Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Graeme Pinfold (Melb/Preston) is listed as living in wikipedia/australianfootball.com/demonwiki

However he died way back - on 17 December 1986
Clearly Melbourne FC knew about this at the time - death notice from the club in The Age on 24 Dec 1986

Full name was Arthur Graeme Pinfold
Born in Sea Lake (according to death registry entry in Vic BDM)
Died in West Melbourne (Vic BDM)
Cremated at Springvale Cemetery
Thank you, now altered in Demonwiki - as well as his name. Newspapers of the day called him 'Graham' but I have amended the page to match his birth name pending any great revelation that he was registered under the name Graham out of personal preference.
 

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rbartlett

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More of an fyi.
Got my hands on full match of Geel v Coll 1992 at Waverley Rd 10.
Ablett kicks a cracking goal in 1st quarter that McKenna says is his 550th.
When he lines up for his 2nd goal later in the game they remind everyone he kicked his 550th in the first.

But Footy Record of Rd 10 shows that he already had 550 goals coming into that game.
Its most likely a commentator error - despite saying it a few times thru the broadcast
Screen Shot 2021-08-03 at 6.00.42 pm.png
 

Connor7395

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Number correction.

Ian Muller went out for Carlton in Round 5, 1985, wearing the number 60 instead of the 29 listed on AFL Tables and Australianfootball.


According to the Army Reserve Cup teams from Round 9's Record, Muller was wearing 29. However, Muller seems to have worn 29 before according to the Reserve Cup team list from Round 7, 1984's Record.

Lou Richards mentions that he wasn't included in the Record, so it's possible he was an eleventh hour inclusion and Muller didn't have his jumper on standby, so they tossed him one of the spares.
 

35Daicos

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Number correction.

Ian Muller went out for Carlton in Round 5, 1985, wearing the number 60 instead of the 29 listed on AFL Tables and Australianfootball.


According to the Army Reserve Cup teams from Round 9's Record, Muller was wearing 29. However, Muller seems to have worn 29 before according to the Reserve Cup team list from Round 7, 1984's Record.

Lou Richards mentions that he wasn't included in the Record, so it's possible he was an eleventh hour inclusion and Muller didn't have his jumper on standby, so they tossed him one of the spares.
From The Age:
1627981114837.png

1627981146099.png

1627981183986.png
 

WhiteHartLane23

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Albert Leslie "Mick" Price (Carlton) is listed as having died on 19 November 1973 (australianfootball.com, blueseum)

The Age death notices from 17 November show actual death date was 15 November 1973
1628316376639.png


19 November was his burial date at Melbourne General Cemetery
1628316508728.png


...and his record at Find a Grave is also incorrect - wrong date and name mixed up with that of his father - Albert Edward Price

Summary: Update date of death for Albert Leslie "Mick" Price from 19 November 1973 to 15 November 1973
 

the croucher

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ThePope

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Maybe missed by some...
 

Ron The Bear

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Querying the official tally of 153 games for Syd Coventry as captain of Collingwood that is cited in various places including the AFL Record Season Guide. This would include the 144 games where he was official captain for seasons 1927-34, but also implies he led the side in the 9 games in 1925-26 where Charlie Tyson was absent.

Happy with the four 1926 games R14-17 as Coventry is listed in Football Record as vice-captain; however in 1925 the Record lists Harry Saunders as vc in multiple editions throughout the season. Tyson was absent in 1925 R3 and R7-10; Saunders missed R3 but played in R7-10. Should Coventry's tally be revised to 149 games, with Saunders credited with R7-10?

Further to this, does anyone have a definitive list of captains for each match and team?
 

35Daicos

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Querying the official tally of 153 games for Syd Coventry as captain of Collingwood that is cited in various places including the AFL Record Season Guide. This would include the 144 games where he was official captain for seasons 1927-34, but also implies he led the side in the 9 games in 1925-26 where Charlie Tyson was absent.

Happy with the four 1926 games R14-17 as Coventry is listed in Football Record as vice-captain; however in 1925 the Record lists Harry Saunders as vc in multiple editions throughout the season. Tyson was absent in 1925 R3 and R7-10; Saunders missed R3 but played in R7-10. Should Coventry's tally be revised to 149 games, with Saunders credited with R7-10?

Further to this, does anyone have a definitive list of captains for each match and team?
This is for the 1925 Rd. 7 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244044987
1631754669307.png

It's rather confusing as it names S. Coventry as captain in the line-up, but then says that Saunders did the job! Coventry was named in The Herald line-up as captain in the Rd. 3 game.
No captain is indicated for the Rd. 8 game: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244046687
Same for Rd. 9: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244046687
And Rd. 10: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244041543

This is what the Sporting Globe has for the Rd. 7 game!!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184822130
1631756342445.png


For the Rd. 8-10 games no captain is indicated:
20 Jun 1925 - Collingwood Gets Home by 14 Points - Trove (nla.gov.au)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184822702 (this one's very hard to read, but probably has nothing)

I can't see anything on the Collingwood Forever site that helps with this.
It does have this (which matches the official tally): Games Records | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)
1631763048459.png


Edit: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244037140
1631762838760.png

1631762883380.png

This^ is from the Rd. 8 game.

Rd. 9: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244037630
1631763332669.png

1631763362265.png


Rd. 10: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244035449
1631763474384.png

1631763503759.png


The corresponding section covering the Rd. 7 game doesn't have anything from the Collingwood captain (presumably because we lost that one!).

It does look to be extremely likely that Saunders did captain the side for those four games, and most likely the (c) alongside Coventry's name for the Rd. 7 game was simply a mistake, but perhaps one that caused the "authorities" to believe he did the job for that game and to assume he kept the job for the following three games.
 
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35Daicos

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Querying the official tally of 153 games for Syd Coventry as captain of Collingwood that is cited in various places including the AFL Record Season Guide. This would include the 144 games where he was official captain for seasons 1927-34, but also implies he led the side in the 9 games in 1925-26 where Charlie Tyson was absent.

Happy with the four 1926 games R14-17 as Coventry is listed in Football Record as vice-captain; however in 1925 the Record lists Harry Saunders as vc in multiple editions throughout the season. Tyson was absent in 1925 R3 and R7-10; Saunders missed R3 but played in R7-10. Should Coventry's tally be revised to 149 games, with Saunders credited with R7-10?

Further to this, does anyone have a definitive list of captains for each match and team?
Thanks a lot for posting that. I've passed it on to the Collingwood club historian. He agrees that it appears likely that the records have it wrong, and will raise the issue with the AFL folks.
 

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John K. Cooper (Hawthorn player 1956-57) has a different DOB on wikipedia to everywhere else.

Football sites have 20/04/1935
Wikipedia has 21/04/1933

The wiki entry must have been altered at some point as it still has '1935 births' as a category at the bottom.

Also it was announced at the HFC B&F tonight that he has passed away, but no date given.

Edit - just found this https://tributes.bordermail.com.au/...s.bordermail.com.au/obituaries/bordermail-au/

Which has the DOD, but has yet another DOB, and then down the bottom it has the wiki DOB, but a different DOD.

Another edit - someone's updated wiki in the last few hours, perhaps after reading this, changed his DOB again, and selected one of the two DOD. Who knows if official or not.
 
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Ron The Bear

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1934 Brownlow query

Round by round votes published by Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10970259/562380#

Suggests the following changes are required to figures published in e.g. Peter Blair's History of the Brownlow Medal and at australianfootball.com

Jim Francis (Ca) 5 votes (+1) 2,1,2
Jack Collins (Ge) 4 votes (+2) 2,2
Clive Coles (Ge) 1 vote (-2) 1
Bob Green (Ca) 0 votes (-1)
 

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1933 Brownlow Votes are also amiss -

Age and Argus articles align, but using them gives different player totals to those on AFL Tables

It appears a lot of the 1 & 3 votes have been switched around - for Hawthorn players at least, I haven't checked the rest yet.
 
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Ron The Bear

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1933 Brownlow Votes are also amiss -

Age and Argus articles align, but using them gives different player totals to those on AFL Tables
Made an enquiry with *Paul* yesterday after seeing match voting for 1931-34 in his player records. He kindly supplied his source data while warning that the votes from his source didn't add up correctly. I found that by adding the missing Round 2 Ca v Ha Stewart 3 Gill 2 Spinks 1 and Round 7 Ge v SM Hickey 3 Clarke 2 Pratt 1, as per Argus, the individual votes for 1933 tallied as expected.

Note that e.g.

1933 example.jpg


denotes Beveridge 3 votes, Hughson 2 and Collier 1.

Does anyone have a link for 1931 & 1932? I was unable to find the match voting on Trove.
 
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35Daicos

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John K. Cooper (Hawthorn player 1956-57) has a different DOB on wikipedia to everywhere else.

Football sites have 20/04/1935
Wikipedia has 21/04/1933

The wiki entry must have been altered at some point as it still has '1935 births' as a category at the bottom.

Also it was announced at the HFC B&F tonight that he has passed away, but no date given.

Edit - just found this https://tributes.bordermail.com.au/...s.bordermail.com.au/obituaries/bordermail-au/

Which has the DOD, but has yet another DOB, and then down the bottom it has the wiki DOB, but a different DOD.

Another edit - someone's updated wiki in the last few hours, perhaps after reading this, changed his DOB again, and selected one of the two DOD. Who knows if official or not.
I can see just the one 'tree' on Ancestry for him and it has this:
1631848095559.png

It's pretty certain that the 'tree maker' (Derek Cooper) would be the son of John Kenneth, and he really should have those dates correct.

However, this is interesting!:
1631850754006.png
 

Ron The Bear

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Regarding the 1931 Brownlow, *Paul* supplied me with an "updated" source which, after adding missing votes for R4 Geddes Ri 3, Rumney Co 2, H.Collier Co 1, produced a balanced result (6 votes for each of 102 voting matches) and suggests the following alterations to accepted tallies:

6 Hec McKay (SM) - updated to 4 Hec McKay, 2 Roy McKay (Fo)
2 Colin Niven (Fi) - updated to 2 Ray Niven (Fi)
3 Len Hooke (NM) - updated to 3 Harold Hooke (NM)
3 Bernie O'Brien (Ca) - updated to 3 Wally O'Brien (Fo)

The last difference is most convincing as the Wally O'Brien voting match has no connection to Bernie O'Brien.

Maybe Paul can post a link to the original source here (if he has it) so that these differences can be verified.

Paul aslo supplied an updated source for 1932 votes, however many gaps remain in this one.

Edit: source https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/18955283

Clearly lists W.O'Brien with the 3 in R14, and less clearly lists R.Niven with the 2 in R7. Also clearly lists "L.Hook" with the 3 in R13, although Len didn't play between R7-15 (Harold did).

For the McKays, a 3 and a 1 are allotted to "McKay (SM)", but the other 2 simply says "McKay". Hec is mentioned often in The Age match report, while Roy is only mentioned once at the end as part of the solid defence.
 
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Ron The Bear

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1932 Brownlow - bit of a nightmare and I'm not sure it can ever be properly unscrambled.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/19047407

missing votes 1 x 3, 3 x 2
votes awarded to "Coventry" 3 x 3, 1 x 2, 1 x 1 and "Strang" 1 x 3, 2 x 2
votes awarded to players who clearly did not play! (Diggins R3, Ryan R16)

Blair has apportioned the Coventry and Strang votes, and also the missing votes somehow (R1 Mills Ha 3, R2 Pratt SM 2, R2 Smallhorn Fi 2, R15 Judkins Ri 2). His total vote tally is correct apart from a missing 1 to Alan Ryan (Me) R10 which is clearly shown in The Age.

He appears to have split the Coventry/Strang votes as follows, perhaps based on match reports:

R1 Gordon Coventry 2, R4 Syd 3, R6 Gordon 3, R12 Gordon 1, R17 Syd 3
R6 Gordon Strang 2, R9 Doug 2, R10 Gordon 3

Or perhaps these were clarified at the time with the officiating umpires?

Brighton Diggins didn't commence his VFL career until R7 - perhaps fellow West Australian Bert Beard who was described as a standout on debut wore Diggins' #17 that day? (Beard is listed as #18 that year.) Jack/John Ryan is listed as playing only in R4-5 that year.
 
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35Daicos

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1932 Brownlow - bit of a nightmare and I'm not sure it can ever be properly unscrambled.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/19047407

missing votes 1 x 3, 3 x 2
votes awarded to "Coventry" 2 x 3, 1 x 2, 1 x 1 and "Strang" 1 x 3, 2 x 2
votes awarded to players who clearly did not play! (Diggins R3, Ryan R16)

Blair has apportioned the Coventry and Strang votes, and also the missing votes somehow (R1 Mills Ha 3, R2 Pratt SM 2, R2 Smallhorn Fi 2, R15 Judkins Ri 2). His total vote tally is correct apart from a missing 1 to Alan Ryan (Me) R10 which is clearly shown in The Age.

He appears to have split the Coventry/Strang votes as follows, perhaps based on match reports:

R1 Gordon Coventry 2, R6 Syd 3, R12 Gordon 1, R17 Syd 3
R6 Gordon Strang 2, R9 Doug 2, R10 Gordon 3

Or perhaps these were clarified at the time with the officiating umpires?

Brighton Diggins didn't commence his VFL career until R7 - perhaps fellow West Australian Bert Beard who was described as a standout on debut wore Diggins' #17 that day? (Beard is listed as #18 that year.) Jack/John Ryan is listed as playing only in R4-5 that year.
It looks like Beard was in the #18, which probably buggers up a rather decent theory!:
1631935295661.png

It sure sounds like he deserved a vote or two!
 

35Daicos

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It's been confirmed today that the 1921 Collingwood player who has been known in AFL records as Harry Lloyd is now to be known as Reg. This change has been accepted by the AFL folks.

His page/bio on Collingwood Forever has been updated to reflect the change: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/harry-lloyd/
1633933270305.png

1633933088057.png

He was Harry Reginald Lloyd.


Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
 
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the croucher

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It's been confirmed today that the 1921 Collingwood player who has been known in AFL records as Harry Lloyd is now to be known as Reg. This change has been accepted by the AFL folks.

His page/bio on Collingwood Forever has been updated to reflect the change: https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/harry-lloyd/
View attachment 1257998
View attachment 1257997
He was Harry Reginald Lloyd.


Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*
Ah, of all things in this detective work we do, a surprise on the family tree !

I was checking Ancestry for further background, thinking of ways to update the Wikipedia page for him..upon checking his ancestors noticed a name which was familiar to me.

Turns out "Reg" Lloyd was my 2nd cousin 2x removed. :)
 

35Daicos

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Ah, of all things in this detective work we do, a surprise on the family tree !

I was checking Ancestry for further background, thinking of ways to update the Wikipedia page for him..upon checking his ancestors noticed a name which was familiar to me.

Turns out "Reg" Lloyd was my 2nd cousin 2x removed. :)
That's a great story! FWIW we decided he should be known as Reg rather than Harry because of evidence such as this:
1634104226302.png

1634105215910.png

1634103973541.png

1634104440291.png


His brother Keith was born in Melbourne in 1908, so the family must have moved from down your way to there some time between 1899 and 1908. There's a K. Lloyd playing at Balwyn at the same time Reg was there, and that's highly likely to be Keith:
1634104994605.png
 

the croucher

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That's a great story! FWIW we decided he should be known as Reg rather than Harry because of evidence such as this:
View attachment 1259559
View attachment 1259581
View attachment 1259553
View attachment 1259569

His brother Keith was born in Melbourne in 1908, so the family must have moved from down your way to there some time between 1899 and 1908. There's a K. Lloyd playing at Balwyn at the same time Reg was there, and that's highly likely to be Keith:
View attachment 1259576
fascinating the minutiae you can discover at times...have checked the Launceston property rate rolls today and found H R Lloyd's family were at his birth address of 83 Balfour Street in the November 1900 listing, but by the October 1901 issue the family had moved away, so presume that 11 month period is when they moved to Melbourne.
 

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