Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

rbartlett

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Okay Folks.
Spreadsheet is complete.
We have 72 entries from Feb 2020 - Feb 2021.

Can I make a suggestion moving forward.
Once you have posted all your research on a particular subject, can you make a simple entry at the bottom of the final post summarising what the change is.
It will just make it easier when I put it on the spreadsheet.
Ie: ( Summary: John Smith loses Rd 1 1764, and Peter Smith played Rd 1 1764)
 

rbartlett

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A query about Frank McCashney
Wiki has him as Francis James McCashney born Trentham
Screen Shot 2021-03-05 at 9.30.58 pm.png


But shouldnt it be the other way around - James Francis McCashney, as per BDM, and they have him born Blue Mountain
Screen Shot 2021-03-05 at 9.31.58 pm.png
 
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35Daicos

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The player who the records have as Jim Coucher really should be Jim Cowcher.

This change has now been made on Collingwood Forever (he played for Collingwood in the VFA, and later with Carlton in the VFL):
1615178696582.png


Jim Coucher - Wikipedia
1615178795723.png


Here's his death notice(s):
1615179158476.png

1615179245042.png

His wife's:
1615179386558.png

His wife's probate:
1615179565072.png

1615179639695.png

Just about anywhere you look it's almost always Cowcher (instead of Coucher), so it seems clear it needs to be changed in the game's records.

Summary: Jim Coucher (Carlton 1898) should be renamed Jim Cowcher.
 
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Oliver G

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Don't believe this has been mentioned before but Russell Greene's jumper number in 1974 has been incorrectly listed as #35 instead of #29.

This came to us directly from Russell who has also confirmed it with Col H. It checks out as Paul Callery is also listed as #35 in the 1974 season. Russell would then move to #6 in 1975 and then move back to #29 from 1976 which he would keep until retiring.

AF has been updated with the change but Tables still needs to be updated *Paul* .

Summary: Russell Greene wore number 29 in 1974, not 35.
 

ThePope

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Jim Read, 76 games for St Kilda. Back in 2010 a random user changed his DOB on wikipedia from the AFL approved 26 Dec 1943 to 22 Dec.
He died last year, and the webcast of the funeral service is online (inc photo of him playing for St Kilda at 31:30). The opening photo lists his birthday as 22nd.
Please advise the AFL & Oliver Gigacz & *Paul* to update.
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1616292169446.png
 
Jul 26, 2014
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Hi all - long time between posts for me... :)

Jock Menzies played four games for St Kilda in 1913

Official AFL records identify him as:
Full name: John McDermott Loxton Menzies
Date of birth: 23 November 1889
Place of birth: Brighton, Victoria
Date of death: 15 May 1972 (aged 82)

John McDermott Loxton Menzies served in World War I, enlisting in February 1916 – see https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/293523 and this is reflected in sources such as Barb Cullen’s book “Harder than Football” and the St Kilda website (https://www.saints.com.au/news/772208/former-saint-honoured-in-anzac-match)

However, in reading http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article91166889 it is clear that the Jock Menzies who played for Port Melbourne and St Kilda had enlisted much earlier than February 1916.

The newspaper article gives his parents address as Stokes St, Port Melbourne and a search of World War I records yields this John Menzies as the true identity of the footballer. He served in the 14th Battalion at Gallipoli (being injured on 3/5/1915, 8 days after the initial landing)

Correct birth and death details from BDM/service record/Ancestry are:
Parents: Andrew Constable Menzies and Wilhelmina Menzies (nee Smith)
Full name: John Menzies
Date of birth: 31 October 1887
Place of birth: Port Melbourne, Victoria
Date of death: 14 May 1967 (aged 79)
Place of death: Essendon, Victoria
Gravesite: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/182662118/john-menzies

note: the Port Melbourne Historical and Preservation Society clearly discovered this before me – see https://portmelbfirstworldwar100.org.au/menzies-john-753/

Summary: Update records to reflect details for the correct John Menzies.
 

35Daicos

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Jim Read, 76 games for St Kilda. Back in 2010 a random user changed his DOB on wikipedia from the AFL approved 26 Dec 1943 to 22 Dec.
He died last year, and the webcast of the funeral service is online (inc photo of him playing for St Kilda at 31:30). The opening photo lists his birthday as 22nd.
Please advise the AFL & Oliver Gigacz & *Paul* to update.
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View attachment 1082370
It's interesting to note that while an earlier edition (1998, I think it is) of The Encyclopedia had 26 Dec 1943 for Jim L. Read's DOB the latest three (at least) editions have 23 Dec 1943. So still not quite matching the one shown above, but I wonder what prompted them to make that change.
 
Jul 26, 2014
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Wally Mitchell played two games for Fitzroy in 1933.

There is very little in match reports or the Football Record that definitively identifies the player – I could not find where the “Wally” came from - but based off published DOB/DOD, AFL Encyclopedia, Harder Than Football etc he can be identified as

Walter Mitchell, son of William Mitchell and Alice Virginia Wilson
Date of birth 18 June 1908
Place of birth Ballarat East, Victoria
Date of death 8 February 1974 (aged 65)
Place of death Cheltenham, Victoria

From 1930-1940, Walter is listed in electoral rolls as living with his parents in Russell Street in the city

However, I came across this article which lists a W. A. Mitchell as moving from Fitzroy to Sandringham at the start of the 1934 season. (Note: there are no other “Mitchells” that played with Fitzroy senior team from the 1920’s to the 1960s)

This article identifies Mitchell from Fitzroy as being tried on Sandringham’s half-back line in Round 2 of 1934

In 1939 the annual meeting of Sandringham Football Club reports that W. Mitchell, vice-captain, was presented with a five years’ service certificate, and this article indicates that their vice captain was “Bill Mitchell”. He was later awarded a life membership of the club.

The VFA Project has the Sandringham player as Bill Mitchell (note: I think they have mis-identified 1935 players and he did actually play most games that season)

My view is that there was one player who played for both Fitzroy and Sandringham and that he was a William rather than Walter.

My current guess is he might be:

William Alfred Mitchell, son of William Ernest Mitchell and Flora Louisa Watkins
Date of birth 22 April 1912
Place of birth Carlton North, Victoria
Date of death 31 October 1982 (aged 70)
Place of death Heidelberg, Victoria

...but he lived in Clifton Hill for the whole of the 1930s so this guess may not be correct as he was playing for Sandringham for much of this period. Anyone else fancy trying to identify the correct person?
 

rbartlett

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Has there been some strange change to accessing Newspapers.com
When I try to click into any Age newspaper in 1974 I get this message, despite having already logged in with our username
Anyone else get this message when you try to read the Age
Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 9.39.32 pm.png
 

35Daicos

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Has there been some strange change to accessing Newspapers.com
When I try to click into any Age newspaper in 1974 I get this message, despite having already logged in with our username
Anyone else get this message when you try to read the AgeView attachment 1100185
I get it as well. I think the subscription has run out (possibly on April 8), and it simply needs to be renewed.

Gibbsy

Edit: Yes, it ran out on the 9th according to the subscription details on the site.
 
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rbartlett

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I get it as well. I think the subscription has run out (possibly on April 8), and it simply needs to be renewed.

Gibbsy

Edit: Yes, it ran out on the 9th according to the subscription details on the site.

Oh at least its not some other issue.
I'll wait til Gibbsy renews it and we can subscribe again through the BF Direct Message
 

35Daicos

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Wally Mitchell played two games for Fitzroy in 1933.

There is very little in match reports or the Football Record that definitively identifies the player – I could not find where the “Wally” came from - but based off published DOB/DOD, AFL Encyclopedia, Harder Than Football etc he can be identified as

Walter Mitchell, son of William Mitchell and Alice Virginia Wilson
Date of birth 18 June 1908
Place of birth Ballarat East, Victoria
Date of death 8 February 1974 (aged 65)
Place of death Cheltenham, Victoria

From 1930-1940, Walter is listed in electoral rolls as living with his parents in Russell Street in the city

However, I came across this article which lists a W. A. Mitchell as moving from Fitzroy to Sandringham at the start of the 1934 season. (Note: there are no other “Mitchells” that played with Fitzroy senior team from the 1920’s to the 1960s)

This article identifies Mitchell from Fitzroy as being tried on Sandringham’s half-back line in Round 2 of 1934

In 1939 the annual meeting of Sandringham Football Club reports that W. Mitchell, vice-captain, was presented with a five years’ service certificate, and this article indicates that their vice captain was “Bill Mitchell”. He was later awarded a life membership of the club.

The VFA Project has the Sandringham player as Bill Mitchell (note: I think they have mis-identified 1935 players and he did actually play most games that season)

My view is that there was one player who played for both Fitzroy and Sandringham and that he was a William rather than Walter.

My current guess is he might be:

William Alfred Mitchell, son of William Ernest Mitchell and Flora Louisa Watkins
Date of birth 22 April 1912
Place of birth Carlton North, Victoria
Date of death 31 October 1982 (aged 70)
Place of death Heidelberg, Victoria

...but he lived in Clifton Hill for the whole of the 1930s so this guess may not be correct as he was playing for Sandringham for much of this period. Anyone else fancy trying to identify the correct person?
This is in the 1933 Rd. 1 Football Record:
1618146195759.png

1618146611376.png


The Argus (as well as The Age) has him as W. A. Mitchell in 1934:
1618146258517.png


1618148082604.png


1618148275802.png

There's a Fitzroy 1933 squad photo on Boyles: Fitzroy Team Photos | Boyles Football Photos
1618148554438.png

I think that bloke looks a fair bit like him!
1618151670048.png

This has him playing at Sandringham from 1934 onwards, which is another match.

This has William Alfred living (with his wife) at Fitzroy North in 1934:
1618153478846.png


1618154507034.png


William Alfred had four daughters, all born before he enlisted, according to his Army records:
1618155133412.png

I can't find the birth in the paper (or on Ancestry), but if William Alfred had a daughter born 16 June 1937 that would settle the issue.

1618157995590.png
 
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Jul 26, 2014
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William Alfred had four daughters, all born before he enlisted, according to his Army records:
View attachment 1100315
I can't find the birth in the paper (or on Ancestry), but if William Alfred had a daughter born 16 June 1937 that would settle the issue.
Pretty sure I now have this...
The girls are likely to be listed in order of birth, with Valerie the oldest
From this baby photo article Kathleen was born before October 1936 (probably late 1935/early 1936)

There are only three "Margot Susan"'s in Vic electoral roll records - with surnames Tarrant, Templer and Gravenall
Margot Susan Gravenall died in 2018 and this memorial site has her DOB as 17 Jun 1937 - one day out but seems a pretty good confirmation to me.... can easily believe either the original article in 1937 or the memorial site are one day out.
 

35Daicos

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Pretty sure I now have this...
The girls are likely to be listed in order of birth, with Valerie the oldest
From this baby photo article Kathleen was born before October 1936 (probably late 1935/early 1936)

There are only three "Margot Susan"'s in Vic electoral roll records - with surnames Tarrant, Templer and Gravenall
Margot Susan Gravenall died in 2018 and this memorial site has her DOB as 17 Jun 1937 - one day out but seems a pretty good confirmation to me.... can easily believe either the original article in 1937 or the memorial site are one day out.
Yes, Margot Susan Gravenall is one of the daughters. Her name appears in the father's Army records, as she wrote requesting that she be able to receive his medals. I thought it most likely that it was either her or Barbara who would have been the one born in 1937, as looking at when the other two got married they would have been only c. 18 and 14 at the time of marriage if they had been born in 1937.
1618311312313.png


Great work!
 
Jul 26, 2014
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Ray Whelan played one game for Hawthorn in 1945.

Based off published DOB/DOD, AFL Encyclopedia, Harder Than Football etc he can be identified as

Name: Raymond Edward James Whelan, son of Edward James Whelan and Ada Murray
Date of birth: 4 November 1921
Place of birth: Adelaide, South Australia
Date of death: 24 December 2002 (aged 81)
Place of death: South Australia

Raymond Edward James Whelan was a footballer who played with Sturt – see https://sturtfc.com.au/history/the-players/# and he served in the Australian Army in World War II - see https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=735017&c=WW2

However, various articles (e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206870063) show that the R. Whelan who played for Hawthorn was from the R.A.A.F. (not the Army) and the Sturt footballer played for Sturt on the same day he is credited with his single game for Hawthorn. (note: from the Sturt FC player list linked above there was only one Whelan who played for Sturt in the 1940s)

First reference I can find to Whelan at Hawthorn is late May 1945 and this article on 1 Jun says he played with Hawthorn reserves several years earlier.

List of R. Whelans that served in the R.A.A.F. during WWII is:


[TD valign="bottom"] Name [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Service Number [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Birth [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Place of Birth [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Service [/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, REGINALD PERCY[/TD][TD valign="top"]128710[/TD][TD valign="top"]23 Nov 1902[/TD][TD valign="top"]SWANREACH, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROY FREDERICK[/TD][TD valign="top"]53154[/TD][TD valign="top"]25 Sep 1914[/TD][TD valign="top"]SOUTH MELBOURNE, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RUSSELL[/TD][TD valign="top"]10406[/TD][TD valign="top"]01 Dec 1914[/TD][TD valign="top"]MELBOURNE, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROBERT[/TD][TD valign="top"]79264[/TD][TD valign="top"]12 Mar 1919[/TD][TD valign="top"]MARYBOROUGH, QLD[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RONALD ERIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]29571[/TD][TD valign="top"]15 Sep 1920[/TD][TD valign="top"]GERALDTON, WA[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROSS[/TD][TD valign="top"]129545[/TD][TD valign="top"]26 May 1921[/TD][TD valign="top"]WONTHAGGI, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROY BERTRAM[/TD][TD valign="top"]55427[/TD][TD valign="top"]31 Mar 1924[/TD][TD valign="top"]MORWELL, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, REGINALD LEONARD[/TD][TD valign="top"]439243[/TD][TD valign="top"]01 Dec 1925[/TD][TD valign="top"]BRUNSWICK, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RICHARD DANIEL[/TD][TD valign="top"]151885[/TD][TD valign="top"]17 Mar 1926[/TD][TD valign="top"]BRISBANE, QLD[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

This article shows Russell Whelan as a 6ft 2 in follower training at North Melbourne earlier in 1945 so he seems a likely candidate. He got a permit to North from Warragul in May 1945 but is not credited with a senior game for them. Perhaps he didn't make the final list and switched across to Hawthorn?
 

35Daicos

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Ray Whelan played one game for Hawthorn in 1945.

Based off published DOB/DOD, AFL Encyclopedia, Harder Than Football etc he can be identified as

Name: Raymond Edward James Whelan, son of Edward James Whelan and Ada Murray
Date of birth: 4 November 1921
Place of birth: Adelaide, South Australia
Date of death: 24 December 2002 (aged 81)
Place of death: South Australia

Raymond Edward James Whelan was a footballer who played with Sturt – see https://sturtfc.com.au/history/the-players/# and he served in the Australian Army in World War II - see https://nominal-rolls.dva.gov.au/veteran?id=735017&c=WW2

However, various articles (e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206870063) show that the R. Whelan who played for Hawthorn was from the R.A.A.F. (not the Army) and the Sturt footballer played for Sturt on the same day he is credited with his single game for Hawthorn. (note: from the Sturt FC player list linked above there was only one Whelan who played for Sturt in the 1940s)

First reference I can find to Whelan at Hawthorn is late May 1945 and this article on 1 Jun says he played with Hawthorn reserves several years earlier.

List of R. Whelans that served in the R.A.A.F. during WWII is:


[TD valign="bottom"] Name [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Service Number [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Birth [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Place of Birth [/TD][TD valign="bottom"] Service [/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, REGINALD PERCY[/TD][TD valign="top"]128710[/TD][TD valign="top"]23 Nov 1902[/TD][TD valign="top"]SWANREACH, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROY FREDERICK[/TD][TD valign="top"]53154[/TD][TD valign="top"]25 Sep 1914[/TD][TD valign="top"]SOUTH MELBOURNE, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RUSSELL[/TD][TD valign="top"]10406[/TD][TD valign="top"]01 Dec 1914[/TD][TD valign="top"]MELBOURNE, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROBERT[/TD][TD valign="top"]79264[/TD][TD valign="top"]12 Mar 1919[/TD][TD valign="top"]MARYBOROUGH, QLD[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RONALD ERIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]29571[/TD][TD valign="top"]15 Sep 1920[/TD][TD valign="top"]GERALDTON, WA[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROSS[/TD][TD valign="top"]129545[/TD][TD valign="top"]26 May 1921[/TD][TD valign="top"]WONTHAGGI, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, ROY BERTRAM[/TD][TD valign="top"]55427[/TD][TD valign="top"]31 Mar 1924[/TD][TD valign="top"]MORWELL, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, REGINALD LEONARD[/TD][TD valign="top"]439243[/TD][TD valign="top"]01 Dec 1925[/TD][TD valign="top"]BRUNSWICK, VIC[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

[TD valign="top"]WHELAN, RICHARD DANIEL[/TD][TD valign="top"]151885[/TD][TD valign="top"]17 Mar 1926[/TD][TD valign="top"]BRISBANE, QLD[/TD][TD valign="top"]RAAF[/TD]

This article shows Russell Whelan as a 6ft 2 in follower training at North Melbourne earlier in 1945 so he seems a likely candidate. He got a permit to North from Warragul in May 1945 but is not credited with a senior game for them. Perhaps he didn't make the final list and switched across to Hawthorn?
It looks like Russell will be the man. This is way back in 1938, but fits in with the player having played for the Hawthorn reserves years earlier. His height is also a match for the chap who was at North early in 1945: 17 Mar 1938 - BIG MEN SIGNED. - Trove (nla.gov.au)
1618822386997.png


1618822894237.png


He was named in the Hawthorn seconds team here:
1618829385010.png


1618829477732.png

Maybe he never got that permit to North, and went back to his old club? He was named to play for North seconds 5 May: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204027453

1618822545622.png

1618822598824.png


1618823803148.png

This should be him (he does look tall!):
1618824655458.png

From Ancestry:
1618824970862.png

1618824771142.png


From NSW BDM:
1618825346564.png

At 30 he was getting on a bit, but it seems very likely he will be the player.

The Sturt player is pictured here FWIW!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129987380
Perhaps ironically (given that he didn't actually play that one VFL game he's credited with playing) he's standing next to L. G. Giles, the "Jack" Giles who did play one VFL game (for Richmond in 1943)!
 
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stemline

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FWIW I have an R.Whelan kicking 8 goals and getting in the best players once for Hawthorn's Reserves in 1934, which kinda fits with that 'Hawthorn's Acquisitions' article above.

Out of interest, what happens with this from here?
 

35Daicos

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FWIW I have an R.Whelan kicking 8 goals and getting in the best players once for Hawthorn's Reserves in 1934, which kinda fits with that 'Hawthorn's Acquisitions' article above.

Out of interest, what happens with this from here?
There was an M. Whelan at Hawthorn at that time as well:
1618830972799.png

There's a decent chance that it was his brother:
1618830999282.png
 

rbartlett

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Wally Mitchell played two games for Fitzroy in 1933.

William Alfred Mitchell, son of William Ernest Mitchell and Flora Louisa Watkins
Date of birth 22 April 1912
Place of birth Carlton North, Victoria
Date of death 31 October 1982 (aged 70)
Place of death Heidelberg, Victoria

...but he lived in Clifton Hill for the whole of the 1930s so this guess may not be correct as he was playing for Sandringham for much of this period. Anyone else fancy trying to identify the correct person?

So is this paragraph above, the summary for the William "Wally" Mitchell entry onto the spreadsheet?
 
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