Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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the croucher said:
I'm also wondering if the one 't' spelling of surname might be him. Many of the press reports of his time at Williamstown do indeed spell his name as J Paterson.

Good clue with that marriage reference in the 6 June 1936 paper....
Click to expand...
Yes - the Patterson/Paterson mixed naming makes things tricky.
I've been trying to trace his wife who played tennis and found http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162546331 which refers to Mrs Mena Paterson.

This suggests possibility of John Southey Paterson, born 27 May 1908 in Ballarat East, Victoria (BMD rego under Patasson!) who married Hermena Louisa Rose Faber in 1936. They lived in South Melbourne until the 1950s and this corresponds with this article from 1939 which says "He (Jack Paterson) lives at South Melbourne and likes living there as much as he likes playing for 'Town."
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Yes - the Patterson/Paterson mixed naming makes things tricky.
I've been trying to trace his wife who played tennis and found http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162546331 which refers to Mrs Mena Paterson.

This suggests possibility of John Southey Paterson, born 27 May 1908 in Ballarat East, Victoria (BMD rego under Patasson!) who married Hermena Louisa Rose Faber in 1936. They lived in South Melbourne until the 1950s and this corresponds with this article from 1939 which says "He (Jack Paterson) lives at South Melbourne and likes living there as much as he likes playing for 'Town."
Click to expand...

Excellent. I think we could be close to settling this.

Both Jack and Mena's respective fathers died in 1949 in South Melbourne and various death notices identify John/Jack and Mena as their children.

Ancestry trees give a DOD for John Southey Paterson as 29 December 1987, but Find A Grave ref alerts that this could be date of burial. The Vic BDMs number is 296/1988. As the AFL apparently has such good connections at the BDMs office perhaps the exact date of death could be checked by them, once we've confirmed that we believe this is the player we are looking for.
 
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Another team list problem I think.

The Fitzroy list for 1905 Rnd 4 match vs Carlton includes Les Sharp

Australian Football - Match Details: 1905 R4 Carlton vs Fitzroy

australianfootball.com australianfootball.com

A search of Trove newspapers suggests it should be J "Jim" Sharp included, and Les removed.

Both the team list and match description in The Herald issue on evening of match show J Sharp/Jim Sharp
trove.nla.gov.au

THE LEAGUE. - CARLTON V, FITZROY FITZROY WINS. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 27 May 1905

It was left to the Fitzroy and Carlton teams to fight off for premiership honors last year, and that battle is still fresh in the minds of the 32,668 people who ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

The Australasian review of the match also refers to J Sharp[e] specifically:
trove.nla.gov.au

FOOTBALL NOTES. - PLAY THE BALL. - The Australasian (Melbourne, Vic. : 1864 - 1946) - 3 Jun 1905

A month ago, when we had seen some of the opening league games, we were filled with pleasureable anticipations of a brilliant and glorious season. But, so far, ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
 

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WhiteHartLane23 said:
Jack Patterson played for South Melbourne (1931), North Melbourne (1932-36) and then Williamstown (1937-40).

Currently recorded as having date of birth 28 May 1911 and date of death 27 October 1994.
The player has been mis-identified and current DOB/DOD in football sources are incorrect.

The VFL/VFA footballer Jack Patterson
Click to expand...
Summary: Update identity of player Jack Patterson (SM/NM/Will) to be John Southey (Jack) Paterson, born 27 May 1908 in Ballarat, Victoria, died December 1987 (exact date tbc, buried 29 Dec 1987) - note surname should be Paterson with one t
 
^ Great work, and a very good outcome!
The player can also be seen in this 1939 Williamstown team photo on Boyles' site: Williamstown Team Photos | Boyles Football Photos
1625905126724.png
It really seems odd to me that in a case like this a relative hasn't looked him up in the (football) records, noticed they had the wrong person, and come forward with the right information!

Boyles site has a page for the Williamstown player but they have him confused with a Jack Paterson who played for Geelong quite a few years earlier: Jack Paterson b1900 | Boyles Football Photos
Reference_ 1939 VFA Grand Final - Winning Team (Williamstown) | Boyles Football Photos
 
Update for the various copies of the Melbourne honour board I think, both online, and in print e.g. the AFL Season Guide.

1913 has Alf George listed as sole official captain for the year, but I've just noticed today that the VFL Record Rnd 8 1913 on page 30:
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/141928
has note that George had resigned and Joe Pearce appointed club captain.

A match report in The Herald soon after has the team list showing Pearce as captain, and George as a player.
trove.nla.gov.au

MELBOURNE V. UNIVERSITY. - VISITORS SECURE LEAD. MELBOURNE WIN. - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 28 Jun 1913

Melbourne and University met on the Melbourne ground. There was only moderate attendance. The ground was in excellent condition. ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: amend Melbourne honour roll/board to show club captain for 1913 as
Alf George
Joe Pearce
 
the croucher said:
The coaching career figures for Jack Dyer (Richmond) and Alec Albiston (Hawthorn) need amending.
Round 13 match 1949 between those two clubs did not have the named people as coach of each respective team.

Both JD and AA were in Sydney playing for Victoria vs NSW !!

trove.nla.gov.au

[?]ONS ON TOP IN [?] AIR, RUCK - By CYRIL NOTT - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1949

trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

trove.nla.gov.au

Poor Rules umpiring helps NSW, but Victoria scores easy victory - The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) - 17 Jul 1949

VICTORIA gave a polished exhibition of short-passing, long kicking and safe marking easily to defeat NSW in the Australian Rules code game at the Sydney Cricket Ground yesterday. ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au


Haven't yet found who were "caretaker coaches."
Click to expand...
Some news on this one -

For Hawthorn, Neil Pearson was fill-in captain for this game as per match reports. His brother, Ian, who also played for Hawthorn was at the club today and confirmed that Neil did in fact captain AND coach Hawthorn for that game.

Which I think makes him Hawthorn's youngest ever coach.
 
stemline said:
Some news on this one -

For Hawthorn, Neil Pearson was fill-in captain for this game as per match reports. His brother, Ian, who also played for Hawthorn was at the club today and confirmed that Neil did in fact captain AND coach Hawthorn for that game.

Which I think makes him Hawthorn's youngest ever coach.
Click to expand...
Still no confirmation as to who would have replaced Dyer as coach on that round.
 
rbartlett said:
Still no confirmation as to who would have replaced Dyer as coach on that round.
Click to expand...

Unfortunate that so far we don't have a name to replace Dyer, but I also think we've reached the point where records need to be updated anyway.
We know that Dyer and Albiston did not coach that round, therefore their names need to be removed and coaching career totals reduced by one.

Looks like Neil Pearson fills in for Hawthorn, and the Richmond space for coach either says unknown or is left blank.

Have just had a look at the State Lib of Vic catalogue and can see at least a couple of "local" Richmond newspapers for the post-WW2 period. Not sure if they're only in hard copy in off-site storage, or might be in the reading room on microfilm.
 
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Well I imagine this'll be one of the more unusual amendments requested:

The Collingwood team list for Rnd 13 1940 match at Geelong should have two players shown as wearing the same number.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1940 R13 Geelong vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com australianfootball.com

Pannam usually wore #20 but on the journey to Geelong some tea was spilled on his guernsey, and he had to borrow Powell's spare jumper.
Pannam and Powell both wore #22 in the match. Also begs the question - where was Pannam's spare ?

trove.nla.gov.au

Talking About Game And Players - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 24 Jul 1940

PLAYING one of the greatest games of his career, Arthur Olliver, Foot scary’s blonde six-footer, fully deserved the sporting Globe’s vote as the best ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

trove.nla.gov.au

HIGHLIGHTS OF GAMES - LEAGUE - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 22 Jul 1940

Rarely sighted earlier in the match, Wartman on the wing and Fischer in the ruck became match winners when Melbourne was striving for the lead in ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

trove.nla.gov.au

Did You See..? - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Jul 1940

Hawkins (umpire) stop with his head a ball punted strongly by Skinner in the second quarter at Fitzroy, and the anxious looks on players' faces as Hawkins ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1940 VFL season Round 13 Geelong vs Collingwood - amend Collingwood guernsey numbers in team list to show Pannam and Powell both wearing #22
 
the croucher said:
Well I imagine this'll be one of the more unusual amendments requested:

The Collingwood team list for Rnd 13 1940 match at Geelong should have two players shown as wearing the same number.

Australian Football - Match Details: 1940 R13 Geelong vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com australianfootball.com

Pannam usually wore #20 but on the journey to Geelong some tea was spilled on his guernsey, and he had to borrow Powell's spare jumper.
Pannam and Powell both wore #22 in the match. Also begs the question - where was Pannam's spare ?

trove.nla.gov.au

Talking About Game And Players - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 24 Jul 1940

PLAYING one of the greatest games of his career, Arthur Olliver, Foot scary’s blonde six-footer, fully deserved the sporting Globe’s vote as the best ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

trove.nla.gov.au

HIGHLIGHTS OF GAMES - LEAGUE - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 22 Jul 1940

Rarely sighted earlier in the match, Wartman on the wing and Fischer in the ruck became match winners when Melbourne was striving for the lead in ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

trove.nla.gov.au

Did You See..? - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 22 Jul 1940

Hawkins (umpire) stop with his head a ball punted strongly by Skinner in the second quarter at Fitzroy, and the anxious looks on players' faces as Hawkins ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1940 VFL season Round 13 Geelong vs Collingwood - amend Collingwood guernsey numbers in team list to show Pannam and Powell both wearing #22
Click to expand...
It looks like they were probably aware of that on the old AFL Historical Statistics site:- Club Player Lists - Collingwood 1940:
1626272432553.png
It is shown correctly on Collingwood Forever: 1940: Geelong vs Collingwood (Round 13) | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)
1626272472326.png
 
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The official records have Frank Williams playing 5 games for St Kilda in 1910: Frank Williams (Australian footballer, born 1884) - Wikipedia
1626896255096.png

This is the person the records have in mind:
1626896630382.png
1626896685724.png
1626896809023.png

This player went from Victoria to WA in June 1906:
1626898358892.png

He was known as Bendigo Lily when playing for James FC:
1626897551094.png
This refers to the player from James FC trying out with West Perth in 1908:
1626899404854.png

1626901254333.png

Here he is heading back home to Bendigo (not Maffra) from West Perth in late-July 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76785872
1626896363889.png

There's plenty of references in the papers to the St Kilda player being from West Perth (or just Perth), so most likely he went from Bendigo to Melbourne early in 1910.
1626841654582.png
Collingwood Forever has Frank Williams playing 2 games for Collingwood District in July 1911, soon after F. B. Williams joined that club from St Kilda. It would surely have to be the player who had the stint in WA, so Frank B. Williams, not Frank W. Williams.

This chap is my strong favourite!:
1626894248139.png
1626894354722.png
There's a Frank Baker Williams living at Bendigo a few years later, and seemingly for some time after that:
1626895450650.png
1626895498277.png

There's also someone with that name living in Melbourne at about the right time:
1626894793009.png
Once again, this is a rather long-winded post from me, so sorry about that, but what we are doing here is bloody serious stuff, and I don't mind taking my time with it, and trying to provide as much information as possible!! While I'm almost certain the person who the official records have as the 1910 St Kilda player (Frank Wall Williams) isn't the right chap, I'm not 100% convinced I have it right either (though I probably have!). So if anyone wants to jump in and assist, please do!
 
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ThePope said:
Frank B Williams was buried at Fawkner on 2 June 1980, New Lawn Area East, Section A, Row J, Grave 8, but no actual DOD that I can find.
Just the same Fawkner details on FindAGrave. Nothing on Billiongraves. Nothing on Ryerson. Nothing in Google Newspapers.
Click to expand...

A number of family trees on Ancestry give the Williams DOD as 30 May 1980,
and a number of Ancestry trees for Allan James Wilson (who has next Vic death reg number after FB Williams)
give his DOD as 31 May 1980.
 
Last edited:
35Daicos said:
The official records have Frank Williams playing 5 games for St Kilda in 1910: Frank Williams (Australian footballer, born 1884) - Wikipedia
View attachment 1183410

This is the person the records have in mind:
View attachment 1183412
View attachment 1183413
View attachment 1183414

This player went from Victoria to WA in June 1906:
View attachment 1183424

He was known as Bendigo Lily when playing for James FC:
View attachment 1183421
This refers to the player from James FC trying out with West Perth in 1908:
View attachment 1183428

View attachment 1183439

Here he is heading back home to Bendigo (not Maffra) from West Perth in late-July 1909: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76785872
View attachment 1183411

There's plenty of references in the papers to the St Kilda player being from West Perth (or just Perth), so most likely he went from Bendigo to Melbourne early in 1910.
View attachment 1182967
Collingwood Forever has Frank Williams playing 2 games for Collingwood District in July 1911, soon after F. B. Williams joined that club from St Kilda. It would surely have to be the player who had the stint in WA, so Frank B. Williams, not Frank W. Williams.

This chap is my strong favourite!:
View attachment 1183394
View attachment 1183395
There's a Frank Baker Williams living at Bendigo a few years later, and seemingly for some time after that:
View attachment 1183406
View attachment 1183408

There's also someone with that name living in Melbourne at about the right time:
View attachment 1183405
Once again, this is a rather long-winded post from me, so sorry about that, but what we are doing here is bloody serious stuff, and I don't mind taking my time with it, and trying to provide as much information as possible!! While I'm almost certain the person who the official records have as the 1910 St Kilda player (Frank Wall Williams) isn't the right chap, I'm not 100% convinced I have it right either (though I probably have!). So if anyone wants to jump in and assist, please do!
Click to expand...

Well done on this, tremendous work !
Cannot think at the moment of any other resource that is going to help more than what has been done so far.

FB Williams would have been too young (i e under 21 voting age) to appear on any WA electoral roll, whereas FW Williams always appears to be in Maffra area even in some of the earliest 1900s ones in Vic, so yes, I think we should probably lodge a summary update for FWW to become FBW (1890-1980).

If the AFL have such wonderful links at Vic BDMs office, then they can double-check on DOB & DOD exactness.
 
Graeme Pinfold (Melb/Preston) is listed as living in wikipedia/australianfootball.com/demonwiki

However he died way back - on 17 December 1986
Clearly Melbourne FC knew about this at the time - death notice from the club in The Age on 24 Dec 1986

Full name was Arthur Graeme Pinfold
Born in Sea Lake (according to death registry entry in Vic BDM)
Died in West Melbourne (Vic BDM)
Cremated at Springvale Cemetery
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Graeme Pinfold (Melb/Preston) is listed as living in wikipedia/australianfootball.com/demonwiki

However he died way back - on 17 December 1986
Clearly Melbourne FC knew about this at the time - death notice from the club in The Age on 24 Dec 1986

Full name was Arthur Graeme Pinfold
Born in Sea Lake (according to death registry entry in Vic BDM)
Died in West Melbourne (Vic BDM)
Cremated at Springvale Cemetery
Click to expand...
Demonwiki has a different DOB for him (than what Wikipedia has): Demonwiki | Graham Pinfold
1627008892001.png
AustralianFootball.com also has 24 April: Australian Football - Graeme Pinfold - Player Bio
AFL Tables as well: AFL Tables - Graeme Pinfold - Stats - Statistics
In fact that's what the AFL records had (and possibly still have):
1627009492678.png

It's 20 April on Wikipedia, and here as well: Adrienne Esther Pinfold 1939 - 2008 BillionGraves Record
1627009130871.png
Not sure who is correct ATM, but this^ should be! Why/when was it changed on Wikipedia? The Encyclopedia has the 20th, and had that in the edition that came out in 2011.
 
"Max" Pitchford seems to have been misnamed in football records

He was Lewis McComb "Mac" Pitchford, born in Mornington (Snapper Point) and died in Hobart
Trove search for him gives 35 results on "Mac Pitchford" and 20 results as "Max Pitchford" and one as "Mick Pitchford"
Clearly the slightly unusual name caused problems for journalists but he clearly should be Mac rather than Max
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
"Max" Pitchford seems to have been misnamed in football records

He was Lewis McComb "Mac" Pitchford, born in Mornington (Snapper Point) and died in Hobart
Trove search for him gives 35 results on "Mac Pitchford" and 20 results as "Max Pitchford" and one as "Mick Pitchford"
Clearly the slightly unusual name caused problems for journalists but he clearly should be Mac rather than Max
Click to expand...
Yes, seems logical move to me too, even as a young boy he was known as Mac:
trove.nla.gov.au

Mornington Methodist Sunday School. - CONCERT AND DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZES. - Mornington Standard (Frankston, Vic. : 1911 - 1920) - 26 Jul 1913

A plendid programme was submitted by the scholars and teachers of the Mornington Methodist Sunday School on Friday evening last ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
 
the croucher said:
Yes, seems logical move to me too, even as a young boy he was known as Mac:
trove.nla.gov.au

Mornington Methodist Sunday School. - CONCERT AND DISTRIBUTION OF PRIZES. - Mornington Standard (Frankston, Vic. : 1911 - 1920) - 26 Jul 1913

A plendid programme was submitted by the scholars and teachers of the Mornington Methodist Sunday School on Friday evening last ...
trove.nla.gov.au trove.nla.gov.au
Click to expand...
Also his death date seems to a year out - his grave shows death was 1969 rather than 1968

Summary: Change Max Pitchford (NM) to be known as Mac Pitchford with date of death 25 July 1969
 
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