Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[RedmanWasHere]

Just for good measure here's something that was posted regarding Jonathan O'Rourke on another forum back in 2012. It refers to an article from the AFL website (the link no longer works) that said Basil O'Rourke was the player's grandfather:- https://www.yellowandblack.com.au/community/threads/2012-draft-thread.89286/page-29

Like this bit from the article on O'Rourke

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/149882/default.aspx

There's some football genes in the family that might explain O'Rourke's talent.

Stephen's dad (and Jonathan's grandfather) is Basil O'Rourke, who played four games for Richmond in 1951. Basil's brother, Jack, was a star for the Tigers in 44 games between 1949-53, kicking 134 goals.

Jack was a high-flying full forward, with charisma and an accurate kick. He would have had a much longer career, but chose to leave the club after it had sacked his favourite coach, Jack Dyer, at the end of 1952. O'Rourke played only a few games under Dyer's successor before giving the game away at 25. Jack's father Jack Snr. also played 63 games in the 1920s for St Kilda and Fitzroy.

Gonna bump this.

Basil and Jack's father, Jack Sr, married a Morden (Beryl) whose brothers, Jim and Clem, were VFL/AFL players themselves.

Jack Sr was, himself, a VFL/AFL player.
Likewise his brother, Frank.

Not as illustrious as the Ablett/Tuck, Kennedy/Ball/Russo, Aked/Edwards/O'Bree, Pannam/Jenkin/Richards/Vandersluys and Merrett/Hawker/McCartney/Baxter/Smith combos but it's numerous all the same.

ETA that former Richmond player George Smeaton is also part of this Morden madness.

 

[35Daicos]

ThePope - Could you, or anyone who is able to make changes on Wikipedia, please fix the error in Alf Dummett's name. It has his second name as Edward, but it should be Edwin:

 

[the croucher]

ThePope - Could you, or anyone who is able to make changes on Wikipedia, please fix the error in Alf Dummett's name. It has his second name as Edward, but it should be Edwin:
View attachment 1270949
View attachment 1270950
View attachment 1270948
View attachment 1270953

Fixed it.

 

[35Daicos]

Fixed it.

Thanks very much!

 

[ThePope]

Fixed it.

, but you forgot to fix Wikidata!

 

[35Daicos]

This one was actually changed in the AFL's records (as well as Collingwood's) quite a while ago, but it seems word hasn't been passed on to the likes of AustralianFootball.com and AFL Tables:

Both have Paddy Gilchrist in the Collingwood lineup, but his place was taken by Jim Ambler. On Collingwood Forever, Gilchrist's name has been removed from the lineup, but owing to a 'technical glitch' Ambler's name hasn't been added.

The following week The Herald has:

That obviously suggests Gilchrist didn’t play in Rd. 13 against Carlton. The Herald on Sat. 20 July doesn’t have the football coverage so must be an earlier edition.

Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*

 

[Oliver Gigacz]

This one was actually changed in the AFL's records (as well as Collingwood's) quite a while ago, but it seems word hasn't been passed on to the likes of AustralianFootball.com and AFL Tables:
View attachment 1273672
View attachment 1273673
Both have Paddy Gilchrist in the Collingwood lineup, but his place was taken by Jim Ambler. On Collingwood Forever, Gilchrist's name has been removed from the lineup, but owing to a 'technical glitch' Ambler's name hasn't been added.

View attachment 1273686

The following week The Herald has:
View attachment 1273683
That obviously suggests Gilchrist didn’t play in Rd. 13 against Carlton. The Herald on Sat. 20 July doesn’t have the football coverage so must be an earlier edition.
View attachment 1273690

View attachment 1273691

Oliver Gigacz
*Paul*

Thanks Daicos not sure how that slipped through, AF is now up to date.

 

[Oliver Gigacz]

May have found one here...

Urban Duniam (SM 1950) is listed in AFL records as having a DOB of 29/05/1931 but is missing a DOD. After a quick search with no success I tried names sounding similar to Urban as it is somewhat uncommon and low and behold I came across Irwan William Duniam with the exact same DOB...

SM in 1950 also had Erwin Dornau so perhaps Irwan D became Urban as a result of there already being another Irwin/Erwin D at the club. Regardless I think it's pretty likely that Urban Duniam is indeed this Irwin William Duniam.

 

[35Daicos]

May have found one here...

Urban Duniam (SM 1950) is listed in AFL records as having a DOB of 29/05/1931 but is missing a DOD. After a quick search with no success I tried names sounding similar to Urban as it is somewhat uncommon and low and behold I came across Irwan William Duniam with the exact same DOB...

View attachment 1276257

SM in 1950 also had Erwin Dornau so perhaps Irwan D became Urban as a result of there already being another Irwin/Erwin D at the club. Regardless I think it's pretty likely that Urban Duniam is indeed this Irwin William Duniam.

Interesting, for sure! Genealogy SA has:

And Ryerson has:

Edit: I just noticed this^ was brought up in another thread only recently!

\

He was still at South Melbourne in 1954:

He may have gone to Geelong in 1955:

This is likely to be him living down Geelong way just a few years later:

So Irwin William Duniam (in 1963) lived at Geelong and worked as a fitter, and Urban Wiliam Duniam (in 1954) lived in Melbourne and was a fitter and turner! I think it has to be a near certainty that it's the same person, and that he changed his first name somewhere along the way for some reason!

This was in the Football Record 4 years ago:

This was probably him at South Melbourne in 1948:

The name Duniam appears quite often in South's thirds team in the Football Record in 1949, so (if that was the 1950 senior player) the comment that he "travelled from Seymour to join South Melbourne in 1950" seems a bit odd.

 

[Bandit55]

Interesting, for sure! Genealogy SA has:
View attachment 1276277

And Ryerson has:
View attachment 1276278
Edit: I just noticed this^ was brought up in another thread only recently!

View attachment 1276281\

He was still at South Melbourne in 1954:
View attachment 1276293

He may have gone to Geelong in 1955:
View attachment 1276292

This is likely to be him living down Geelong way just a few years later:
View attachment 1276299

So Irwin William Duniam (in 1963) lived at Geelong and worked as a fitter, and Urban Wiliam Duniam (in 1954) lived in Melbourne and was a fitter and turner! I think it has to be a near certainty that it's the same person, and that he changed his first name somewhere along the way for some reason!

This was in the Football Record 4 years ago:
View attachment 1276307
This was probably him at South Melbourne in 1948:
View attachment 1276541
The name Duniam appears quite often in South's thirds team in the Football Record in 1949, so (if that was the 1950 senior player) the comment that he "travelled from Seymour to join South Melbourne in 1950" seems a bit odd.

I’m sure that I had some dealings with him through work in the mid 1990s and he was living in Ocean Grove at the time.

I can’t recall whether he called himself Irwin or Urban, though. Didn’t realise at the time that he was an ex-footballer.


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[35Daicos]

I’m sure that I had some dealings with him through work in the mid 1990s and he was living in Ocean Grove at the time.

I can’t recall whether he called himself Irwin or Urban, though. Didn’t realise at the time that he was an ex-footballer.


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This photo is on Ancestry:

Look familiar?!

 

[Bandit55]

This photo is on Ancestry:
View attachment 1276602
Look familiar?!

Sorry, I remember the name, not his face. He wasn’t a regular, I would have met with him three or four times at the most.


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[35Daicos]

Querying the official tally of 153 games for Syd Coventry as captain of Collingwood that is cited in various places including the AFL Record Season Guide. This would include the 144 games where he was official captain for seasons 1927-34, but also implies he led the side in the 9 games in 1925-26 where Charlie Tyson was absent.

Happy with the four 1926 games R14-17 as Coventry is listed in Football Record as vice-captain; however in 1925 the Record lists Harry Saunders as vc in multiple editions throughout the season. Tyson was absent in 1925 R3 and R7-10; Saunders missed R3 but played in R7-10. Should Coventry's tally be revised to 149 games, with Saunders credited with R7-10?

Further to this, does anyone have a definitive list of captains for each match and team?

The AFL folks have now approved this change (this refers to Rd. 7-10 1925):

So Syd Coventry loses 4 games as captain, Harry Saunders gains 4. The figure will be amended in the Season Guide list of most games as Collingwood captain section.

Games Records

Games record-holders and more

forever.collingwoodfc.com.au

^This is what it did look like on Collingwood Forever, and it now has:

 

[stemline]

Sorry I might have asked a similar question before... but what is the process here - have all the items raised here in the last 6-8 months been sent to the AFL and assessed?

I was recently notified by Peter Haby at Hawthorn that the AFL has recognised the Ray Whelan/Russell Whelan change...

So from a Hawthorn perspective I'm wondering about the status of the Jim Oakes/Leopold Alfred Oakes query as well.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack Bennett (Melb) has DOB 13 February 1910 and DOD 17 May 1975 in AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Encyclopedia, demonwiki

However in 2015 someone (stating they were a family member) changed DOB on wikipedia to 21 February 1913 - this makes sense if the player was Francis Jack Bennett, born to Francis Alex BENNETT and Frances Theresa GRIEVES in 1913 (BDM 3275 / 1913) and Victorian BDM / Probate records show this Francis Jack Bennett died on 26 Jun 1975 (close, but not the exact date of death in current records)

This newspaper article from 1933 states the player was a twenty year old in Aug 1933 which matches the 1913 date.

However existing football record birth/death dates seem to be for Stanley John BENNETT born to John Hugh BENNETT and Jessie PHILLIPS in 1910 and died in May 1975 (cremated on 22 May 1975).

I can't find anything that clearly identifies the player in Trove - can anyone work out who the player really was and if wiki is wrong or football records are wrong?

 

[rbartlett]

I thought Id pass along to our team here.
For those who haven't heard, Ron The Bear passed away this week
There is a thread on the main board and the Richmond board should you wish to make any posts.

 

[rbartlett]

Sorry I might have asked a similar question before... but what is the process here - have all the items raised here in the last 6-8 months been sent to the AFL and assessed?

I was recently notified by Peter Haby at Hawthorn that the AFL has recognised the Ray Whelan/Russell Whelan change...

So from a Hawthorn perspective I'm wondering about the status of the Jim Oakes/Leopold Alfred Oakes query as well.

All posts up to March 2021 have been submitted to the AFL, as per the spreadsheet most accept, only a few rejected.

There may be posts AFTER that date that the AFL has actioned because they are told directly by relevant posters, or by the club.
But anything after March 2021 on this thread hasnt been submitted to the AFL through the spreadsheet process we have.
It probably wont be submitted until SRodgers advises me when he is comfortable to receive the info

 

[stemline]

Cheers for the explanation.

 

[35Daicos]

Jack Bennett (Melb) has DOB 13 February 1910 and DOD 17 May 1975 in AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Encyclopedia, demonwiki

However in 2015 someone (stating they were a family member) changed DOB on wikipedia to 21 February 1913 - this makes sense if the player was Francis Jack Bennett, born to Francis Alex BENNETT and Frances Theresa GRIEVES in 1913 (BDM 3275 / 1913) and Victorian BDM / Probate records show this Francis Jack Bennett died on 26 Jun 1975 (close, but not the exact date of death in current records)

This newspaper article from 1933 states the player was a twenty year old in Aug 1933 which matches the 1913 date.

However existing football record birth/death dates seem to be for Stanley John BENNETT born to John Hugh BENNETT and Jessie PHILLIPS in 1910 and died in May 1975 (cremated on 22 May 1975).

I can't find anything that clearly identifies the player in Trove - can anyone work out who the player really was and if wiki is wrong or football records are wrong?

The Football Record backs that age (born 1913) up as well:

(page 12)

It's repeated two weeks later (week 3 finals):

This backs it up somewhat as well (link on Demonwiki page):

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243168187 (4 June 1934)

This is on Ancestry:

Though it's hardly conclusive, I think there's a very reasonable similarity between the Melbourne player (1934 photo) and the chap in the middle of the one above, especially as the photos were taken at least a fair few years apart. I'm quite sure that will be the same person.

That DOD of 6 June 1975 is repeated elsewhere on Ancestry, but doesn't seem to be correct (it doesn't match the date probate records have either):

I think the fact that the age shown in the Football Record aligns with a 1913 (not 1910) year of birth is really significant. Whoever it was that made the changes on Wikipedia seems to have things right for this ex-player; though it would have been nice if he/she could have clarified things somewhat!!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jim Renouf (Richmond Reserves, Fitzroy, Port Melb, Frankston) was born on 29 Mar 1940 but has no death date recorded in football sources I can find.

However, this article from The Age in 1979 shows he died quite young, in 1977:

Vic BDM has entry registered in 1978 (not sure why it didn't get registered in 1977)
Name: RENOUF James,
Parents: Ellen HEYWOOD, William RENOUF
Born: Regent, Victoria
Died: Dandenong, Victoria
Age: 37
Reg: 2153/1978

On Ancestry we have the following newspaper clipping from 1977:

...and Springvale Cemetery has burial date of 28 July 1977

Summary: Death date for Jim Renouf to be recorded as 26 July 1977

 

[ThePope]

Jim Renouf (Richmond Reserves, Fitzroy, Port Melb, Frankston) was born on 29 Mar 1940 but has no death date recorded in football sources I can find.

However, this article from The Age in 1979 shows he died quite young, in 1977:
View attachment 1280211

Do you have a date or link for that article?

 

[35Daicos]

Do you have a date or link for that article?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Billy Billett (Northcote, Brunswick, Fitzroy, Yarraville, SM) is listed as having DOB 21 May 1888 and DOD 28 January 1956 in football records.
These dates are for William Leo Billett (although Ancestry 57 trees incorrectly have 2 Feb 1888 as DOB, NSW BDM records confirm 21 May 1888 as registered birth date). Born Parramatta, married Agnes Sutherland in Oct 1912 and had at least 6 children in Sydney in the period 1913-1926. Can't find him in electoral records but this article shows he was a tram conductor in Sydney from 1911-1917.

The VFA Project shows W. Billett played for Northcote from 1912-1914 and then Brunswick in 1915 before playing for Fitzroy in 1918, Yarraville and then SM in 1923.

Clearly William Leo Billett is not the footballer but my searches of Trove, Vic BDM and Ancestry have failed to turn up a viable candidate - anyone else able to work out who he was? This article from 1922 has a photo of him but I haven't found any personal info about him at all from football related articles.

notes:
* I have found no evidence he had any middle name, sources citing a middle initial "L" seem to have taken this from William Leo
* Not convinced he was a William - he is referred to as Bill but possibly could be Wilbur or some other name variant
* Given football career of 1912 to 1925 likely birth date of 1890-1895

 

[35Daicos]

Billy Billett (Northcote, Brunswick, Fitzroy, Yarraville, SM) is listed as having DOB 21 May 1888 and DOD 28 January 1956 in football records.
These dates are for William Leo Billett (although Ancestry 57 trees incorrectly have 2 Feb 1888 as DOB, NSW BDM records confirm 21 May 1888 as registered birth date). Born Parramatta, married Agnes Sutherland in Oct 1912 and had at least 6 children in Sydney in the period 1913-1926. Can't find him in electoral records but this article shows he was a tram conductor in Sydney from 1911-1917.

The VFA Project shows W. Billett played for Northcote from 1912-1914 and then Brunswick in 1915 before playing for Fitzroy in 1918, Yarraville and then SM in 1923.

Clearly William Leo Billett is not the footballer but my searches of Trove, Vic BDM and Ancestry have failed to turn up a viable candidate - anyone else able to work out who he was? This article from 1922 has a photo of him but I haven't found any personal info about him at all from football related articles.

notes:
* I have found no evidence he had any middle name, sources citing a middle initial "L" seem to have taken this from William Leo
* Not convinced he was a William - he is referred to as Bill but possibly could be Wilbur or some other name variant
* Given football career of 1912 to 1925 likely birth date of 1890-1895

It's certainly not an easy one! He went back to Yarraville in July 1923, and played out the season there.
In 1924 South Melbourne granted him a clearance to Collingwood:

He didn't play senior football there, and it doesn't look as if he played "seconds" either, though he did play in the pre-season. It's probably just a mistake that he's J. Billett in this case.

Billy coached Yea: https://websites.mygameday.app/club_info.cgi?c=0-6211-81076-0-0&sID=163658

A George Billett was living at Yea in 1925, and there must be a strong chance of a connection with the footballer:

That same couple were living at Preston at some stage in 1925:

And at Abbotsford in 1924:

They were also at South Melbourne in 1924, which would fit in with the player getting the clearance from South to Collingwood that year:

At Northcote in 1912:

It seems to be that pretty much wherever George and Elizabeth Mary Ann Billett lived Billy Billett played football for a club in that area.

That couple married in 1896:

Looking at this, Phillip should be the oldest child.

This is one of their sons, and as he was born in 1896 I presume he was the first born (unless Phillip Francis was born before they married):

There must be plenty of doubt that he'd have been the 1912 Northcote player due to his age, but it's certainly not out of the question. I'm wondering if he called himself Billy as his father was also George, though it might have been simply a nickname taken from the surname, and perhaps people thought it was his proper name!

 

[Bandit55]

It's certainly not an easy one! He went back to Yarraville in July 1923, and played out the season there.
In 1924 South Melbourne granted him a clearance to Collingwood:
View attachment 1284839
He didn't play senior football there, and it doesn't look as if he played "seconds" either, though he did play in the pre-season. It's probably just a mistake that he's J. Billett in this case.
View attachment 1284859
View attachment 1284840
View attachment 1284842
Billy coached Yea: https://websites.mygameday.app/club_info.cgi?c=0-6211-81076-0-0&sID=163658
View attachment 1284864
A George Billett was living at Yea in 1925, and there must be a strong chance of a connection with the footballer:
View attachment 1284847
View attachment 1284865
That same couple were living at Preston at some stage in 1925:
View attachment 1284848
View attachment 1284849

And at Abbotsford in 1924:
View attachment 1284851
They were also at South Melbourne in 1924, which would fit in with the player getting the clearance from South to Collingwood that year:
View attachment 1284853
At Northcote in 1912:
View attachment 1284871
It seems to be that pretty much wherever George and Elizabeth Mary Ann Billett lived Billy Billett played football for a club in that area.

That couple married in 1896:
View attachment 1284860
View attachment 1284868
Looking at this, Phillip should be the oldest child.

This is one of their sons, and as he was born in 1896 I presume he was the first born (unless Phillip Francis was born before they married):
View attachment 1284869
There must be plenty of doubt that he'd have been the 1912 Northcote player due to his age, but it's certainly not out of the question. I'm wondering if he called himself Billy as his father was also George, though it might have been simply a nickname taken from the surname, and perhaps people thought it was his proper name!

I think you have found the right family and Phillip is ‘Bill’. The death notice for the father is in The Age on 13 May 1946 and mentions Bill, but not Phillip.

I’m thinking that Phillip was born at the latest in 1894, given that he is on the Electoral Roll in 1912. He’d have to be at least 18 to be on the Roll.


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