly they dont want that as wont be able to keep a LOT of their guns. ah chee, starcevich and likely bailey could be just the start

 

[Mutineer]

i agree with this. over the years theres been so many calls for youngsters to be brought in earlier than they ultimately did. some were delayed by weeks or months (edwards) to even possibly a year or so (tex and worrell). others like nank have been in and out of the side when fans demanded he play.

now i am not saying crows coaching gets everything right - clearly they dont and i support looking at poaching one of the elite coaches THIS year IF nicks doesnt at least win a 'real' finals game - hard to get C Scott, Fagan, Hardwick, Clarkson or Mitchell I imagine but Simpson and Longmire look excellent proven options and perhaps even mc rae is a chance imo) but with decades of collective experience in the coaching box (snr coach, assistants, murray davis, godden) and supporting footy staff (balme, dan jackson) i am just not convinced that anyone outside of the walls at west lakes - inc anonymous footy fans like us - actually know better than those inside the club. as ive mentioned before my sister in law was a club psychologist under craig and said outsiders know shit about whats really happening even if they want to guess and assume they know best.

the above examples

• tex has often said craigys 'tough love' early on made him the player he is (if he plays on next year thats a likely top 20 VFL/AFL footballer goal kicker of all time) ie it worked
• worrell - was always a slow burn and has admitted he needed to learn discipline and higher professional standards (training standards, dui etc). the fact he is now effectively the best third tall defender in the league shows our strategy ultimately worked - even if he could possibly have played a few months earlier ie it worked and has another 6-7 years with us
• edwards - see worrell. a slow burn. making him work hard for it and when he comes in he thrives. no issue saying he could have debuted a few weeks earlier this year but in the big picture its immaterial. the club has developed him very well and looks afl ready from day one (which he clearly wasnt year one and lots of last year, esp considering our greatest ever minor round season)
• nank - not played for different reasons. he is currently a marginal player and the hordes supporting him i believe have misjudged his football talent

you can look at edwards and assume the club sucks as it delayed by (likely only weeks) when he should have debuted or congratulate the club for excellent development and bringing in players when they are substantially ready. playing curtin and jones immediately in year one led to form and confidence issues. draper somewhat similar.

the club doesnt always suck as much as you imagine. was perusing a previous thread when a well known poster mentioned late 2024 how we had completely stuffed our rebuild and needed to start again...sometimes just let things play out

Charlie was drafted as a midfielder according to Hamish so why are top ups played in the midfield at SANFL level ahead of lads drafted as mids where they can further hone their midfield skills. Especially given our midfield has been considered a weakness in our AFL team?

 

[119others]

Charlie was drafted as a midfielder according to Hamish so why are top ups played in the midfield at SANFL level ahead of lads drafted as mids where they can further hone their midfield skills. Especially given our midfield has been considered a weakness in our AFL team?

not sure why. its a reasonable point posters have made re this

how have you seen our player development OVERALL bicks? as negative as most?

 

[Soggy2112]

yes but the likely outcome of them matching is bailey then staying. and they ultimately dont want that AT THAT PRICE

they are playing a VERY dangerous game offering to stump up 4m above what they really want to pay, or can afford to pay, whilst assuming crows will then offer strong draft picks as compensation. i doubt we would. the reason you offer 10m over 7 years is you are getting an asset free from a trade collateral perspective. no way crows offer 10m over 7 AND also look after the lions in a trade - which would be roughly 2 first round draft picks - no chance of it happening

I disagree.

We’re not going to offer that much money at this stage in our rebuild to then not put up a couple what will hopefully be late first round picks.

 

[Fud#3]

It's amazing that we saw a guy with Edwards' frame, his ability to read off hands at stoppages, his burst from congestion

Plus a slightly iffy ball drop

And our thought was "Half Back Flank"

I think the issue was he wasn't getting much of it early last year as an inside mid, so moved him to HB to get more of the ball, build his confidence and move back into the midfield.

This seems to be the new way midfield kids are being developed, play them outside to get more ball before going inside. McKercher, Daicos, Langford, Lashcroft, Reid, Jye Clark, FOS, Philippou, Sanders, etc

Yes, these are all in the 1s, but Pou, Sanders, FOS, etc have all done it a VFL level

 

[Mutineer]

not sure why. its a reasonable point posters have made re this

how have you seen our player development OVERALL bicks? as negative as most?

Below average for about the last decade.

Definitely a reluctance to blood young players early on, sure there are exceptions like Worrell who had difficulties with what was expected of an AFL player in his preparation and recovery but in the main quite a few have been held back even when the incumbents in the AFL team aren't exactly shooting the lights out. Take Oscar Ryan clearly his first season was way superior to anything he's shown since.

 

[Fud#3]

yes but the likely outcome of them matching is bailey then staying. and they ultimately dont want that AT THAT PRICE

they are playing a VERY dangerous game offering to stump up 4m above what they really want to pay, or can afford to pay, whilst assuming crows will then offer strong draft picks as compensation. i doubt we would. the reason you offer 10m over 7 years is you are getting an asset free from a trade collateral perspective. no way crows offer 10m over 7 AND also look after the lions in a trade - which would be roughly 2 first round draft picks - no chance of it happening

Agree. If we know Bris will match, our offer will be moved to something like $6m over 2 years, then see if Bris match that.

 

[119others]

I disagree.

We’re not going to offer that much money at this stage in our rebuild to then not put up a couple what will hopefully be late first round picks.

ok mate, lets agree to disagree as i dont think theres any prospect we pay overs for salary AND need to stump up a couple of first rounders. especially when i know we are going to go hard again at NWM next year - we will be keeping future firsts up our sleeve

 

[119others]

Agree. If we know Bris will match, our offer will be moved to something like $6m over 2 years, then see if Bris match that.

yeah i cant see us possibly handing over first rounders along with the big bucks. you pay the big bucks so you dont need to trade for them

what you have proposed is what lions did with daniher as per the discussion on here recently. i am not totally sure if that loophole has been changed though as conflicting reports - ie smoothing out his salary over an extended contract once he joins us

 

[cmndstab]

It's amazing that we saw a guy with Edwards' frame, his ability to read off hands at stoppages, his burst from congestion

Plus a slightly iffy ball drop

And our thought was "Half Back Flank"

It's the same thought process that saw us start Curtin as a key defender. I'm pretty sure our coaching staff just saw 191cm and said "well he's a half back, isn't he?"

 

[Fud#3]

Below average for about the last decade.

Definitely a reluctance to blood young players early on, sure there are exceptions like Worrell who had difficulties with what was expected of an AFL player in his preparation and recovery but in the main quite a few have been held back even when the incumbents in the AFL team aren't exactly shooting the lights out. Take Oscar Ryan clearly his first season was way superior to anything he's shown since.

What about the development of Soligo, Berry, Curtin, Rachele, McAndrew, Max, Thilthorpe, Cook, Bond?

I'd say we've developed relatively well. Not everyone can play 1s each week, but there's guys who aren't pushing for selection just yet for sure (Ryan, Draper, Sholl, Nank), but the majority of u23s are looking pretty good IMO.

 

[Cromulant]

It's the same thought process that saw us start Curtin as a key defender. I'm pretty sure our coaching staff just saw 191cm and said "well he's a half back, isn't he?"

Which is odd given he spent his first year on the list as a midfielder.

 

[Fud#3]

It's the same thought process that saw us start Curtin as a key defender. I'm pretty sure our coaching staff just saw 191cm and said "well he's a half back, isn't he?"

Pretty sure the coaching staff saw 197cm guy who played most of his u18 as a kpd and though 3rd defender who would eventually move to the mids

 

[Mutineer]

I think the issue was he wasn't getting much of it early last year as an inside mid, so moved him to HB to get more of the ball, build his confidence and move back into the midfield.

This seems to be the new way midfield kids are being developed, play them outside to get more ball before going inside. McKercher, Daicos, Langford, Lashcroft, Reid, Jye Clark, FOS, Philippou, Sanders, etc

Yes, these are all in the 1s, but Pou, Sanders, FOS, etc have all done it a VFL level

Just a 'slight' class difference in the midfield groups of most of the clubs and the players you mention there, even North Melbourne have had a pretty decent midfield group..

 

[Fud#3]

yeah i cant see us possibly handing over first rounders along with the big bucks. you pay the big bucks so you dont need to trade for them

what you have proposed is what lions did with daniher as per the discussion on here recently. i am not totally sure if that loophole has been changed though as conflicting reports - ie smoothing out his salary over an extended contract once he joins us

The initial contract has to stand, so $3m would go into our/Bris cap in 27 and 28 in that scenario.

 

[Play On Advantage]

I think the issue was he wasn't getting much of it early last year as an inside mid, so moved him to HB to get more of the ball, build his confidence and move back into the midfield.

This seems to be the new way midfield kids are being developed, play them outside to get more ball before going inside. McKercher, Daicos, Langford, Lashcroft, Reid, Jye Clark, FOS, Philippou, Sanders, etc

Yes, these are all in the 1s, but Pou, Sanders, FOS, etc have all done it a VFL level

Completely agree with this.

It would have been nice to have exposed Charlie to a couple games last year to give him a sense of the level to aim for over the offseason. Andy Otten talked about how the 2 games at the back end of his first season set him up so well.

Cheddar playing HB was clearly part of his development arc and designed to improve facets of his game that needed work. Look at Brayden Cook this preseason spent most of the time in the back 6 to improve parts of his game and now he is performing at a much higher level across the ground. Does this happen if he trains as a wing or forward all summer? Maybe, maybe not but his contested work and confidence at both finding and using the footy is at an all-time high and looks like he won't drop out of the best 22 again if he keeps this form.

Rounding out a player's skillset does not mean always playing them in the position you hope they make their own. This is exactly how the reserves should be used.

 

[Mutineer]

It's the same thought process that saw us start Curtin as a key defender. I'm pretty sure our coaching staff just saw 191cm and said "well he's a half back, isn't he?"

Well Hamish certainly didn't think that if you listen to his interviews regards the players post having drafted them.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

It's amazing that we saw a guy with Edwards' frame, his ability to read off hands at stoppages, his burst from congestion

Plus a slightly iffy ball drop

And our thought was "Half Back Flank"

Almost the opposite to Dawson who is a supreme kicker when in space but an average footballer in the packs.

 

[ABAB]

I think the issue was he wasn't getting much of it early last year as an inside mid, so moved him to HB to get more of the ball, build his confidence and move back into the midfield.

This seems to be the new way midfield kids are being developed, play them outside to get more ball before going inside. McKercher, Daicos, Langford, Lashcroft, Reid, Jye Clark, FOS, Philippou, Sanders, etc

Yes, these are all in the 1s, but Pou, Sanders, FOS, etc have all done it a VFL level

Edwards development was very good in 2024 as midfielder, Murphy was banished to the SANFL last year and they played him in the midfield in place of Edwards.

 

[ABAB]

It's the same thought process that saw us start Curtin as a key defender. I'm pretty sure our coaching staff just saw 191cm and said "well he's a half back, isn't he?"

I recall them saying they drafted Curtin as a midfielder, it was only Nicks who said he didn't know where to play him so played him as a defender in the AFL against Brisbane and he got smashed by a then unknown Morris who has turned out to be an A grade forward.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Does the club need to employ an 'expert outsider' who follows the club very closely but from outside the four walls. There just seems to be such a conservative group think from the football department. Needs to be some blunt truths, or at least questions, coming from the outside.

Now, there would definitely be things the outsider would not be privy too that would explain certain decisions/selections but where is the voice going:

• wtf are we shooting ourselves in the foot with this game plan we can't execute with this squad and it's running counter to the emerging style
• wtf are we selecting Jones, Murphy, McHenry etc etc instead of guys with far higher ceiling
• wtf do we shit the bed by going defensive so early every time we have the lead
• wtf are our top-ups taking most of the midfield spots in the SANFL

Could go on for pages but where is the critical voice of reason that can overcome the group think? Not that it will always be right of course but who challenges this stuff? Is it simply that the buck stops with Nicks anyway and that's the problem?

 

[119others]

Does the club need to employ an 'expert outsider' who follows the club very closely but from outside the four walls. There just seems to be such a conservative group think from the football department. Needs to be some blunt truths, or at least questions, coming from the outside.

Now, there would definitely be things the outsider would not be privy too that would explain certain decisions/selections but where is the voice going:

• wtf are we shooting ourselves in the foot with this game plan we can't execute with this squad and it's running counter to the emerging style
• wtf are we selecting Jones, Murphy, McHenry etc etc instead of guys with far higher ceiling
• wtf do we shit the bed by going defensive so early every time we have the lead
• wtf are our top-ups taking most of the midfield spots in the SANFL

Could go on for pages but where is the critical voice of reason that can overcome the group think? Not that it will always be right of course but who challenges this stuff? Is it simply that the buck stops with Nicks anyway and that's the problem?

Yep, its all doom and gloom. Let me bring some sunshine into your day here mate:

So the AFL calls in Crows Executives over summer asking how we have effectively executed the near-perfect complete rebuild which has set us up for years to come. They havent asked any other club this question. One of the longer premiership windows I can recall lasting well into next decade.

We have gone and poached many of the best in the business - Burgess (for many years - as long as he lasts anywhere) and then a highly regarded replacement to compliment our leading weights guy. Plus Balme, Gallagher, Murray Davis, Dan Jackson and Shane Edwards to an already experienced coaching panel.

Then bring in the best recruits, or very close to, in our history over a few yr period - Dawson, Rankine, ANB, Peatling (beating 6-7 other teams for this non SA boys signature), Cumming, Ah Chee and clear front runners for Bailey. Many adding both leadership AND finals success (shrewd choices)

Drafted as many young guns as we have had since our inception - TT, Rash, Soli, Max, Curtin, Draper and more

Picked up NUMEROUS freebies that are good to excellent players - Keane, Murray, Mc Andrew, Hinge, Keays and more (inc Cottons potential)

All these combined have seen our list management close to league best this decade WHILST retaining all key players. CULTURE

We have a linear improvement 'model rebuild' with the 2024 year the one exception.

We win 18 games last year and have our GREATEST ever minor round in our history before underwhelming finals (injuries/suspensions to 3 of our 5 most elite players), finals inexperience, a horrendous flu going thru the club impacting BOTH finals weeks, and yes a degree of finals choking

So you understand all of the above seemingly but only perceive negatives, or certainly a distinct lack of reasoned balanced. Seriously, I dont just get the mindset of so many on here.

Lots of good times are coming over the next 5-7 years. Please just be open to actually enjoying it

 

[fossilllCrow]

Yep, its all doom and gloom. Let me bring some sunshine into your day here mate:

So the AFL calls in Crows Executives over summer asking how we have effectively executed the near-perfect complete rebuild which has set us up for years to come. They havent asked any other club this question. One of the longer premiership windows I can recall lasting well into next decade.

We have gone and poached many of the best in the business - Burgess (for many years - as long as he lasts anywhere) and then a highly regarded replacement to compliment our leading weights guy. Plus Balme, Gallagher, Murray Davis, Dan Jackson and Shane Edwards to an already experienced coaching panel.

Then bring in the best recruits, or very close to, in our history over a few yr period - Dawson, Rankine, ANB, Peatling (beating 6-7 other teams for this non SA boys signature), Cumming, Ah Chee and clear front runners for Bailey. Many adding both leadership AND finals success (shrewd choices)

Drafted as many young guns as we have had since our inception - TT, Rash, Soli, Max, Curtin, Draper and more

Picked up NUMEROUS freebies that are good to excellent players - Keane, Murray, Mc Andrew, Hinge, Keays and more (inc Cottons potential)

All these combined have seen our list management close to league best this decade WHILST retaining all key players. CULTURE

We have a linear improvement 'model rebuild' with the 2024 year the one exception.

We win 18 games last year and have our GREATEST ever minor round in our history before underwhelming finals (injuries/suspensions to 3 of our 5 most elite players), finals inexperience, a horrendous flu going thru the club impacting BOTH finals weeks, and yes a degree of finals choking

So you understand all of the above seemingly but only perceive negatives, or certainly a distinct lack of reasoned balanced. Seriously, I dont just get the mindset of so many on here.

Lots of good times are coming over the next 5-7 years. Please just be open to actually enjoying it

Well said!!!